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plasma vs. crt vs. rptv vs. LCD

Discussion in 'LCD & LED LCD TVs' started by keyser, Sep 28, 2002.

  1. keyser

    keyser
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    crt cons: geometry escecially in 36", convergence, focus in the the edges is sometimes off(not really a noticable problem is it), limited size and other problems like dirty sides, dark pathes, flicker

    rptv cons: lack of contrast, convergence, bad in bright rooms, limited viewing angles(does that really bother anyone)... anything else??(just picture wise)

    plasma cons: not black enough blacks in dark conditions, lip sync problems?, fan noise on some models?, price, limited life time

    Would this be a correct analasis by me?? What would be the best tv to get picture wise, not a crt because currently they don´t come larger than 36"(except the curved loewe), Progressive component to a rear projection tv or plasma, which is better? What is the best possible? VGA connections from dvd.. does that exist? pal/ntsc progressive via component is that the best possible.. can scalers or line doublers (havent got a clue what they do) improve the picture in that setup??
     
  2. baileych

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    In your cons for plasma you list limited life. I would say that current uncertainty about lifespan would be more accurate.

    I know of only a few people with CRT TV's in, or older than, the current 10-20 year estimate on how long a plasma screen will last. On the other I know several people with CRT TV's that have died in the 5-10 year lifespan bracket.

    I don't know about RPTV's but I don't think that there's a great difference in expected lifespan between any of the technologies. After ten years you'll probably want to upgrade to the latest micro laser array projection system or whatever anyway. ;)

    Charles.
     
  3. keyser

    keyser
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    So... what will give me the best picture. Plasma or rear projection??
     
  4. LV426

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    Plasma.
     
  5. Dixie

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    Plasma is best by far.
     
  6. keyser

    keyser
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    Why is that, they have contrast problems like rear projections.. and would you say that a plasma image is better than a CRT? Is then a good progressive dvd player and a plasma the best picture you can get, would scalers or line doublers do anything to improve that image, are they maybe built in plasmas?(don´t have a clue what scalers and line doublers are)

    http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-progressive-shootout-12-2000.html

    Why don´t all magazines review like that.. brillantly detailed. Magazines like what hifi give a full house of stars to the weirdest products and seem to downplay all faults. And don´t test the products as professionaly as this, I think they just compare scenes and don´t actually check for all the faults that could be there or am I wrong?
     
  7. sharper

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    Have had both and as good as my Tosh RP was I would not swap my Panny plasma for anything currently available for UK use. In the US though that's a different question I would probable go for the hi res version of the Panny 5.

    Plasma is great but please allow some dosh to get the thing connected

    AND

    allow some more dosh for the new DVD player with Pal and NTSC Progressive Scan
     
  8. Gliese 581c

    Gliese 581c
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    Ive owned Sony KV32FX60, Sony KV28FX65 (still own it, for my bedroom) Sony KV36FS70, all crt. The best for picture from them 3 is the 36FS70. Now owning a plasma, the pic quality is by far better than the crt's Ive owned. Plus, theres nothing better than sitting down in front of the plasma with ma feet up, it puts a permanent smile on ma face. As for rear-projection in my opinion, it shouldnt even be in the running. They are sorry excuses for tv's. Unless you want a 3 million inch crap picture compared to crt or plasma staring at you, then stay clear.

    Plasma by faaaaaar.

    Sharper : Come on you SPURS !!!!!
     
  9. keyser

    keyser
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    Charles.. well the manufacturer say themselves that the expected lifespan of a plasma is about 10 years with 2 hour use every day, if i remember correctly(someone else figure out the hours on that), so that is the lifetime that one should expect. There could very well be faulty plasmas that would give out sooner, but CRT´s last much longer if they aren´t faulty. I mean my grandmother and father have an ancient CRT and it works. But this pregiven lastability of a plasma would make them very hard to sell I would imagine after a few years(when Im ready to uppgrade).

    The lifetime doesn´t bother me too much, I just want the best picture I can get. You guys actually say the picture from a plasma is better than a CRT? What about in a black room (like mine).

    I was on the usa pioneer site.. what is the difference between these models PRO-800HD ,PDP-4330HD. Are they both available here in europe, what model is the mx?

    http://industryclick.com/magazinearticle.asp?magazinearticleid=121666&magazineid=127&mode=print

    This review said that the Pioneer's PDP-503CMX had greyer blacks than the panasonic Panasonic's TH-50PHD3U, but the pioneer was better in many other ways. Are these the newest models from them, have either of them got their problems sorted out.. Pionner with their black or Panasonic with the other niggles????
     
  10. Gliese 581c

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    I think plasma's last longer than 10 years if you only use it for 2 hrs a day

    Newer plasmas depending on vendor last around 20,000hrs to 30,000 hrs. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

    Lets say on average it lasts 25,000hrs....Thats roughly 1041 days which works out at around 2.85 years the plasma will last if its on 24hrs a day.

    Now, dono about you but I for one sleep and work.

    So...... lets say you watch it 12hrs a day, it will last you roughly 6 years.

    I for one wont watch it bang on 12 hrs a day, sometimes more, and obviously less, according to my calculations it should last you around 6-8ish years.

    If you still have your plasma at the current rate of technology progression I'll eat ma shoe.:p
     
  11. Joe Fernand

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    Keyser

    Ask your initial question on the CRT, LCD, RPTV and Plasma forums and you'll get very different answers.

    I think in general on this forum we all get a big grin when we fire up a plasma display - more so than when we fire up a CRT, RPTV or LCD.

    Having worked with all of these technologies for a while now plasma is definitely the show stopper amongst them all and as ArCAm points out you will be a very long time sitting if front of your display trying to wear out the phosphors - and remember the 25/30,000 hours is only to half brightness and a 1000cd Pioneer looks mighty fine at 500cd.

    A good quality progressive scan DVD player and good quality DVD disc playing through a good quality plasma display via its Component input is pretty amazing and yes is probably the best image you will view on your display - unless you go down the HCPC route and build a high quality PC with DVI out and then you can possibly outperform the best that current mass market DVD players can offer; though I guess Denon/TAG/Moon and the like will argue otherwise.

    If you have the cash then you can use a low cost (£600) external scaler to try and 'tidy' up the video signal being output from lower quality sources and if you have plenty of spare cash you can spend around £2k and get a really good external scaler that will 'process' all of your video sources to the native resolution of your chosen plasma display (the idea being that whilst every plasma display already has a video processor built in you can get a better one from
    a third party vendor and pre-process the video signal so that the internal processor is bypassed). See the Progressive Scan forum for more detail on this subject.

    Pioneer model numbers and tech specs dont transfer directly between the US and Europe/UK - if you want 'TV' like features and ease of use look at the Pioneer 433 or 503 HDE PlasmaTV range - if you want ultimate picture quality look at the Pioneer 433 or 503 MXE Plasma Display range.

    The perfect PlasmaTV or Plasma Display has yet to be built - the current 4 Series Panasonic 42" display has been the best Home Cinema display for quite a while now with the new 5 Series looking like it will continue to be a strong contender in this market with the new Pioneer 433MXE currently looking like the new Best Buy. (Pioneers blend of Video quality, Hi Res display, Silent Operation and Pricing looks very hard to beat).

    The perfect magazine review - its not too hard to look between the lines of most of the magazine reviews in the 'mainstream' magazines to see how tight a schedule most journalists/reviewers are on when it comes to a group test of six new DVD players etc you do have to look elsewhere for more in depth reviews and then you start to get into the realms of the esoteric and getting too much info. I guess that's where the power of the web takes over for those that wish to look that little bit harder.

    (Strange things in magazines - one magazine this month list its 2002 Award Winners in most categories of HiFi and Home Cinema. It awards five out of the six possible loudspeaker awards to stand mount models and then in the letters page of the same mag advises someone to get a set of floor standing speakers are they are 'generally' better than stand mount speakers!!!)

    Trust some of this helps.

    Joe
     
  12. baileych

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    I would have though 4 hours a day would be more realistic. (I suspect that I'm going to be a lot less myself, say two hours on average.)

    4hrs per day would be 18 years. 2hrs per day 36 years. I suspect that some other part would fail due to actual age rather than usage age but still.

    I'm not saying that any plamsa will last longer, or not fail sooner, I'm just saying there is no evidence for the expected lifespan being any lower than 10-20 years. It may be that the current crop all start going pop immediately after two years - but who knows!

    Charles.
     
  13. philipb

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    Joe Fernand

    Your post is interesting. I am seriously considering the 433 MXE hooked up to a PC with DVI output. I was considering this for general PC use, but from what you say it sounds like it would outperform my Sony 9000ES via component. Any comments? Presumably using the PC to play DVDs would remove any need to buy a de-interlacer such as the iScan Pro for PAL material (the 9000 is PS only for NTSC).

    I will probably call soon to discuss prices etc.
     
  14. keyser

    keyser
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    Thank you all for your help.
    Now that panasonic is coming with the 5th generation model.. is pioneer coming with something new.. it seems that the pioneer is better in many ways than the panasonic except for the black level, and I always watch movies in a black room so this wories me a little and am hoping that pioneer fix this on their next model. The us site sais that hde has purecinema 3:2 pulldown, is this something that I should think about... does the mxe have this. My pioneer 737 has also a logo of progressive "pure cinema". Do these plasmas make full use of pal progressive(2:2 pulldown?)??
     
  15. Joe Fernand

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    Charles

    We recently sold off most of our plasma hire stock and a couple of dem units we have had hanging on our office walls to demonstrate a digital signage software package we sell to corporate customers.

    The Pioneer PDP-V401 (4:3 - VGA) models that we used for the digital signage demo ( and also to 'preview' video edits from our AVID edit suite) were purchased in 1998 - they are not ideal for Home Cinema (Solarisation) but they certainly showed no ill effects after being used a few hours a day most week days for the past four years.

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  16. baileych

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    As a plasma owner this is certainly reassuring, even if it doesn't directly concern the latest consumer models.

    Charles.
     
  17. keyser

    keyser
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    I think I remember pioneer stating that their latest plasmas last longer than others... am i remembering correctly?

    What can a pc dvd do that my pioneer 737 can´t?

    How bad will vcr and tv look? Isn´t there dnr to make them watchable?

    Do neither the panasonic or the pioneer have inverse mode(quite clever isn´t it) to protect from screen burn? It would be possible to write an insverse cd on a pc and play it once in a while woulnd´t it... have bright widescreen bars etc... or doesn´t that help any?

    A tv guy that has seen it all just told me that the best plasma image is not as good as the best CRT´s, but you guys are sure you disagree??
     
  18. Joe Fernand

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    Hello all

    Philip - we have a few customers (Home Cinema and Corporate) using PC's with DVI out as there main source and certainly they all report back that they can outperform there current DVD players for video quality.

    The DVI enabled PC cards do seem to be very good and DVI (Digital RGB) is definitely a better looking system than VGA (Analogue RGB).

    We also have quite a few customers now using the TAG PSM192 progressive scan processor which outputs DVI (though it still has an analogue stage in its signal processing) and again these customers are very happy with the results - I dont think its night and day every time but on the whole they are happy with the extra cash spent.

    Keyser - the Pioneer PDP-433MXE is very new (I think we received our first unit about eight weeks ago) so I dont except to see it replaced in the near future.

    The Pioneer HDE PlasmaTV units are NOT Pal Progressive compatible whereas the Pioneer MXE Plasma Display units ARE Pal Progressive compatible.

    The introduction of the 43" Pioneer MXE model has given all potential plasma purchasers a great option to the Panasonic displays and with Pioneers current pricing allied to the feature set of the MXE models we are certainly getting quite a few customers who were all set to go with a Panasonic swapping over to the Pioneer.

    We do have plenty of Pioneer MXE 50" customers who view in 'all dark rooms' and none report back that they have a big issue with its performance in these settings.

    Its also worth noting that I have had quite a few positive comments back about the 43" MXE's performance with lower quality Composite signals - many have been surprised at just how well these stand up on this display.

    Pioneer are saying they will outlast the competition - though I think these figures are really aimed at the Digital Signage market; I cant see too many Consumers who can afford a Plasma TV/Display today hanging on to it for the next 15 years!

    Panasonic 5 Series displays have - White Scroll Bar, Screen Reversal, Wobble Mode and Side Bar adjustment screen saver modes.

    Pioneer MXE displays have - Inverse Mode, Full Mask, Orbiter Mode and Still Picture and Brightness detection screen saver modes.

    I wonder which CRT your 'TV guy' is referring too - have a look over on the TV forum; there seems to be a bit of a problem getting a decent CRT TV these days.

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  19. keyser

    keyser
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    Thanks for your help and info.

    I agree that there are lots of problems with CRT´s (I think I had them all on my 36zd), but the guy was referring to a crt without faults... which actually are available. But there are also quit some complaints in the forum on plasmas.. about lip sync problems and fan noize and soforth.

    Are the pioneer´s new... then why can I find reviews here http://www.plasmatvguide.com/plasmatvreviews.htm from 2000, are these different models? It´s measured in some review that the panasonic has half something black level as the pionner(panasonic much blacker blacks) is this still the case?? I really want a pioneer and am hoping that they improve their blacks a little if that is the case(my room is is a black hole).

    Do you know of anything new or improvements arriving to plasmas, I´m prepared to wait for up to a 1/2-1year. Don´t wanna get something that´s that expensive and after a year something SIGNIFICANTLY better arrives. And plasmas must get cheaper since they are selling more and more every year. So a better plasma in a year may cost less than the best now. Or is the pioneer 43mxe the way to go right away? Does it have an inbuilt scaler orline doubler to make non progressive signals better or is that something that I sould buy.
     
  20. Joe Fernand

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    Keyser

    Just a quick note for now - busy weekend stripping out fixtures and fittings at our old offices.

    Pioneer's current UK line up is as follows.

    Plasma Display:
    PDP-503MXE - 50" - introduced around 12 months ago and no replacement due until late 2003.

    PDP-433MXE - 43" - introduced June 2002.

    PlasmaTV:
    PDP-503HDE - 50" - introduced around 12 months ago and no information on a replacement model at present.

    PDP-433HDE - 43" - introduced around 12 months ago and no information on a replacement model at present.

    The models that have come before (starting around June 1998) and are reviewed on the web link you gave are US versions of the Plasma Display models:

    PDP-V401E (4:3 - 40")
    PDP-V402E (4:3 - 40")
    PDP-501MXE (16:9 - 50")
    PDP-502MXE (16:9 - 50")

    In the US they also have the ELITE line up which have big chunky glossy bezels and different warranty options and some say better picture quality!

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  21. keyser

    keyser
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    Thanks you very much Joe.

    I found it on the faq´s somewhere on the homepage, but can´t find it now... there were measurments of contrast and black levels and soforth... I think that the one model(think it was the elite model in the us) was a little better than the mxe in all measurements... but I cant find the stats now. Darn it. Are the elite models coming here?
    Thanks again.
     
  22. keyser

    keyser
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    Found it...

    Pioneer PRO-1000HD
    Black Level(NITS) 0.4 to 0.5
    Brightness(NITS) 60
    Ave/Avg Contrast Ratio 245:1
    Peak contrast ratio 274:1

    Pioneer PDP-433CMX
    Black Level(NITS) 0.6
    Brightness ?
    Ave/Avg Contrast Ratio 138:1
    Peak contrast ratio 175:1

    ... the pro is the elite model I think and the numbers look slightly better.. is that coming to europe and is it getting replaced any time soon in the us??

    Fujitsu 5002
    Black Level(NITS) 0.2
    Brightness(NITS) 70
    Ave/Avg Contrast Ratio 567:1
    Peak contrast ratio 589:1

    These specs look much better than the Pioneer´s and some in the US seem to prefer the Fujitsu... what do you make of this?
     

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