Please help with my upgrade...

adamwillan

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Hi

I am sorry my requirements are not going to be particularly exciting as low budget but I would really appreciate any help anyone may be able to give me. I have spend hours and hours reading forums trying to understand as much as I can in order to make the best possible purchase for my available budget, but it is so complex and so many variables to consider!

I have had for the previous 5 years a Yamaha V361 av receiver and 5.1 Yamaha nx7 speakers (or something similar), but I rarely ever watch TV/films and 95% of it's use is for music. I was thinking that I would be able to achieve much better quality by investing in a hifi system rather than the av system, which seems to be the case from the reading that I have done.

I have got a budget of around £700, I am assuming this will be enough to buy a worth while upgrade from my current set up. Sorry for the detail to come but not sure how much of it is important. I do not own a cd player so all of the music that I listen to is either from my:

- laptop which has a Toshlink or regular headphone socket out
- dj mixer which has 2x 6.35 mm balanced jack sockets out (but I currently use a jack to rca cable and do not believe it is common for a home system to have a dual 6.36 input)
- Sony A865 mp3 player with a regular rca to phono cable
- Audio-technica Ath m50 headphones

The music that I listen/mix is mainly house but some techno/disco/swing so I would want the system to be able to handle bass well.

The speakers that I was going to choose between were the monitor bx2 or the Tannoy V4s, am leaning to the Tannoy but purely because I have in my head that floorspeakers would handle bass better than bookshelves. I picked these two due to good ratings on whathifi and being in the right price range of £250ish. Is there better?

The amplifiers that I were looking at are the Cambridge audio 651 or the MARANTZ PM7004 both around £450. Again I was leaning towards the cambridge as it has got a built in dac where I dont believe the Marantz has. Is my understand correct that a dac is important if using a laptop as the input?

My other option is to buy a cheaper amp like the Yamaha S500 or the MARANTZ PM6004 both around £250-£300 and also a dac for around 200. I guess the bit I do not understand is - Is it better to buy a better amp and not use a dac or a cheaper amp and use a dac, or is the cambridge the best of both?

Thanks in advance for the help, I am sorry for the length of the message. It has been very frustrating trying to buy a system without knowing enough about the technology (and I thought I was pretty good compared to most).

Adam
 
The DAC in the new Cambridge 651A, to the best of my knowledge, is a USB only DAC; no optical or coaxial inputs.

The Cambridge DACMagic for £200, has one Optical, two Coaxial, and one USB channel. These are all selectable, so you could have 4 digital sources connected and switch between them.

The Yamaha AS500 is an exceptional amp for the money. Though I'm not sure I would rank it with the Cambridge or Marantz, still it is close, and the Yamaha is a highly rated amp with 85w/ch, Phono In, Sub Out, etc... and a modest £239 price tag.

Judging from what you have said, that £700 amp is primarily buying you just an Amp and possibly a DAC. Were speakers supposed to be included in that price?

It is possible to buy DACs in the roughly £40 to £100 price range, and they may do the job for you ... or not, it is hard to say.

If we assume £239 for the Yamaha, though you might be able to do better, and another £200 for the Cambridge DACMagic 100 for a total of £440, from a £700 budget that leaves £260 for speakers.

Quality speakers are not going to have heavy droning bass, that's just the way it is. However, they can and do have very good bass response.

As well as the Tannoy Mercury V4, (£269/pr SuperFi) also consider -

Wharfedale Diamond 10.4
Acoustic Energy Neo 3 - said to have impressive bass by those who have them

I have seen both these speakers for just under £300/pr. I think AudioAffair.co.uk has the Acoustic Energy Neo 3 for just under £300/pr. I'm not sure where I saw the Diamond 10.4, but a Google-UK Shopping Search should turn up the best prices.

In bookshelf with good bass response the Diamond 10.2 and the Monitor Audio BX2 both with 6.5" bass drivers and response to 40hz or less. The most expensive, the BX2 are right in your price range at £250/pr.

There is one other speaker worth considering, but this is not a tiny speaker, twin 8" bass drivers with an 8" midrange, in a substantial cabinet. Don't let the price throw you, these were originally £450/pr DJ speakers -

Wharfedale XARUS5000-BLACK from Hughes Direct

Excellent speaker at that amazingly low price. For that price, most who have them are overjoyed. At the original price of £450/pr, there are probably speakers that are more refined, but at the amazingly low price of £179/pr, I can't think of anything that will touch them for the money.

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bluewizard
 
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The DAC in the new Cambridge 651A, to the best of my knowledge, is a USB only DAC; no optical or coaxial inputs.

The Cambridge DACMagic for £200, has one Optical, two Coaxial, and one USB channel. These are all selectable, so you could have 4 digital sources connected and switch between them.

The Yamaha AS500 is an exceptional amp for the money. Though I'm not sure I would rank it with the Cambridge or Marantz, still it is close, and the Yamaha is a highly rated amp with 85w/ch, Phono In, Sub Out, etc... and a modest £239 price tag.

Judging from what you have said, that £700 amp is primarily buying you just an Amp and possibly a DAC. Were speakers supposed to be included in that price?

It is possible to buy DACs in the roughly £40 to £100 price range, and they may do the job for you ... or not, it is hard to say.

If we assume £239 for the Yamaha, though you might be able to do better, and another £200 for the Cambridge DACMagic 100 for a total of £440, from a £700 budget that leaves £260 for speakers.

Quality speakers are not going to have heavy droning bass, that's just the way it is. However, they can and do have very good bass response.

As well as the Tannoy Mercury V4, (£269/pr SuperFi) also consider -

Wharfedale Diamond 10.4
Acoustic Energy Neo 3 - said to have impressive bass by those who have them

I have seen both these speakers for just under £300/pr. I think AudioAffair.co.uk has the Acoustic Energy Neo 3 for just under £300/pr. I'm not sure where I saw the Diamond 10.4, but a Google-UK Shopping Search should turn up the best prices.

In bookshelf with good bass response the Diamond 10.2 and the Monitor Audio BX2 both with 6.5" bass drivers and response to 40hz or less. The most expensive, the BX2 are right in your price range at £250/pr.

There is one other speaker worth considering, but this is not a tiny speaker, twin 8" bass drivers with an 8" midrange, in a substantial cabinet. Don't let the price throw you, these were originally £450/pr DJ speakers -

Wharfedale XARUS5000-BLACK from Hughes Direct

Excellent speaker at that amazingly low price. For that price, most who have them are overjoyed. At the original price of £450/pr, there are probably speakers that are more refined, but at the amazingly low price of £179/pr, I can't think of anything that will touch them for the money.

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bluewizard

Thank you for the prompt and thorough response. That is a great help with the speakers. Have just had a look at the wharfedales, they look like beasts.

The confusion with the budget I think was that I wasn't sure whether I needed a dac. I thought it may be better to spend all my money on an amp rather than a lesser amp and a dac to go with. I assume from how that you have written the response, that a dac is a fundamental component to the system that is a necessity rather than a nice to have (which rules out the 7004 Marantz . Speakers are a must as I have only currently got a cheap £70 5.1 Yamaha set which will destroy anything good I put into them. I think I could probably live with just a usb input in to the cambridge as my mixer will have to be a rca connection regardless and I do not plan to put my ps3 or virgin tivo box in to the hifi.

I really appreciate you spending the time to give me a response.

Thanks

Adam
 
The problem with having a onboard dac is that if you wish to upgrade that alone, you can't. Your are stuck with it. Also not many amps that have on boards dacs have more than 1 or 2 inputs. That is fine if you never going to have more than 1 digital source, but if you fancy adding another, then problem starts.

The CA 651 usb dac i would of thought to be a decent one , but again limited to only usb.

However, there is a silver lining to this,

a) if not adverse to it, second-hand can bring you more for your money and possibly achieve to get a amp like the PM7003 or ones thereof and a ext dac and speakers.

b) Consider the Behringer UCA202 USB Dac, £23. This has had high praise for the money spent by those who have or heard it. They were also using it in the same way you are proposing. Worth at least a look see.

I'm bias towards marantz an AE because i have them in my house :D. I used a marantz pm7001/Neo 3 combo for a good few years and the bass from that was pleasing enough to keep me smiling (drivers are 5"/130mm). However, they do require around 8"-12" of space behind it for best sound and are not really keen on hard flooring (wood/laminated) but work well nonetheless.
If you can get them for less than 300, you done well, but £ for £ the Xarus5000 are hard to beat for impact. Not the most refined in sound or highest quality build, but boy, they pack a punch, sound good and can handle the most hardiest abuse. Proper party speakers
 
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As to the DAC, it depends on what you need it for. If you simply want to connect your computer, then a basic USB DAC is all you need, and the Behringer UCS202 USB DAC seems to do a fine job if your computer music collection is CD quality or less. Bigger better more expensive DACs will allow higher resolution files, and have more independent connections.

For example, the DACMagic 100 has four individually selectable input - 1 Optiacal, 2 Coaxial, 1 USB. Nice because you can connect your TV and Computer and have inputs left over. But it cost £200.

At £25 each, you can't really go wrong with the low cost Behringer. If nothing else it is low priced enough to be a stop gap until you can afford a better DAC.

Or, again, if you have a single purpose need for the DAC, such as a computer interface, the Cambridge 651A should be a very fine amp

So, on the DAC, you need to look long and hard at what you need a DAC for.

Personally, I solved the problem by buying a TV that had ANALOG AUDIO OUT, so the DAC in the TV does my decoding for me. I don't play computer digital music on my Stereo system. I have a second somewhat low cost stereo on my computer and just use the basic analog Audio Out of the computer, which is good enough for my computer listening needs.

So, let's lay this out -

£_25/ea = Behringer USB only DAC
£450/ea = Marantz PM7004 amp (or Cambridge 651A)
£300/pr = Acoustic Energy Neo 3 floorstanding speakers
-------------
£775 = total

The same system with the 5-STAR rated Tannoy Mercury V2 is £745. The same system with the Diamond 10.4 is roughly the same at £775. While normally £330/pr, I have seen the Diamond 10.4 are low as £299/pr.

If the Floorstanding seem a bit overwhelming to you, then the Diamond 10.2 and the Monitor Audio BX2 both have very good bass response and save you about £50 to £100, which will pay for a better DAC, or put money into your pocket.

But before you jump in, decide precisely what you need a DAC for? If this is a single pupose computer interface, than I say start with the Low Cost Behringer, and see how it goes. Though you do have room in you budget for the Cambridge 651A and some really nice speakers. So, that is an option too.

Next, decide what you want and what you can handle for speakers. The three I mentioned in the roughly £300/pr range floorstanding are both excellent quality and excellent value. The two Bookshelf I mentioned also excellent quality and value, and generally less money. Both with pretty outstanding bass response number for a bookshelf, and both very well balanced speakers.

Lastly, if you want Monster Party Speakers, there just isn't anything that can beat the Xarus 5000 for the extremely low price of £179/pr. As mentioned, they are not the most refined, but the do sound good, and at that price, there simply is nothing to compare them to. There is no second choice at the low price in a powerful Monster Party Speaker.

Here are the comments from several people who have these speakers, some of whom paid substantially more for the speakers -

RecommendedBuys UK: Wharfedale XARUS XR-5000 review & best buys

And more of the same -

Wharfedale Xarus 5000 reviews - Compare prices and deals - Reevoo

Try to keep this in perspective. The people who bought large party speakers like this, wanted large Party Speakers. So, they are please that they got what they wanted. For £179/pr, excellent, but if I have £300 or more to spend, these speakers would not be on my list. But conversely, for under £200, there is simply nothing that can touch them for both power and sound quality.

It is a very thin line, and only you can decide which side of that line you are on.

So -

1.) DAC - What are your needs? If simply a computer interface, then a low cost basic USB DAC. If you need more then get more. Though, for £25, you can get by for now, and think about an upgrade at some time in the future.

2.) SPEAKERS - What are your real needs and limitations. If the Floorstanding are just too over the top, then you will find absolutely no one crying over owning Diamond 10.2 and Monitor Audio BX2. However, if Floorstanding are a real workable option, then Acoustic Energy Neo 3, Diamond 10.4, and Tannoy Mercury V4 are all worthy speakers.

3.) AMP - Your amp choice is tied to you analysis of your DAC needs. If you simply need a USB interface, then the Cambridge might be a good option. Combine that with £300 speaker and you are set. The Marantz PM7004 is a very good amp, and if you don't mind starting with a more basic USA DAC, it is certainly within your reach, and certainly a very worth amp.

You have a range of all very good choices at or near you stated budget, it is just a matter of refining your wants and needs and letting those guide you.

Steve/bluewizard
 
Wow that is a long and informative response, thank you.

Definitely no issue with the floor standers, it seems to be the case that they better suit my music taste (if better bass response) plus the extra cost is made up by what I would have to pay for stands for the bookshelves anyway. Also yeah party speakers may not be that necessary, I play music loudly but as its a flat (with brick walls thankfully) it doesn't need to be like a club. I will also look where is the nearest place I can view the acoustic speakers.

The main concern for me around the dac was that until a couple of days ago I hadn't even heard of them and was not sure on the importance of them to a system. From everything I have read they are a vital component in a laptop to hifi system.

What I have not described properly is that I only listen to around 50% of my music through my laptop, the rest is through djing. I am now concerned that if I do not have a dac for my mixer that it will not sound good.

The mixer is powered by a usb link to the laptop but all sound is output from the mixers own soundcard and the only output being a twin balanced 6mm jack. Currently as my amp does not have a way to accept jacks as an input, I use a twin 6mm jack to twin rca cable.
With my limited knowledge is it correct that I will not be able to avoid using the mixer as the dac as their will be no way around me avoiding the mixer doing the converting to analogue? Being that it is a decent mid range mixer maybe this is not a worry and the soundcard will be better than a laptops?? I am not sure if I am even making sense... ie is it correct that the Behringer would not be able to make a difference for the mixer?

It is called a Novation twitch controller and below I have pasted the only mention in the manual of dac plus the details of its output.

Key Performance figures
Real World ADC Dynamic Range: 102 dB (A-weighted)
Real World DAC Dynamic Range: 100 dB (A-weighted)
Chipset ADC/DAC Dynamic Range: 114 dB (A-weighted)
Latency (Minimum Buffer Size): 77 samples

analogue audio outputs (¼” trS)
Electronically balanced output
Maximum Output Level (0 dBFS): +7.0 dBu
THD+N: 0.0075% (-1 dBFS output, 20 Hz/22 kHz
bandpass filter)

I am maybe over thinking the purchase, it may be down to going in to richer sounds and basically just listening and seeing if I think it is worth spending that much money on compared to my current set up, which does not have much finesse but does have power and with the music enhancer over 5 channels fills the room well.

Thanks again
 
Hi I have one word to say .. go pro one choice Krk pro powered studio monitors . Awsome on any music very very deep loud controled bass lots of detail and astonishing dynamics The model is KRK VXT 8. go have a listen . Awsome build quality balanced inputs very very heavy construction.. IMO awsome
 
Just connect to your mixer with two 1/4 trs to xlr balanced cables and plug directly into the speakers all very simplzz
 
Hi I have one word to say .. go pro one choice Krk pro powered studio monitors . Awsome on any music very very deep loud controled bass lots of detail and astonishing dynamics The model is KRK VXT 8. go have a listen . Awsome build quality balanced inputs very very heavy construction.. IMO awsome

Ha they do look awesome but maybe out of my price range paying £900 for two speakers that would not even allow me to play music from my laptop.
 

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