1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Pixel Plus 2?

Discussion in 'TVs' started by peejay, Aug 18, 2003.

  1. peejay

    peejay
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I know the original Pixel Plus has had very mixed reviews - excellent from magazines, terrible from people on this forum. I was wondering, though, if Pixel Plus 2 fixed any of the problems with the original? I'm shortlisting TVs at the moment and am wondering whether the 9618 should be on the list. (Having wireless rear speakers is just so convenient - I am so lazy.)

    Cheers,

    Peter
     
  2. Anastie

    Anastie
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2003
    Messages:
    1,848
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    UK
    Ratings:
    +192
    I would also like an answer to this question:D
     
  3. bazzae123

    bazzae123
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2002
    Messages:
    314
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Ratings:
    +0
    Having seen the reviews from people who own one of the original pixel+ units I dealt if any body dare buy one. Again what video magazine hails it as the best thing ever and to quote " The best processing system just got better- a spectacular set". Remarks like that don't help you decide though.

    Bazza
     
  4. FoxyMulder

    FoxyMulder
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I think a lot of magazines are paid for good reviews i just posted in the dvd section about RoboCop getting rave reviews for its remixed 5.1 soundtrack but it sounds terrible. someone is paying these reviewers for good reviews or theyre getting different televisions perhaps specially put together that the general public arent getting in the shops.
     
  5. Dazed

    Dazed
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Which models are PP2?

    Toying with getting a 9308 but worried by all the PP complaints. It's either that or a Loewe probably
     
  6. DoogyDawg

    DoogyDawg
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2002
    Messages:
    182
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Cardiff
    Ratings:
    +3
    I posted this in another thread today.

    well........here goes
    I have been through 6 philips sets, 2, 36" and I am on my 4th 32"
    9617, this latest set has been upgraded after much arguments etc to the latest p+2 version, (see upgrade fix in the P+ thread, last page by me ) would I buy another philips ?? errrrr NO THX
    the set may look good in the stores when they show you the P+ demo etc, but movies look more like documentrys than giving that movie experience, the sound for a tv is great, but its let down by still having dirty patches on the screen, you may not see them instore, but trust me, you will after getting it home LOL.
    I am selling my philips and getting the new panny pd30, I admit its a hard choice, and like its been said, ALL the sets have some issue or another, but like other people in the P+ thread, I would never touch another P+ set again, they did not want to help in anyway or admit to the fault, I have a 5 year guarantee as well so I just kept going back untill they did something, they said that philips said they had not come across this before. so I handed them 167 pages, as thats what you get when you print off the P+ thread, and said...this says you do know about it, so they got it sorted, but it still has some bad issues, the panny does not have the sound the philips has but the picture has a lot less issues. and that cuts it for me.
    from what I can see, it aint changed much LOL.:suicide:
     
  7. They

    They
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2002
    Messages:
    171
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Bristol
    Ratings:
    +0
    The Pixel Plus 2 (if that's what they end up calling it) system is not out yet, it is in development and requires a new hardware design to implement the new features and improvements. The update or tweek to PixelPlus in the PW9618 for instance is mostly, as far as I can tell, the addition of the 'Movie Plus' mode which is an amendment to the Digital Natural Motion (DNM) section of P+ and aims to reduce occurences and severity of the dreaded 'halo' effect. This set also gives the option of 60Hz progressive scan (might have been available on earlier models also).

    Can't say much about whats in the next version of P+ but it would seem to have some significant quality improvements such as a better DNM which deals with the situations that cause the 'halo' effect in the first place, better de-interlacing with edge adaptive feature (similar to Faroudja's DCDi) and some interesting (and as far as I can tell, unique) detail enhancement features for the pixelplus section.

    Also, should be seeing Philips' own 36" widescreen tubes in their TVs soon which will hopefully improve upon the Matsu****a CRTs used in many models presently.
     
  8. bazzae123

    bazzae123
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2002
    Messages:
    314
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Ratings:
    +0
    Interesting, Do you know when this unit will be available and where did you info come from?

    Bazza
     
  9. They

    They
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2002
    Messages:
    171
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Bristol
    Ratings:
    +0
    I assume you are refering to the PixelPlus 2 as the "unit", if so then all I know is that the software is finished for the most part and is awaiting new IC design and testing. I would guess that we might see it late this year, still trying to find out. As for the 36" Philips tube, that info came from the international marketing director who tells me the CRTs have been manufactured in Germany and have been undergoing compliance testing, apparently the 36PW9618 should get the 36" Philips cybertube soon.

    The info on the new version of PixelPlus came from the people working on it.
     
  10. John23

    John23
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    They,

    important question for me as I've just ordered a 36 PW 9308:

    Hase the 36 PW 9308 already the Philips Tube in it, or is it only the 32''? If not I switch to 32''.
     
  11. bazzae123

    bazzae123
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2002
    Messages:
    314
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Ratings:
    +0
    John23 M8,

    I don't know how true this is but I've just been down to Curry's to look at the 36PW9308 and the sales guy said he couldn't sell one to me at present as Philips have told them not to sell any because of a quality problem. He told me Curry's has had to take them off of there sales terminals. Funny though, they did have one on display. It may be worth trying to find out a bit more if you have one on order.

    Bazza
     
  12. John23

    John23
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hey bazza,

    maybe thats the reason why my dealer has no item on stock and has to order it. (2 to 3 weeks delivery)
    I saw the 32PW9308 working close together with the 9617 and 9527 and was very impressed with the superb picture quality compared to the other two. So I ordered the 36'', but maybe this model has faults, which the 32'' not has. And the 32'' is on stock, so perhaps I have to think it over, if the "small" picture is ok for me.
     
  13. They

    They
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2002
    Messages:
    171
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Bristol
    Ratings:
    +0
    There has been a recall on the supplied TV stands as they can easily collapse, perhaps that is the reason.
     
  14. John23

    John23
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    .. and you have possibly an answer to my tube question above?
     
  15. peejay

    peejay
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    So, the new Philips sets have Pixel Plus 1.5, not 2.

    I've had a look at September's What Video Widescreen Entertainment and, whilst I accept it might not be an authoritative source, it has the following nuggets. They come from a review of the 9308, and an article comparing various different manufacturers resolution enhancement technologies.

    - Original pixel plus (in 9617, 9607 and 9527): "Improves detail resolution, with some shimmer when used with DNM"
    - Second generation pixel plus (with Movie Plus) (in 9308, 9618, PF9965): "Improves detail resolution, reduces shimmering on movement. The best processing mode around."
    - The new Movie Plus mode aims to eliminate artifacts by scanning the screen for any complex movement, then reducing the level of DNM processing and softening the picture.... doesn't eradicate shimmering entirely (camera pans across trees still ripple)... marked improvement on the original.
    - the 9308 also boasts an upgrade to Philips' clever Active Control system... continually adjusts a host of picture attributes, including tint and motion enhancement

    Comparing Pixel Plus with Panasonic's Acuity (and resolution boosting things from Sony, JVC, Toshiba and Thomson) - they like Pixel Plus the best.

    And yes, I know they're only a magazine and they get these things wrong. I'm just saying what they're saying.

    Peter
     
  16. They

    They
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2002
    Messages:
    171
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Bristol
    Ratings:
    +0
    I don't know at the moment, still trying to find out how Philips will use their own tubes and whether or not they will still need to statisfy demand by including panasonic CRTs.
     
  17. DoogyDawg

    DoogyDawg
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2002
    Messages:
    182
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Cardiff
    Ratings:
    +3
    THEY,
    I could end up eating my own words here, what you have said sounds very interesting, if they can sort out all the problems they have STILL got at the moment, I may just get another one LOL.
    even though I have have had the upgrades on my 9617, philips say that they cannot get rid of the bars all together, I must say that it is very hard to see them now, they said that you can reduce it even more by turning off the comb filter, but I havent done this, as I have had enough of the TV anyways,
    but if they can get it sorted once and forall, I may just yet go for a 7th one, pixel+ 2 that it not 1.5 LOL..
    at the moment even with the upgrades you have to switch off the active control, as it gives a terrible picture, and you even get the halo effect (much to a lesser view) with pixel + off, and still have the dirty patches on screen.
    keep us informed.
     
  18. John23

    John23
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Thanks for your answer. I think the main question is, whether they have 36'' tubes to built in from their own production or not.

    I like this set and can confirm the experiences of what video, since I made a long test at a 32'' 9308. But I don't want a panny tube cause I don't like their colors much (and also the bars).

    Please. keep us informed.
    Thanks again and good luck!
     
  19. They

    They
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2002
    Messages:
    171
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Bristol
    Ratings:
    +0
    There are a whole host of problems associated with hardware and software implementation on all brands of TV and they do share components of course, but the problem is that some are actual display artifacts on the screen and some are artifacts in the viewer's visual system and the severity and level of disturbance differs from person to person, that's why it is important to moderate the comments you read on forums such as this and press reviews and most importantly see the product for yourselves.

    For example, DoogyDawg I believe you are uncomfortable with the smooth motion and possible with lack of judder that Philips DMN imparts on film sources i.e. 24fps movies, you are used to cinema movies looking a certain way such as juddering on motion due to frame repeating and the way that reduces the 'reality' feeling when viewing the film.

    DNM aims to remove that judder via motion compensated frame rate up-conversion, the effect is quite unnatural to some because they are used to seeing film in a different way (a wrong way as it happens) but interlaced video (e.g. a soap opera) at 50 fields/ps on a 50Hz TV will have no judder and that is what we are used to and therefore associate judder/blur and degree of detatchment with film and a clearer more immediate effect with video.

    DNM can reduce/eliminate the differences you associate between film and video in terms of their motion, depth and detail but that doesn't make it wrong, the way film is displayed in cinemas is for practical reasons not because that is how it was photographed or intended for display, just a mechanism that's hard to get around.

    Anyway, and conversly, I am sensitive to judder in film and to some extent forgive DNM its failings because it solves a problem I have with film sources most of the time.

    So we have two differing opinions each of which is valid. Just adding up how many on a forum say a TV is rubbish against how many say it's great is not a good way to make a purchasing decision.

    Back to the threads discussion, it is valid for the recent tweeked version of PixelPlus to be called the second generation in magazines etc, but Philips don't market it as such, in fact I don't believe they mention much about it.

    From what I know so far, the improvments in the next version should be significant. PixelPlus 1.5 has a reprogrammed DNM system that uses recently improved 'fall back' modes that detect when motion vectors may be unreliable and could cause obvious 'halo' effects and so 'fall back' to other processing modes within DNM, such as reducing the amount of motion compensation, filtering in the area of unreliablility etc. However, the improved DNM system yet to come, will more thoroughly deal with 'halo' effects by further analysis of motion vectors around objects covering/uncovering backgrounds and attempts to find more appropriate interpolation source pixels. If any distortions still occur they are very much reduced in size and severity but less likely to occur anyway.

    More on the other aspects of PixelPlus 2 when I am allowed to divulge!

    As for faults ('features') people have issues with due to the nature of the CRT, in theory things should improve with the Philips 36" cybertube HD but I am only guessing. We'll have to wait and see.
     
  20. They

    They
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2002
    Messages:
    171
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Bristol
    Ratings:
    +0
    I have been told that the 36PW9308 will be the first Philips TV to use the 36" cybertube HD, but I don't yet know when or whether Panasonic tubes will continue to be used as well as Philips CRTs.
     
  21. John23

    John23
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I'm totally confused since there is no 36PW9308 in stores around to look at. So, I've never seen this model in action and don't want to send my second model back, after I had a 36PD30 for one week and was not satisfied cause of the green picture.
     
  22. DoogyDawg

    DoogyDawg
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2002
    Messages:
    182
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Cardiff
    Ratings:
    +3
    THEY.
    For example, DoogyDawg I believe you are uncomfortable with the smooth motion and possible with lack of judder that Philips DMN imparts on film sources i.e. 24fps movies, you are used to cinema movies looking a certain way such as juddering on motion due to frame repeating and the way that reduces the 'reality' feeling when viewing the film.

    I dont have a problem with any judder on the picture, its just that with dmn turned on, I have a VERY noisy picture, and I still have parts of the picture that look like they could do with a clean (dirty patches) after the upgrade, I now get the halo effect even without P+ turned on, where as I only used to get it when P+ was on before the upgrade.
     
  23. scooby do

    scooby do
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2002
    Messages:
    1,765
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings:
    +37
    I still look into these Philips threads with an interest although I did get my money back. I am confused with what "THEY" is saying. One of the complaints that got me my money back was the way the picture juddered and stuttered during some programs. Yet "THEY" says it offers smooth movement that we are not used to. On some programs you new exactly when the judder would occur and I now find myself expecting it although it does not happen on my DRC equipped set!
     
  24. DoogyDawg

    DoogyDawg
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2002
    Messages:
    182
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Cardiff
    Ratings:
    +3
    To Scoob.
    matey, how long had you had your P+ before you got a refund ?.
     
  25. They

    They
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2002
    Messages:
    171
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Bristol
    Ratings:
    +0
    DRC uses no motion compensated frame rate conversion and in fact, doesn't have to de-interlace to provide the DRC50 mode. But anyway, what you most likely experienced, assuming there were no faults in the software or micro-controller, were the DNM systems failing. This can happen in many ways and due to many factors which the designers are constantly at work on.

    It is possible that local judder could occur where motion vectors were incorrect or unreliable and the DNM falls back to a low or no motion compensated conversion, and because the initial processing is block based then the judder can show up in an apparent area of blockiness which is made obvious by the fact that the surrounding area, (for a few frames at least), and previous motion was smooth. The actual judder is not necessarily worse than without DNM just that contrasting motion previous and localised and the blockiness appearence makes it standout and a little startling.

    Other judder problems occur due to de-interlacing errors (the DNM de-interlacer is motion compensated also) and the failing to track complex motion in difficult circumstances such as scrolling text, transparency and motion way outside the search range etc.

    From experience I would say the current DNM actually succeeds for the most part but it's not perfect and its inadequacies are well known by the designers and, as I said, are being worked on. Poor quality sources (e.g. most digital TV) are a problem for all video processing but is a well documented problem that can be tackled in terms of the algorithms robustness but major improvents to picture quality will be limited i.e. rubbish in, rubbish out (or maybe, slighty cleaner rubbish out!)

    I have been using the 1999 version of DNM for sometime and wouldn't be without it, I hope they make it much better of course, but with DNM I get the failings of standard 50/100Hz TVs occcasionally and the artifacts of DNM when it trips up, but without it I would get the failings of standards 50/100Hz TV all the time, which is something I find disappointing and uncomfortable because I am sensitive to judder/blur of image repeating display systems (ironically, even more so since getting used to DNM!).

    De-interlacing, motion compensation, human visual acuity etc are very big subjects, too detailed and heavy for forums like this. But it comes down to personal preference when chosing display technology, although understanding what you see and why it occurs can sometimes help put it all into proportion and perspective. The best thing would be better sources at higher frames rates with no need for any processing, but unfortunately we often get poor sources and very low frame rates, especially with movie sources so some people would like the opportunity to mitigate for the various disparities and inadequacies where possible hence the various technologies we see emerging each year. But it's a long road to visual nirvana and it's hard to say how far we've come and how much further there is to go.
     
  26. blindlemon

    blindlemon
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    They,

    You sound like you know what you're talking about:) Can I infer from the above (and some of your other comments) that Philips have now "accepted" that vertical black bars are a "real" problem for those people that notice them?

    The reason I ask is that my 9527 is in for repair at the moment (blown tube) and I'm trying to convince Comet that Philips know about and have issuued a modification to mitigate black bars. However, Philips customer helpline are, of course, sticking to the line that "there are no known faults with this model" - so (apart from printing out the main P+ problems thread and DoogyDawg's 9617 fix) I've not got much to back up my arguments... :(

    I have also asked for my P+ to be upgraded to the latest version (I guess 1.5) too - do you know if Philips are sending out upgrades to engineers? Even though te set is under warranty (11 months old) I'd actually be prepared to pay a few quid for this (eg. the cost of a new EPROM plus a fiver to fit it).
     
  27. DoogyDawg

    DoogyDawg
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2002
    Messages:
    182
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Cardiff
    Ratings:
    +3
    this is what I got when I started the repair thing off lol.
    either give them the addy for the P+ thread or like I did, print it off (lots of pages though )
    the fix does not get rid of the bars all together but you can hardly see them, I have a copy of the report from philips with the philips guys name on it if you want me to mail a copy of it to you, in this is says what the problem is, and that it cant be fixed all together, this report is kind of the smokin gun, they wont admit theres a problem but after mailing the whole thread to them by the guys fixing my TV, they sent them the report.
    if I were you I would get rid of it all together and go for something else like the panny PD30 which I am in the middle of now,
    (THEY) knows his stuff, but you cant get away from it, the philips leaves a lot to be desiered, even models without P+, someone in the P+ thread just 20 minutes ago posted a reply about them just having their new philips set (not P+) and they have the bars, and this is one of the latest sets .
     
  28. blindlemon

    blindlemon
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Thanks DoogyDawg - I have printed off the thread and your 9617 fix and sellotaped it to the front of my TV before I sent it back. I also gave them a picture of my black bars (see here) - which I think is pretty conclusive :)
     
  29. DoogyDawg

    DoogyDawg
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2002
    Messages:
    182
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Cardiff
    Ratings:
    +3
    yeah I seen it in the P+ thread.
    :smashin: niceone, that should get em good:devil:
     
  30. blindlemon

    blindlemon
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I hope so...
     

Share This Page

Loading...