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PJ demo's in Norfolk/Suffolk/Cambs

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Rob100, Sep 5, 2005.

  1. Rob100

    Rob100
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    As I've said in a few previous posts I'm looking to buy a PJ in a few months. Will probably wait for the next generation to be launched.

    However I want to demo some now so I get an idea if I prefer LCD or DLP etc having read about the pro's and con's of both.

    I made a couple of enquiries today and everyone (dealers) I spoke to tried to push DLP's (they didn't stock LCD's), basically stating that LCD's are c**p. That's not really what I was after - I want to see the differences back to back myself.

    So, any ideas where I can go to get some demo's please?

    Thanks,


    Rob.
     
  2. maj74

    maj74
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    Where are you?

    I have the Sony HS-50. It's a pretty dman good advertisment for why LCD is not crap!!
     
  3. Rob100

    Rob100
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    I am just outside Brandon in Suffolk. Ipswich is approx 50 miles away. Is that an offer of a demo :D What are you feeding the HS50 with? HTPC or DVD player?

    Thanks for the reply,

    Rob.
     
  4. UrbanT

    UrbanT
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    I agree with Maj, but then I am an HS50 owner also :D

    Probably to far for you, but you are welcome to come to Aldershot for a demo :thumbsup:
     
  5. Rob100

    Rob100
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    Urban T - are those screen shots on your site using the HTPC? How is this connected to your PJ? I have looked at your screen shots before and thought they were very good.

    Did you see this post I made the other week? Any comment?

    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=238719

    Thanks for the demo offer. Yes you are quite a way from me, but you never know :D Let's see if I can find a more local demo (esp with petrol going up again!!!)

    Rob.
     
  6. UrbanT

    UrbanT
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    Hi Rob,

    The screenshots on the site are from the HTPC. In fact, I've never tried a standalone DVD player in my setup. Having tested extensively between HDMI and VGA, I chose to keep the VGA connection. The 3 reasons for doing this were:

    1) After much testing, I could not tell the difference in picture quality between the two connections.
    2) The VGA connection offered better resolutions for PC gaming, whereas the HDMI connection limited the resolutions available
    3) The VGA connection offers perfect 1:1 pixel mapping, whereas HDMI does not

    Using VGA is a bit of a no-brainer if you have an HTPC and an HS50 IMO. I hadn't seen your other post, but to confirm my HTPC detects an NTSC or PAL disc when inserted, and then automatically adjusts the refresh to 50hz or 60hz as required.

    Hope this helps

    Chris :)
     
  7. Rob100

    Rob100
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    Okay, thanks for that. Didn't realise 1:1 pixel mapping wasn't possible using HDMI.

    Sorry to ask again, but can you confirm (user JudderTest) that the HS50 will or won't accept 48, 50, 72, and 75 Hz refresh rates without conversion? Discovering this made a massive difference on my plasma.

    Thanks,

    Rob.
     
  8. UrbanT

    UrbanT
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    Your link to the Juddertest seems to be down, but as far as I remember, you cannot input 48, 72 or 75. I use 50 and 60, and the pans are very smooth.
     
  9. Rob100

    Rob100
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    Try this...

    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=318096&highlight=juddertest
     
  10. UrbanT

    UrbanT
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    OK, I've downloaded the test. I'll try and run it tomorrow evening if I get some time. I'm off to bed! :)
     
  11. UrbanT

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    Hi Rob, Firstly, I have to admit to not having read any of the documentation that comes with this program. So I've plowed in and run some tests. If I've done it wrong, or you want me to do something specific, please ask.

    Firstly, I tried all 5 refresh rates 48,50,60,72,75 by making the adjustment in Powerstrip, clicking apply, and then checking the projectors own menu for the reported refresh. In all cases, it took the refresh, reported it correctly in the menu, and kept full 1:1 pixel mapping.

    Then, I set the PJ to 48hz, and used the 48/2=24 judder test which was as smooth as silk. 50/2=25 was the same. Wasn't sure how I could test the 60hz setting as this has no direct divider to NTSC or PAL? I then tried 72 and 75 / 3. The bars were still smooth, but not as silky smooth as 48 and 50. Just the finest hint of some micro stutter, for want of a better word.

    In all cases, there were no reported lost frames.

    Let me know if you need anything else :)

    Chris
     
  12. maj74

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    I think I could manage a demo for you at some point.

    I must admit my HS-50 is connected to a plain old dvd recorder via component output to VGA input. If there's anyhting wrong with the picture, I can't see it!

    Regards,

    Martin
     
  13. maj74

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    I think I could manage a demo for you at some point.

    I must admit my HS-50 is connected to a plain old dvd recorder via component output to VGA input. If there's anything wrong with the picture, I can't see it!

    Regards,

    Martin
     
  14. Rob100

    Rob100
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    Hi Chris,

    Thanks for performing the tests.

    Who does :) One key you must learn is to press Q to quit the test!

    To prove the point further, increasing the bar width and bar speed will highlight any internal frame rate conversion by the PJ.

    That's great, just what I wanted to hear.

    Sorry m8, don't get what you are asking here.

    PAL = 25fps
    Film = 24fps
    NTSC Film = 23.976 fps
    NTSC Video = 29.97 fps

    To test NTSC Video you would run the PJ at a multiple of 29.97, so 59.94Hz would be ideal.

    Try increasing the bar speed and width - increasing width to 30 will probably show large stutters.

    From what you've said so far the HS50 sounds like it will run at both 48Hz and 50Hz without any internal frame rate conversion. This is what I wanted to hear :D

    I find it better to run as close to 47.952Hz as I can when watching region 1 (or any other NTSC film source) DVD's. Also don't trust what Powerstrip tells your gfx card to run at, just because it "asks" the card to run at 50Hz it may not. You can see using Reclock what the true refresh rate is.

    I use my R1 Attack of the Clones for many of my tests as it's a disc I'm very familiar with. There are several scenes for where ships are flying through the skies of Coruscant and when using my DV88+ in either interlaced or progressive scan modes the ships seemed to "pinch" as they moved across the screen. Once I discovered JudderTest and Re-clock with my HTPC driving my Plasma at 47.952Hz (or as close a possible) this was so smooth - no sign of any pinching. Everything was smoother than I'd ever seen before. Another example on the same disc is where OB1 goes into the bar to see Dexter Jettser. The scene at the start of that chapter where the camera pans showing the outside of the bar and some ships and a train (well it looks like a train) passing by is transformed to "silky smooth" (your words)...

    I would imagine the difference is even more noticable on a PJ.

    Look fwd to hearing some more results :)

    Rob.
     
  15. Rob100

    Rob100
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    Thanks for the offer. Let me see if I get any more joy with some dealers. If not then I may take you up on it some time.

    Rob.
     
  16. UrbanT

    UrbanT
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    Morning!

    I finally got to bed at 1pm. Having started fiddling with the settings, I wanted to try as much as possible. Hopefully the good news you wanted.

    Your choice of DVD was good, as I also have the R1 of AOTC, and had noticed the finest of stutters in certain scenes. To be honest, they had never bothered me, as they are only slight, but any improvement has to be worth looking in to!

    The 3 scenes I was using were the scrolling opening text, the initial pan to the planet, with the silver ship and escorts flying over the clouds and landing, and the pan to the cafe you mention, with the 2 trains.

    The 3 refresh rates I tested were 48, 60 and 72.

    On the normal 60hz rate I use, if you look at all of the these scenes critically, you can see the stutter in all of them. Specifically, as you look down on the clouds of Coruscant when the 3 ships emerge from the bottom of the screen, the small escort ships stutter (or pinch) up the screen as you describe. The trains in the cafe pan are also very revealing.

    Initially setting a 48hz rate (confirmed in Reclock), parts of these scenes are super smooth, and others start having quite large stutters. An example is the large silver ship landing at the start. As it breaks the cloud, and looms large to land, the film stutters quite heavily. I tried several refresh rates slightly higher and lower, and no change.

    I then decided to take FFD Show processing out of the Theatertek options, and that was the key. It clearly doesn't like my settings at 48hz, but without it, the film is super smooth. The text scrolls like silk, the whole initial scene with the 3 ships is perfect, and the trains are now fast and smooth without a hint of stutter. Impressive.

    AOTC is such a good transfer that the use of FFD Show adds nothing IMO. I'll have to play with some other films but its established that perfectly smooth 48hz NTSC playback works.

    This was confirmed by Judder Test which is also perfect at 48hz, which is why I thought the post processing in Theatertek must be causing the large stuttering initially seen.

    I then moved onto 72hz. No real luck with this. Judder Test is not smooth at all, and the result is that watching a film at 72hz is the same, if not slightly worse than 60hz. As a technical dork, I obviously can't tell you why?

    Any other questions or tests, don't hesitate to ask :)

    In the meantime, a small word of warning. The out of box settings for an HS50 are way off. When I bought mine back in December (blind), the dealer even warned me of this. If the dealer offering the demo has taken it straight out of the box, don't be to disappointed with the results :)
     
  17. Rob100

    Rob100
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    Chris,

    Nice one! I'm at work at the moment so can't reply properly, but thanks for trying this and I will reply in full later.

    Looks like the HS50 is definately on my A-List to demo :D Personally I think this makes such a massive difference I am not interested in a PJ that will not run at 48 (or 72) and 50 Hz. There seem to be so many that although they will accept a wide range of input rates, internally these all get converted to 60Hz.

    Can you imagine the fun I'm going to have explaining this to local dealers... :eek:

    Rob.
     
  18. Rob100

    Rob100
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    I know that feeling all to well.... It's normally 10pm or so before I start "experimenting" with things and all too often the next thing I know it's 2am and I'm thinking, oh I've got to get up in 4 hours....

    Oh yes and one day I might actually watch a film instead of spending all my time tweaking :D

    Unfortunately for me I have become ultra critical, especially with regards to PQ - maybe it's my age :rolleyes:

    Hmm, I use ffdshow at 48, 50 and 60 Hz all the time and don't have problems. What MPEG2 video codec are you using? I don't use Theatretek - I use Media Player Classic with Nvidia and DScaler5 codecs. I like the simplicity of this program. I'm not into flashy front ends.

    Sure is :D

    Can't quite agree with this statement I'm afraid. I do agree the AOTC is superb PQ, but I do like to sharpen up (just a little) with ffdshow. What's your gfx card?

    The PJ does not perform any frame rate conversion at 60Hz (I assume JudderTest is smooth at 60Hz?), so the PC is converting the 23.976 fps source to 60Hz.

    When feeding the PJ with a 72Hz signal the PJ cannot display this without converting (probably to 60Hz) and as you can see it makes poor job of this.

    Speaking of 60Hz.... You will probably find menu's stutter on NTSC discs when running at 48Hz. The menu's are normally (I think always??) NTSC video so will be best at 60Hz, same goes for many "extra's" on DVD's - "the making of...", trailers etc

    In what way? Colours? Please elaborate.

    I made some more calls today to local dealers and nobody seems to stock LCD's of any nature. Why are they all so negative towards LCD's and only stock DLP's?

    I was looking at http://www.discounttv.co.uk today. They seem to have a fair range and can offer a side by side demo of LCD/DLP's including the HS50. Would be nice if they also had a PLV-Z3. Miles away from me though :-(

    If any PTAE700, PLV-Z3, Screenplay 4805, Screenplay 5700, Screenplay 7205 owners (or any other PJ's in this price bracket) are reading this can you *PLEASE* try JudderTest and report your findings. Maybe we could do with a database on the forum listing which PJ's will allow 1:1 pixel mapping using the VGA and DVI/HDMI inputs and also what refresh rates are supported without internal conversion.

    Thanks again,

    Rob.
     
  19. UrbanT

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    Hi Rob,

    I can't prove this until I get a couple of free hours to test it (my Lost, series 1 DVD's turned up today so it may not be anytime soon ;)), but I just think I've pushed my FFD Show settings to hard for 48hz. I'll turn it back on and take one of the options off to see if that cures it. My feeling is it will.

    As for Theatertek, the reason I like it is the simplicity. Theres no flashy front end, its just a damn good quality player thats suits the use of a Gyration mouse. It uses the same Nvidia codecs that you are probably using.

    The Sony is a very sharp projector, so on a good quality transfer such as AOTC, the benefits of FFD Show are not as obvious as a bad transfer. Having said that, I won't turn it off ever, so I just need to adjust the settings a fraction to make it work again.

    As for out of the box settings, its the basic settings. Contrast, brightness and colour temperature. I seem to remember it being incredibly dark as standard as well, but don't forget they have changed the firmware since I bought, so these initial settings may have changed as well.

    Not sure why dealers don't want to stock LCD's. Perhaps theres not enough profit in it for them, or perhaps the choice is limited, ie, there are DLP's at £1k, £2k, £3k, £4k, £5k etc, whereas the same choice doesn't really exist for current LCD models. I'm guessing so don't really know :)

    Back to Lost :D

    Chris
     

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