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Plasma dealers

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by turnergw, May 2, 2002.

  1. turnergw

    turnergw
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    Having finally decided it's about time to invest in a plasma display, I'm now finding it incredibly difficult to find somewhere with a range of screens for demonstrations. Thanks to the vast amounts of great advice on this and other boards, I've narrowed the choice down to the Panasonic TH42PW4, Fujitsu 4242 and Pioneer 433.

    My local Sevenoaks hi-fi dealer has a nicely set up Fujitsu set, and have just installed a Pioneer. However, finding somewhere with a well-set up Panasonic is proving harder.

    I'm in Guildford, but am willing to travel around to see a good range of well-calibrated displays. Can anyone recommend a dealer with a few good screens, especially the Panasonic?

    TIA

    Graham
     
  2. nickf

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    Hi Graham

    If you can make it to London, try Harrods - they have about 12 different screens set up - the Panasonic and Fujitsu are definitely there, and there's a Pioneer - but I'm not sure it's that model.

    Only downside is some are hooked up with S Video only. But it will give you a decent idea.

    Nick
     
  3. turnergw

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    Thanks Nick, I'll give them a try next time I'm in London. Would be interesting to see a decent range of screens running from the same source.

    Any idea if the staff know what they're talking about in there? I tend to find that non-specialist stores are usually know very little about most hi-tech products - although I don't know Harrods' reputation in this respect!

    Cheers

    Graham
     
  4. nickf

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    Graham

    Their screens weren't all running off the same source, but you should get a good idea of the relative quality. Although with S-Video you do get a bit of ghosting which goes away through RGB / VGA.

    As far as the staff - I have the same opinion as you and didn't actually speak to them - I had a shortlist from here and went there to make my final decision (and to persuade my other half that it was a good idea - she agreed!). From what I overheard they were similar to Dixons et al, ie they didn't know all the techy details that we know here...

    FYI my shortlist was Panasonic TH42PWD4BX and Fujistsu 4242, after comparing them there was no contest and I got the Panasonic - the picture is just so much more realistic. And it's almost a grand less.

    Nick
     
  5. turnergw

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    The Panasonic certainly seems to be the screen of choice for most viewers - I wish I could find one that would make me think the same! I'll try and get up to Harrods this weekend and have a play.

    Nick, have you had your screen long? My one remaining concern, and one that seems to get wildly different answer from different people, is that of burn in. There is a lot of talk on the US version of this board about problems using plasmas with 4:3 and 2.35:1 ratio material (ie black bars at the sides / top & bottom of the display). Some people seem to have experienced screen burn with this type of material, where the whole sceen is not being used at once - leaving permanent 'burnt' bars on the screen afterwards Have you seen any problems like this?

    I'm assuming you'd have to watch an awful lot of 4:3 ratio stuff to get any physical burn on the screen, but I'd rather not be limited to having to stretch all material to 16:9 to avoid it.

    The more I read about these plasmas, the more issues they seem to have - still, I suppose it's the same with any technology!
     
  6. sirjohnofbalham

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    Try Visionery in Crawford St W1 (near Baker St Tube). They know what they're talking about but their prices are high. At least you can see the various screens. I bought my Panny 42 (Grey) from Joe Fernand and am delighted with it. I wouldn't get too paranoid about burn in.
     
  7. nickf

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    I've only had mine for a week so I haven't given it a chance to burn yet! I stretch anything in 4:3 - but then since ITV digital went I only have the free to air channels which are mostly 16:9 anyway. Also coming from a Sony 28" which I ran on "Smart" (= Panasonic "Just"), it's not really noticable to me. You can't run the VGA / BNC connections in Just mode for some reason.

    The one thing I did was turn down the default brightness and contrast settings, from 20 & 0, to 0 & -8. They just seemed far too intense at first. I guess I need to get a setup DVD & calibrate it properly.

    I also brought from Joe and the service is great.
     
  8. ChrisDeighton

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    Hi Graham,

    I also live near Guildford, and am thinking about buying a Plasma.

    The best place I've found for viewing plasmas locally is Kingston - John Lewis have about 3 running from a terrestrial feed (Philips, 37" Panny and one other, I think), but the Bentals Centre has more... From memory, they have the following on display:

    37", 42" and 50" Panasonics
    50" Pioneer
    42" Relisys
    42" Fujitsus (two models)

    They also have about 6 LCD screens if you're interested in those as well.

    All the plasmas at Bentals are running off (separate) DVD players, and the sales guys seem happy enough to swap around the DVDs if you want them to.

    The Sony Centre in Kingston also has the 42" Sony on display, which is worth checking out while you're there, even if only to confirm it's not very good!

    Hope this helps... If you find anywhere else locally with decent displays, please let me know! :)

    Cheers,

    Chris.
     
  9. turnergw

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    Someone else has just informed me that Bentalls in Kingston is a good place for plasma viewing as well, so it looks like that's the first port of call this weekend. Sounds like a good selection, that's way more than I've seen anywhere else !

    Thanks everyone for the information - I'll post anything useful that I find out, and Chris, if I find any more reputable local dealers, I'll be sure to let you know !
     
  10. Ten

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    nickf

    i have my dvd player connected via component and can select 4:3, zoom, 16:9 and just no prob

    ten
     
  11. turnergw

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    Well, I said I'd report on any findings, so here goes!

    Having just spend a long saturday trekking around Kingston, I'm now even more confused than before! Firstly, Bentalls do indeed have a number of sceens on display. Currently they have a Panasonic 42", Pioneer 50", Relisys 42" and Fujitsu 4234 42". (Not sure who makes the glass in the Relisys, but it's not on my shortlist).

    First comments: All the screens were connected to R2 only DVD players via S-video, which is I guess about as bad as you can get (considering my material will mostly be R1 DVD via composite connections, with a future upgrade to progressive scan if necessary).

    First test: Fujitsu 4234, beginning of Starship troopers (yes I know, not a fantastic film, but it's an excellent transfer on R2, with a lot of blacks and high contrast, and fast motion. Good test for plasmas!) Motion was superb - no blurring or trails. Colours were oversaturated, and they couldn't find the remote, so I couldn't do much about that. Screen seemed nice, but didn't really blow me away. I think that's largely due to the connection, and also the fact that there were several flourescent lights reflecting on the screen, which made it very hard to judge picture quality.

    Second test (and most important on my list): Panasonic TH42. This was my screen of choice, going by all reviews and other owners comments - yet, once again, it looked awful compared to the others. Dot crawl was EVERYWHERE on the picture - any regions of solid colour looked like they were under rippling water, really not very impressive at all.

    Can any Panasonic owners tell me whether this is to be expected? The test disc they had was Final Fantasy R2, which ought to be a fantastic test - direct to digital transfer, gorgeous colours, etc. I found the dot crawl to be too distracting to watch the film though - I certainly wouldn't pay 4 grand for this quality. Now whilst I appreciate that S-Video is not the best connection to a plasma, I wouldn't expect it to be that bad?

    Third test: Pioneer 50", showing X-Men. Nice display, but motion seemed less impressive on this - I think it's probably the sheer size, as I was standing only about 6 feet from the display, but if felt very 'jerky'. Picture quality seemes much better than the Panny, but 50" is too big for my living room, and I'm not worried about the 'Media Box' which pushes the Pioneer out of my price range, so I wasn't checking this one too hard.

    Anyway, that proved to be a fairly disappointing session. Following this I went to Sevenoaks Hifi down the road, to see what they had. The only screen they had hooked up was another Fujitsu, this time the 4229. This had a one-off used price of £3700, which fits my budget, but I'd rather have a new screen for that price!

    Anyway this was connected to a progressive scan Pioneer player, and so far, has had the best image I've seen. Contrast was very impressive, motion was superb (no trails, very little 'jerkiness'). Black level seemed very deep, and the colour reproduction was impressive too. All picture/colour settings were at '0', so I guess with some further optimisation and tweaking, contrast and colour would only improve.

    The one area in which it fell down was the detail in dark areas though. Salesman put on 'Vertical limit' as a test - outdoor, brightly scenes were, in a word, stunning. Fantastic brightness, it was like looking out of a window. However, darker scenes - in caves, or poor lighting, really showed up as a weakness. Colour banding, dot crawl and poor colour reproduction all reared their ugly heads, and put me off again.

    My other favourite test disc, Toy Story 2, looked quite unbelievable. This is by far the best image I've yet seen on a plasma. The opening sequence with Buzz Lightyear flying through the canyon and blowing up alien robots, was absolutely superb, and exactly what I'm looking for. It's just a shame that the darker scenes let it down somewhat, otherwise they may have had my cash there and then.

    Last, but not least, we tried Gladiator in progressive and non-progressive modes. There is definitely quite a noticeable difference going to interlaced output from progressive - not night and day, but definitely there. Given the cost of the plasma display, I can see that a progressive player will be next on the list of upgrades.

    Anyway, that's a long old message ... hope there's some info in there that might interest someone!

    I'm still left in a somewhat confused state though - I really want to like the Panasonic, I like their TVs and everyone else says their plasma is the best in the business - but I've now seen two in two different retailers, and both were amongst the worst I've seen.

    Can anyone reassure me that the dot crawl issue is just with S-Video, or a very poor set up? I can't believe people really find that that is the best picture, if it's as bad as what I've seen!

    I guess it's up to Harrods next to see if they have one that's any better ...
     
  12. YYZ

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    I too couldn't see what all the fuss was about with the Panasonic. Ive got the Fuji 4229 with an iScan Pro de-interlacer and the picture is fantastic
     
  13. Tom Braider

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    I had 2 models on my shortlist - the Pioneer 433 and the Pansonic TH42. I found a Pioneer to look at on Friday and came away a little bit underwhelmed. I saw some noticeable solarisation of skin tones, and a general lack of contrast. Next day I went in to that disgusting establishment called Harrods (with their Nazi doormen in full swing). A good range on display, inc the 2 above and the Fujitsu ( a 42in one, but I wasn't interested in that one). The Panasonic was playing Dinosaur, and the Pioneer Phantom Menace. The Panasonic was rich and colourful, and in non-technical terms, the most visually appealing. Phantom Menace (pod race) on the Pioneer was ok but nothing special. After watching both for some time I asked a salesman to swap the discs around so I could see the same scenes on the other screens. Deep blacks in Dinosaur that had been apparent on the Panasonic were a deep purple/grey on the Pioneer, and blue sky was almost white. Phantom Menace on the Panasonic was dramatically improved, much richer colours and contrast. Perhaps one could say that the Pioneer could be adjusted to look better. No doubt neither screen was giving its best either, but looking at what was showing, the Panasonic won no problem. Not only against the Pioneer, but every other screen on display - plasma and crt. It also drew the most attention from casual onlookers and I heard one passer-by say 'God, look at that picture!!

    I noticed evidence of screen burn on the Pioneer, at the top black bar position against a sky background, when it was playing in full screen mode. The salesman said it was hardly surprising given that they're on 10 hours a day week after week without any regard to running in. He did recommend taking care for the first few months, and told me of a Fujitsu technician who sets his screen to white for a few minutes at the end of every day. He also told me not to bother with the Panasonic tuner as it's crap - which we've heard from other sources too. Now why can't we get the Panasonic screen and the Pioneer tuner?

    So there's my non-technical opinion. Pansonic will get my money, and I'll make other arrangements for a tuner and connections.
     
  14. GaryG

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    Graham

    I called in to Unilet in New Malden on Saturday to pick up some speakers, I have no interest in Plasmas but couldn't help noticing that the Panasonic (don't know which model) in the showroom had a terrific picture. In fact I had to double check it was a plasma, past experience has taught me that plasma has washed out pictures with grey 'blacks', whatever this model was it certainly had black 'blacks'. They also have the 50" Pioneer on dem in their home cinema room which they were using to dem the speakers I was interested in, this also had quite a good picture for a plasma, not as good as the Panasonic in the showroom but pretty good none-the-less. I've spent the day reading about the Panasonic, wouldn't mind the 50" version, but just read that the life of the screen could be as little as 12000 hours (What TV and Video) and that they are more prone to 'burn in' from channel logos than a CRT, at £9k a pop I think I'll stick with my projector for now.
     
  15. Blu-rayx

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    my shortlist for a plasma are the panasonic TH-42 & fujitsu 4229 but arfter seeing the panasonic i think i'll go for the fujitsu.

    i didn't see what all the fuss was about with the panasonic.

    IN THE END IT'S DOWN TO PERSONAL CHOICE :)


    dvd
     
  16. turnergw

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    Just a further note on my comments above on the 'dot crawl' and swimmy picture on the Panasonic plasma - I've just been checking out the Final Fantasy R2 on my PC - and lo and behold, the swimmy textures and dot crawl are all there on the disc - what I was seeing, and complaining about, was a poor source disc, and obviously the display was of good enough quality to easily expose the problems on it!

    I don't recall noticing these issues on my existing TV the first time I saw the film, but checking it out again now, I can see the problems quite clearly. Just goes to show that looking too closely at these things doesn't necessarily help!

    Anyway I'm now happy to give the Panasonic more credit. I'll just have to go back next week with a larger selection of tests ...

    Meanwhile, thanks to all for the information above. Nice to know I'm not the only one in this boat!

    Graham
     
  17. Joe Fernand

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    Hello all

    turnergw - good that your going back to review the screens again; try and view them on RGB or Component rather than S-Video.

    Ten - I think Nickf is using the RGBHV inputs and the menu options are different.

    YYZ - not tried an iScan with this unit what are the plus points?

    GaryG - not sure where 'What Video' are getting the 12,000 hour life info; most manufacturers are quoting 25-30,000 half life if you run at full brightness.

    Screen burn is an issue so possibly look at one of the Commercial displays (Panasonic TH-42PWD4BX) which has inbuilt programmable and manual screen saver modes to alleviate this potential problem.

    DVD - both of these are good screens though I'm surprised you did not enjoy the Panasonic it always impresses even the hardened AV techs we get into our office.

    Regards

    Joe
     
  18. Blu-rayx

    Blu-rayx
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    hi, joe

    i don't know if it was the setup but the panasonic & fujitsu were runing of the same source(s-video),the panasonic was very dark so i ask the salesman to adjust the contrast,but it made little difference.

    when he adjusted the fujitsu contrast i saw a big improvement!!

    the panasonic could be faulty :confused:

    do you think the pansonic is better than the fujitsu?

    dvd
     
  19. ChrisDeighton

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    Turnergw,

    I noticed you said Bentalls only had 4 screens on display... Certainly when I was there a couple of weeks ago, they had 6. (The two 'extra' being the 37" and 50" Panasonics.) The last two were hidden away around to the left of the 4 more obvious displays. If you're going back again, it might be worth double checking to see if they're still there, as it looked like a pretty permanent installation to me!

    (I didn't see the 37" and 50" panels until a salesman told me they had them - before that, I was completely unaware they were even there! Not the best store layout ever conceived...)

    Regards,

    Chris.
     
  20. orange

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    turnergw

    Have you tried www.plasma-uk.com they are based in Farnham by the Jag and JVR garages.

    The web site seems to suggest they know what they are talking about.
     
  21. turnergw

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    Chris - I didn't notice the 37" and 50" Panasonics - Saw the 4 main screens on display, and I just assumed that was all they had! The salespeople didn't seem particularly interested in helping out - I guess it was pretty obvious I wasn't going to part with the cash there and then - and they didn't bother to point out the other screens. I'll check them out when I'm over there again (although I'd still rather find somewhere with a component connection running rather than just s-video).


    Orange, I game plasma-uk a call, and they sound helpful, but unfortunately they're not open at the weekend, and I'm unlikely to find the time to get over there during the week :-(


    Another question to throw into the pot: I had assumed I'm going to need an RGB-to-VGA converter box to connect up my digibox / PS2 / RGB DVD, but the guy in Sevenoaks Hifi reckons he has a cable which will allow an RGB scart to plug straight into the VGA port on a plasma screen. I assume he is in the wrong here , but can anyone clarify this for me? (Joe?)

    Thanks all

    Graham
     
  22. orange

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    Are they mad!

    :confused:
     
  23. turnergw

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    I take it all back. Rang them again just now, and rather than just being a showroom, they book appointments to help you get the most out of the visit. And, contrary to what I was told last week, they can do this on a saturday! Hence I'm now booked in for a viewing of several screens on saturday morning. Report to follow!
     
  24. Joe Fernand

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    Hello all

    DVD - obviously its personal preference and I cant dictate that you would prefer one screen over the other but certainly 'lacklustre' is not a word we would normally associate with the Panasonic plasma displays - most customers are blown away by the image quality on the D4 model; in fact many comment on the fact that the technology disappears and they just get on with enjoying great movies.

    Its also interesting to note how often we read about salesmen adjusting contrast and the like on dem units - I wonder why they don't set the displays up properly in the first place and make any required adjustments for unfavourable lighting conditions. It would be a bit a of a pain if you have to keep adjusting you plasma display every time you watch a new movie!!!

    So far I have not seen a 42" display that blows out the Panasonic and many of our customers who have shopped around with their eyes agree!

    Turnergw - the cable in question can either have some sort of passive sync processing on board; no where near as good as the active processing on the JS Tech RGB to Plasma interface - or the cable is wired as RGB+Composite and the plasma-UK team are going to set your plasma to Sync on video.

    Setting the plasma to Sync on video can and does work well on some plasmas - though consumer source kit can have far from perfect voltage outputs on there SCART sockets and this can cause problems ( PACE digibox's in particular seem to be a problem with some panels). Also if you use the Sync on Video option with a Panasonic display you cannot then use the S-Video input - leaves you a bit short of options I find.

    Orange - I bet most, non high street, HiFi shops would survive just fine during the summer if they shut down on a Saturday. I guess also like us that many AV/Home Cinema dealers have not historically opened at the weekends so unless the customers demand it we will not normally be open on Saturday or Sunday - though if someone wants a dem at the weekend we normally sort it out without a problem.

    Regards

    Joe

    PS Orange is that the Jag and TVR garage?
     
  25. nickf

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    Yes I am, but I checked again and I can select 4:3, 16:9 and Zoom. Sorry for the confusion.
     
  26. turnergw

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    OK, so now I finally see what all the fuss is about with the Panasonic screen. Just back from a visit to Audio-T in Epsom (Chris, I strongly suggest you pay them a visit!).

    Just tried out Gladiator, Toy Story 2 and Fifth Element (All R2) on the Panasonic, and at last, I can see why everyone is so keen on this screen. Colours are out of this world - motion is superb, the display is just wonderful. Toy Story in particular had me drooling.

    It was set up to run from an Arcam DVD via component inputs. We also tried a Denon DVD with 'hacked' PAL progressive output - which actually made the picture worse! Strange artifacting on diagonals, presumably caused by the progressive PAL image being scaled down. Not to worry though, since a) 90% of my discs are NTSC and b) I don't have a progressive output player yet!

    Difference in visuals between progressive and non-progressive seemed minimal anyway - I was more than happy with the standard output. Even connected via S-Video, the picture was clean and clear.

    Ironically enough, after all my complaints above, he had a copy of Final Fantasy there too - so we stuck that on, and lo and behold - swinny, grainy colours. Hmmm. Won't be using that as a test again then!

    Well, I think my decision is pretty much made. I'd still like to check out the NEC MP3 screen, and do a real head-to-head comparison of a few, but for now, the Panasonic is clearly ahead of the pack for me ...

    Graham
     
  27. orange

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    Joe Fernand

    You have a valid point, thinking back every hi-fi / AV listening / viewing session I have always gone in the week. That way you get better service as the dealer does not have a shop full of people of demos every hour.

    Re; the garages, Their is a Jag garage on one side of the road and JVR on the other with Plasma store just behind.

    It's that kind of town
     
  28. MartinN

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    The high street dealers can be slightly duff.

    I strolled into Sevenoaks Sound & Vision to have a look at the panny. It was playing Shrek, which looks fantastic on anything. Anyway, I was watching it and was thinking.... "um doesn't look as good as the Fujitsu, what's goin' on?"

    The DVD player was set to 4:3, I had to ask the shop for the remote so I could set it to 16:9:eek:

    To be fair they did say they had swapped the players around, and they were using component input not svideo.

    MartinN
     
  29. YYZ

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    To answer your query Joe, the addition of the iScan to the 4229 cleans up a lot of noise and artefacts, particularly noticeable on the composite feeds from my digi box. Contrast and sharpness are improved and subjectively its a much better picture. Concerns over video delay and sync errors with sound seem unfounded, Ive had no problems so far.
    Its well worth a try on any screen that supports progressive scan
     
  30. Blu-rayx

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    YYZ,

    i'm still new to all this but what is a iscan and how much dose it cost ?


    dvd
     

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