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Pioneer VSX-2012 officially announced !

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by Sven_DP, Jun 27, 2003.

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  1. Sven_DP

    Sven_DP
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  2. Ed Selley

    Ed Selley
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    I hope that it proves a little more user friendly to new owners than the 2011. Most customer queries regarding the 500 series THX pack that I get are from people who have bought the pack with a 2011. Having played about with a 2011 for a sum total of 2 minutes at the Frankfurt show, it can be a little tricky to give tham the right answers. Anyway whinge over- I hope its a blinder.
     
  3. jhjerpe

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    There are some new DVD players with the iLink interface which look good, as well as the Plasma panels with new intresting connectors.......
     
  4. Sven_DP

    Sven_DP
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    Is the Ilink from Pioneer the same as the one from Sony? And is this 'ILink' 100% compatible with Firewire ports on PC's?
     
  5. meep

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    Now we'll all have to upgrade:mad:
     
  6. wilber

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    don't be silly - hadrly worth the expense
     
  7. meep

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    That comment was intended to be sarcastic and intended to poke gentle fun at the hoards to enthusiests (me included) on these boards and elsewhere who will spend vast sums of money on minor system tweaks and upgrades. It's akin to the computer hardware software upgrade imperative.

    Of course I'm not going to sell my 2011 for half what I paid in order to get a 2012 with the addition of iLink.


    But then again, 9 band MACC. Hmmm....

    Peter
     
  8. Blagmeister

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    How do you know the VSX-2012 will have i.Link? The press release makes no mention of it, and I'm sure they'd shout about it if it did.
     
  9. Sven_DP

    Sven_DP
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    Well, you're right. First the 2012 will not have i-Link, secondly the 2012 apparently is meant for the US market. But in my favour I would like to say that Pioneer surely makes things complicated using 'European' numbers for US models...

    The 2012 looks like a non-Elite version of the 53TX which also hasn't i-Link. The successor of the 2011 (EU) and the 45TX (US) will be the VSX-AX5i which will have i-Link and which will be presented at IFA in Berlin after the summer. I guess the sucessor of the 1011 (43TX) will be the new VSX-AX3. At Avland the VSX-AX5i is being presented but the specifications are wrong, for instance the AX5i will NOT be Ultra-2 certified, 'just' THX Select. Sven
     
  10. russraff

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    whereabouts on AV land is the AX5 listed? I can't seem to see it!

    Russell
     
  11. phenom2003

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    Isn't it MCAC not MACC? I thought it stood for Multi Channel Audio Calibration.
     
  12. 337GUS

    337GUS
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  13. meep

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    They do not appear to have added audio delay (for lip-synch adjust).

    That, (and video upconversion) are the only two things holding the 2011 back from being the only receiver woth considering.

    Peter
     
  14. juboy

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    It's officially 'MCACC':

    MultiChannel ACoustic Calibration system.
     
  15. Blagmeister

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    Well that's great news. I'm looking to get a home cinema set-up later this year and was hoping a (relatively) affordable i.Link connected amp would appear - the VSX-AX5i- is probably just what I'm looking for.

    Do we reckon that Pioneer will also update it's 656A DVD player with i.Link?

    Now I just have to decide on speakers - I'm thinking B&W Series 3 or M&K K-series. Any opinions? Oops wrong forum....

    Finally - Sven - how do you know so much about Pioneer's plans- not that I'm complaining.
     
  16. Sven_DP

    Sven_DP
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    :D First, I am in no way related to Pioneer but from time to time I get some information...

    Btw. what would you, and others, think about a European 'Elite'-like receiver line? Personally I don't like the Urushi finish of the US Elite's, but that's just my personal taste of course.
     
  17. avdesigns

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    The latest What Hifi has a review of the new unit.
    I will happily stick with my 2011 as I don't need the i-link.
     
  18. AndyH

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    What did What Hi-Fi reckon then?

    And are there any other details available about the 2012 vs Ax5i, or are they the same thing?

    Cheers,
    Andy
     
  19. Sven_DP

    Sven_DP
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    None of the new models has already hit the streets. The American 53TX and 55TXi should be in the shops by now though.

    The 2012 (without iLink), the AX5i and the 55TXi all look very similar, but to be sure you will have to wait IFA Berlin from 29/8 until 3/10/2003, where official announcements will be made.
     
  20. ebiumn

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    what hifi quotes the price as 1200.00 instead of listed 900.00 for 2011

    seems a large jump, but they review it as great
     
  21. Sven_DP

    Sven_DP
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    Could anyone send or post the review please? Because I can't buy What Hifi anywhere, over here... :(
     
  22. Matthew J Taylo

    Matthew J Taylo
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    Hi Meep,

    How much of a problem is this? would it only be a problem if you have some kind of conversion box in the way of a direct signal to a plasma screen?

    Cheers Matt:hiya:
     
  23. meep

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    Hi Matt

    The video issue is not huge. You could not really expect a unit at this price point and with all the other features to have video conversion as well.

    It's just a pain to have to use more than one of the inputs on your display device (or other unit upstream) if you have multiple source formats.

    For example, if your DVD outputs component, your console s-video and your VCR composite, you can use the 2011 for switching but you still need to connect those signals to the component, s-video and composite inputs on your display. In the case of this example, you would be as well connect directly from source to display as you'll need to be switching anyway.

    It only starts to make sense if you have more than one source with the same output (everything s-video for example). It would be nice to have everything upsampled to component thus requiring you to have only one connection to your display and therefore allowing the receiver do all the switching and not have to worry about changing inputs on the screen.

    As an aside, the 2011 also has a problem in that it does not pass the video signal through cleanly. I had an isue where I was taking component out of my sky digibox (via an rbg-yuv convertor), into the 2011 and out to my HTPC.

    With this set-up, my picture was very poos. I described it as solarized. Colours were inverted and luminous. Connecting the digibox directly to the HTPC (bypassing the 20110 gave a perfect picture).

    In attempting to troubleshoot this issue, I called pioneer tech support who in turn passed me along to one of their tech bnoffins (I was very impressed at how they did this to get me answers rather than fob me off, full marks!). Two salient points arose from this conversation;

    1. The pioneer is designed with "consumer" level video signals in mind. What I was doing to my RGB signal with the YUV convertor was most likely producing a signal outside of this norm and thus was causing the problem.

    2. The pioneer does apply some image processing to incoming video signals.

    I did not talk long enough to the guy or don't have a good enough understanding of video signal processing to find out exactly what it was doing but in general, it sounded bad. If the unit is not upsampling (?) the signal, what business has it applying any processing at all. Wahy not just offer a straightforward passthrough?


    Anyway, that's video switching - I would not be too bothered about it. I don't use my 2011 for that anymore as all my sources now get switched by my HTPC.

    On the issue of audio delay, this is a biggie. I love the 2011. It's fantastic, has great flexibility, decodes just about everything, looks great and sounds excellent, even with 2 channel music. BUT, if I knew then what I know now, I would not have purchased it.

    I use a HTPC as video scaler/de-interlacer. All video scaliers introduce some form of delay on the video side which means that your audio and picture can get out of sync. The fix for this is usually to tweak the global delay settings on the receiver to hold up the sound to match the pictures. You can't do this on the 2011. (it does have individual speaker delay but it's not sufficient and too fiddly to be of any real benefit).

    What's needed is a single setting that allows the introduction of an audio delay, in milliseconds, which applies to all channels. The competing Denon (not sure of model) has this and if I was buying again, I'd go for that.

    Note that this may not be an isue for all. If you use an external DVD player and don't apply any image processing (DVD direct to display, audio direct to receiver) you probably don't need this feature. But many do and I find it difficult to understand why Pioneer would not include such a simple function on such a comprehensive machine.

    Hope that helps

    Peter
     
  24. Matthew J Taylo

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    Hi Peter,

    Many thanks for your comprehesive reply, this does help me to understand the complexities involved in moving away from TV to other forms of projection (Plasma or proj) & wanting the best PQ.

    I think I need to go down to for a demo & see what the PQ is like stright into the plasma, I'm not worried about the dvd PQ as I'm sure this will be great, it's more about the TV picture from my telewest box that is worrying me, interesting to see the effects if run through the 2012 & then onto the PS?

    The lip synch issue does sound like it could be a huge issue if I decide to place a converter etc. in the route to the PS but I'm waiting for the next Pio with i link so I can get the most out of my DVD 757ai machine

    Thanks for your advice

    Matt:smoke:
     
  25. Calle

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    Any more news on the new 2012? What would the main benefit be with iLink, is it that I can transmit the full digital signal from the DVD to the amp and use the amps DAC's and bass management?

    I listened to a NAD/Denon combination in the same price range, and there was an astounding difference when using analog instead of digital connection between DVD and amp. Much much more difference than between different speakers or cables or whatever... and it was the analog connection that sounded best! The salesperson said it was because it is always better to keep signal processing as far away from power amps as possible, and DACs usually are about the same quality in amps/dvds in this price range, thus using the DVD DACs would improve sound dramatically - and it did!

    I haven't had the opportunity to verify this further, but if this is the case it must be absolutely best to use analog cables? Why would I then need the iLink?

    Has anyone done any tests in this area? The number of possible connection alternatives are increasing rapidly, I am quickly getting very confused. I'd like to know the best sounding alternative for:
    Pioneer D2011 amp together with the 656 and 757 DVD, using
    - analog cables (stereo)
    - analog cables (7.1, both music and movie)
    - digital cable, both music and movie
    - iLink cable (not with 656 of course)

    Sorry if this is the wrong place, but this has been nagging me for some time now... and if I get best results using 5-7 analog cables, why use a 2011 at all? Wouldn't it be better to just find a 7-channel power amp, and save the cost of 7 redundant DACs?
     
  26. Sven_DP

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  27. Calle

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    Shouldn't it be 7x100W in 8 ohms, as the 2011 has?

    I can't wait to see the official specs, to compare 2011 with AX5i and AX3i...
     
  28. Calle

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    Well I just got myself a 2011. :)

    Clever as I am I downloaded the manuals for AX3i and AX5i from the Pioneer site. The manuals are there, but not the product, strange.. but anyway. Here are the difference between the three as far as I can tell:

    AX3i has two added features from the 2011:
    - Audio delay (ie lip synch)
    - Detachable power cord (at least it seems so from the pictures)
    It also has three removed features from the 2011:
    - No USB port
    - No Component Video
    - No phono connection
    - Also, the remote seem to be a bit more limited (on the other hand, the 2011 remote is quite largish for everyday use)

    So, do you need lip sync? Go for AX3. Do you need USB, Component of Phono? Go for 2011.

    AX5i is the same as AX3i, with the addition of
    - USB
    - Phono
    - Component Video
    - iLink
    - Same remote as 2011
    - SACD direct (ie you get the same result as connecting SACD analog, but with iLink)
    The main advantage with iLink connection would be that you can use all the DSP and Bass Management features with SACD/DVD-A too, which isn't possible with the analog connections. Except the iLink and lip synch it is identical to the 2011.

    There might be differences in construction etc but considering the weights it can not be very much.
    None of the models offer video upconversion, and they all have 5 band Acoustic Equalisation (ie not 7 or 9 as rumoured).

    I would consider the AX3i to be quite a step down from 2011. I'd pick the 2011 without hesitation, unless you really need lip synch.
    The AX5i on the other hand is an improvement, if you need iLink. But then you'll have to buy an iLink DVD too, which isn't cheap. And the only gain as far as I can tell would be to use Bass Management / DSP when playing SACD and DVD-A...

    The 2011 obviously is a bargain at the current price level. I hope I haven't missed anything important... :) There might be internal improvements that doesn't show up in the manual though.
     
  29. Snippermanden

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    Now I just have to decide on speakers - I'm thinking B&W Series 3 or M&K K-series. Any opinions? Oops wrong forum....


    Not sure if you will have success with Pioneer integrated amps and the K3 series. Allthough small in size they are pretty hard driven -
     
  30. AndyH

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    Ooh, must go find the manuals.. but in the meantime, do you happen to have the dimensions of the 5i handy?

    Cheers,
    A.
     

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