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Pioneer PDP435FDE 43" Plasma TV has rubbish picture quality when watching SKY

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by preda_king, Sep 13, 2005.

  1. preda_king

    preda_king
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    Does anyone know why the picture quality on Sky varies from VCD quality to unwatchable?
    I have spoken to a Pioneer engineer and have configured it correctly. But still it looks pants. Im using a Scart RGB for SKY and component for my Pioneer 575.
    The only way to get things looking half way reasonable is to put it on movie mode all the time which turns up the brightness and the contrast down.
    A trick I used to do on my cheapo £200 whalfedale 28 inch tv that I brought from Tescos. It's not something I expected from a £2200 plasma tv.

    even on dvds theres noticable ghosting, fmv type colour (7 billion the tvs surposed to have) and pixelation.

    The only thing that is giving me hope at this point is that its to do with the source. I know sky has a real crappy signal, but have my dvds always looked like this? Is my plasma a piece of junk that can't display images properly or does it pick up all the problems on a DVD?

    I just wish I had some HD stuff to try out on it with a pure digital signal. I was going to connect my PC to try that out until I found out my model was one without that connecter. Bummer.

    Can anyone out there explain how to fix this and explain why the image looks this way. What equipment will I have to buy in order to get an amazing picture. Or considering the price I paid, a semi decent picture at least.

    Cheers
    Tony
     
  2. MAW

    MAW
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    Turn off every single one of those stupid 'picture enhancement processor' bits for starters. The cynic in me says 'take it back and buy a panel only model, MXE-1, which you can really get to work on, but guessing this isn't really an option, once you've turned off the NR etc, get a THX DVD, and in the languages section there is a little THX icon. This has an optimiser 'program', to help you set the screen up. You can connect your DVD via scart to the input where you connect sky to set this one up, you have to do it for every input.
     
  3. tscotsman

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    what films have the thx optimizer??
     
  4. MAW

    MAW
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    Star wars, finding Nemo, anything with the THX logo on the spine. You are bound to own one.
     
  5. preda_king

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    Hi Maw
    Cheers for the advice. I did some research and according to alot of reviews etc, the plasma I own is one of the best u can buy at the mo. I would agree with that aswell compared to the utter crap that was on show in the shop. But I have to admit that they were cheating.
    They had monsters inc running on it. Nice colourful CGI animatin with no flaws in the picture.
    When I try playing any movie made before the 1990's it all starts to look, blurry and blocky etc...
    Very annoying.
    Judging by what u said, I can't do anything except wait until all the HD stuff comes out. More money!!! I can't believe I've got to buy all my dvds again on a HD format!!!
    Btw, I tried Component instead of scart and I can't tell the slightest bit of difference. Am I guessing that theis HDMI connecter is gonna only be marginly better aswell?

    Tony
     
  6. MAW

    MAW
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    The reviews are generally written in the pub I reckon! And they rarely review panel only plasmas, or if they do it's not with the kind of kit we all suggest on this forum, maybe they just connect with composite, they never say! The panel only route is well known to be better PQ, but it's more hassle and the added parts will cost you. As most people have digital TV anyway, paying for a TV tuner is a waste of time and money, so losing that is not the issue. 'early' movies on my panel often look a bit 'soft' but that's to be expected I think, it's what is on the DVD, that I know for certain. HDMI is noticeably better on the Pio, I suspect them of detuning the analogue inputs in fact, to get people to buy their DVD player!
     
  7. DFL

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    Now that is cynical MAW.... conspiracy theries asunder.
     
  8. scarty16

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    sky quality depends on the channel you are watching, ie: how much compresssion they use.

    Have you made sure that sky is outputting RGB and not PAL.

    are the Scart leads etc any good or cheap crap?

    Remember every artifact that you couldn't see before is now that much bigger and hence problems in the source material are now more visible
     
  9. preda_king

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    Scarty.
    All the leads are very high quality and the TV is set up correctly. I think u hit the nail on the head about the quality of the signal. It's only now that it's so in my face that I notice how bad it is. But theres something else. It's still more like a VCD than on my old (and very cheap) TV set.
    Ill just have to live with it for now.
    Whats strange is there seems to be aload of people out there who obviously think its fine. Maybe its because they've spent so much money on the TV and they talk themselves into thinking its a better picture?
    Why aren't people (who don't know anything about RGBs, scarts, settings etc) taking there plasmas back??? Everyone I know whos got one thinks there great? I know someone who brought a tiny LCD for about £250 and it looks worse than my £40 Portable! It's like I'm surrounded by crazy people or something.
    CRT is still king until the HD stuff comes out in my opinion.
    CRT will still be the best after that anyway i reckon
    I tried that THX trick, and it seems to improve it alittle. U still have to sit far away from the TV though in order for my eyes not to detect the pixels.

    Cheers
    Tony
     
  10. phcahill

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    I had a weird RGB/Pal problem with sky.

    I I set scart control "on" on the sky box my TV displays RGB. With it off then the TV goes to composite. However my Targa dvd recorder (does record RGB) is the opposite.

    So to check mess with the sky RGB and Scart Control settings and see if the picture quality changes back and forth. At least you will know for sure if you are seeing RGB.

    Check sky movies 1 for a high bandwith feed.

    Paul
     
  11. phcahill

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    I had a weird RGB/Pal problem with sky.

    If I set scart control "on" on the sky box my TV displays RGB. With it off then the TV goes to composite. However my Targa dvd recorder (does record RGB) is the opposite.

    So to check mess with the sky RGB and Scart Control settings and see if the picture quality changes back and forth. At least you will know for sure if you are seeing RGB.

    Check sky movies 1 for a high bandwith feed.

    Paul
     
  12. preda_king

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    Ignore that last post, the things just peeing me off :D :mad:
     
  13. adamswifty

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    Hi Preda King,

    I had the same preconceptions regarding plasma picture quality before I bought my Pana TH42PW7. The picture is excellent providing your not too close to the screen, I also found the make of the sky box made a difference in quality, i originally had a pace sky+ box which was changed to the newer Amstrad version, this improved the picture.

    Adam
     
  14. Brian Hussey

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    I escaped from the wife ( who was looking in a furniture shop ) yesterday and popped into the Panasonic shop in Taunton to view the 42PV500. Understandably, it was showing the cricket but the picture, admittedly close up, was absolutely rubbish compared to my tosh 56'' RPTV.
    Even the older model Panny--42PE50 something-- looked better, but not much, than the new model.
    If that's the best Panasonic can do in their own shops, it's not much of an incentive to invest in plasma at a cost of thousands !!

    Brian.
     
  15. MAW

    MAW
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    Just a quick point, the FDE needs to be told to look for RGB on it's scart as well as sky being set for it. Choose input 1, menu, options, and there it is.
     
  16. Lionheart

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    lol Brian I like the escaped bit...know what you mean...I think its a bit unfair to say the 42pv500 is worse or better than another screen until u give them exactly the same source with the same connections if possible
     
  17. scrowe

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    How long have you had the set? lesser channel Sky pictures were dull in colour and dark areas just looked like a smudge. It got significantly better by the end of the first 2 weeks with it.

    My 505XDE really needed the 100-hours or so run-in to get the best of it. Also, do a search for 'Pioneer Settings' where people have posted their optimised settings for Sky via RGB-scart.
     
  18. Brian Hussey

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    Lionheart,
    Fair point. Although, I aasume that both Pannys had similar connections.
    The reference to my Tosh RPTV was a comparison between a relatively good terrestrial signal and a so so satellite signal.

    The real disappointment was that a Panasonic product that is raved about on these forums ( and elsewhere ) was not demonstrated to it's optimum in a PANASONIC shop.

    Or maybe it was !!!!!! Now that would be worrying.

    Brian.
     
  19. rpb

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    I thought the same thing when I saw a PV500 showing the cricket - the picture was rubbish.

    I think this is probably an inherrent problem with any plasma until HD comes along.

    I was on the point of choosing between a pioneer and panasonic plasma but I am now in a real dilema

    I may even chicken out and go for a 36" Toshiba CRT
     
  20. preda_king

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    Why are manufacturers releasing products of such low quality and then claim they are better (Go to Pioneers website and read what they have to say about their plasmas)? Is it to fund there future technologies?
    It looks like to me that there was no thought concerning SDTV when they built these plasmas. Some kind of setting would have been nice. And I don't mean turning the contrast right down and the brightness up.
    I find this amazing since about 99% or people are still using SDTV. I surpose they went for the brainwashing approach. If someone pays a couple of grand for a TV and its got a futuristic name like plasma they start to think that its better than CRT. That's the only reason I can think for plasmas and LCDs selling at all?
    I'm starting to ramble again.
    Ill try mucking around with the scart again and its settings but I'm sure its all correct.
    rpd: I'd say u should keep your existing TV (unless it broke down like mine did) and wait until HD is fully established on both both DVD and sky, keeping in mind that you'll have to buy your entire DVD collection again.
    Along with the amazingly overrated dolby 5.1 I have never been so disappointed.
    Anyone else got any ideas?
    When is a HD DVD player coming out and is there any news on blu ray discs or whatever there called. I've searched the internet, but no one seems to know.

    Tony
     
  21. Alan A

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    I really cannot relate to the problems you are having. I have the XDE and the picture on SKY is fine, as good as my 32inch CRT was.
     
  22. ikon66

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    without a doubt, I'm still in awe of mine after 3 months :cool:
     
  23. damo_in_sale

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    Hi Preda_king,

    I also have a 435 XDE and this is coupled to a Sky+ (Pace original) box via RGB scart (80 quid Monster cable) and my DVD player is a Pioneer 868AVIs which is connected via HDMI.

    Now lets start with Sky- In general it looks pretty poor. But I always knew it would because it looked crap on my 28" widescreen Toshiba CRT (not the greatest crt in the world, but the kind that most people have in their living room). The thing that really annoys me is that the adverts tend to have a picture quality not too far removed from a reasonably well encoded DVD (through RGB SCART), but then Corrie comes on and it looks like a VCR recording of a VCR recording! So my conclusion is that SKY (and the channel companies as well eg ITV etc) care more about pleasing Vodafone and Renault etc then they do about their digital subscribers, but most subscribers have a 32" TV max so they hope it will go unnoticed. Also, Sky only have so much bandwidth and make money not only from Joe public paying their subscriptions but also from TV companies renting channels on SKY. The more channels the more money but the bandwidth is shared between channels, the more channels the lower the bandwidth per channel, the lower the bits per second per channel and hence the poorer the image.
    A simple example is the pay per view Sky football matches- they tend to be of a much higher quality than on lot of other stuff- they must figure that if your paying for a premium you should get a slightly better picture.
    Try grabbing a photo from your digital camera and then opening it up into a half decent image editor (if you dont have one try GIMP at www.gimp.org ). Now save as a new jpg but lower the quality (or increse the compression). You'll see what I mean.

    Now it may well be true that the Panasonics perform better with this sort of material, especially through RGB scart and not HDMI, but in my opinion (and that is all it is MAW :), from what I have seen at specialist Panasonic dealerships with a PWD6, it's still not good enough for the issue to be simply between plasmas.

    My conclusion is that with a large screen you are able to see every flaw in the source and as a source, Sky isn't very good. In fact, Sky HD is coming in 2006, which I will of course get for the football, but I expect this to be of no better quality than a well encoded DVD ( it should of course be far better, but I don't think it will for the above reasons).

    DVD- I originally had a Cambridge Audio Azur conected to the Pio vi component. Now, with a progressive signal the image could be lovely, depending on the DVD. But sometimes I could see problems with this as well- on Star Wars Episode II certain edges in certain scenes suffered from obvious de-interlacing problems eg shimmering and stepping etc. Now, in my opinion this is a pretty ****** poor DVD transfer anyway- it is obviously sourced from film but there are no film flags and the bit rate is all over the place but generally very very low. However DV Essentials test footage looked ace as its a well encoded DVD shot in HD and then downsampled to PAL. Lord of the Rings the Fellowship, special edition, looked great generally except for a lot of macroblocking in the dark scene at the begining with Gollum in his cave. I've tested this on my high end PC with Dell 19" CRT and CRT telly with various DVD players, including my £1000 Pio (I got it for £600 I concede) and it is always there, so I conclude it is in the source and not a MPEG decoding error.

    Now, the Pioneer 868 via HDMI. Star Wars Episode V The Empire Strikes Back looks astonishing- you can in places see that it's a 20 odd year old movie remastered for DVD but the bit rate is generally high and as a result it can look phenomenal. The in cockpit view of the speeder pilots during the Hoth asault look simply stunning, very three dimensional with oustanding detail of the cockpit that I've never seen before. LOTR SE The Fellowship generally looks fantastic, except for the macroblocking issue I mentioned earlier but as I said this I blame on the DVD. Superbit Black Hawk Down- the detail, the three dimensionality, the beautiful 'film' like appearance- simply stunning! And I do mean stunning.

    My conclusion- well, the Pio is capable of phenomenal results, but its very dependent upon the source. If the source is bad it shows it. If the source is fantastic it looks amazing. Before I had this plasma I would never have noticed that SW E2 AOTC was a ****** poor DVD but it is and so it makes you dissapointed at the picture quality. The image is is now 43" so you suddenly see the flaws that perhaps you didn't on your much smaller CRT.
    I purchased this plasma in the full understanding that Sky will look poor, mainly because it is poor but I also knew that a SD panny would do a better job at this so it was a difficult decision. But I also knew that HDMI 720P from a decent DVD would look outstanding. I also knew that this was, at the time of purchase, the ONLY plasma that would be compatible with Sky HD. That swong it for me big time- the difference in SD Sky wasn't enough to justify a better performing panel in SD.

    Now, taking the above into consideration, I haven't had an ISF yet and I'm waiting on Gordon to do it (no slur on Gordon, the guy's busy in the States at the moment). After which I expect the image quality to improve further, and I might even purchase a Lumagen DVD if it improves things further.

    Hope that helps a little,

    Cheers,

    Damo
     
  24. preda_king

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    Cheers for that Damo
    I know what u mean about sky, generally all the ads look great even the crappy shopping channels, but the rest looks crap. At least that will be sorted next year, and if its up to DVD encoding standard than thats good enuf for me.
    I always thought it was because of the source as I checked very closly my DVDs on my PC monitor. It appeared that the dvds had these flaws all along if I looked hard enuf on such a small screen.
    The thing is, u mentioned lots of new films there or films like starwars that have had alot of attention in restoration etc.
    But what about all my other movies. I tried john carpenters the Thing the other day and it had a very annoying buzzing or edgey effect around all the the lines.
    Star trek the motion picture had blurry pixelation. Both these are big films released as special editions. Obviously not special enuf for a 43 inch plasma.
    Will an expensive dvd player help?
    I'm planing to by a HD dvd player when they become available, do u think they will play regular dvds aswell.
    Have u ever noticed dvds having that colour problem like vcds? expecially on light sources and flames etc.
    I thought having a HDMI connection would just show these flaws up even more.
    Have plasmas got a lower refresh rate than CRTs?
    I have noticed ghosting, is that also a fault in the source material?

    Cheers
    Tony

    P.s. Sorry bout the typos, im at work and im surposed to be working and not writing this... :thumbsup:
     
  25. preda_king

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    Just got a question. If I were to play a VHS on the plasma I should get an images that is blurry, but not pixelated right?
    As it's an analogue signal running through an analogue connector.
    Unlike the skys and dvds digital through analogue.

    For some reason, the input I have the video hooked up to dosen't seem to give RGB support (another input also had a feature present and one missing on another input) Would this matter alot the the quality of the output, or can I just leave it in Video PAL mode rather than RGB

    Tony
     
  26. MAW

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    Tony, no VHS on earth has RGB anyway, so if you connect to a Pioneer RGB scart you will in fact get no picture at all.
    I side with you though, I simply cannot see how anyone can possibly find the FDE/XDE plasmas even 'tolerable' on RGB scart. I would say the same of the PV500, and the Hitachi 7200. I was never that fussy about CRT picture, it's only become an issue for me since I had plasma. I curently run a PHD7 panasonic and a scaler. No 'integrated TV plasma' comes close in terms of overall PQ for any signal. If you happen to be a pioneer man, the MXE-1 can be very good like this too. I just don't think plasma tv technology is there yet, the internal electronics of such things still do not produce a CRT like picture. The closest approach is probably the panasonic panels, but even then connectivity is a huge issue, it has to be done right. It's so much easier to get an acceptable picture on CRT.
     
  27. rpb

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    If we take it as read that most of the channels on Sky will be ropey, how about digital terrestrial ? Hopefully bandwith is not so restricted there and a 42" HD plasma should give an OK display.

    My dilema is that over the next year 90% of my viewing will either be digital terrestrial or Sky (I generally only watch the freeview channels, so could use either source). 10% of my viewing will be DVDs. From what I am reading the display may be worse on an HD plasma than on my current CRT.

    However, after next year my viewing could change to Sky HD and Blu ray, if I had the right screen. Because of that I will not get an SD screen.

    I could therefore stick with a CRT for the coming year, but is plasma technology going to improve all that much in a year? Do Pioneer and Panasonic bring out new products annually, or should I jump in now ?
     
  28. Cwhelan

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    Hi Preda King,

    I've had my Pio for 9 months now & it's much better than any CRT I've owned even with Crap SKY. DVD's however are amazing. One thing I will add is that I had Gordon ISF my screen 3-4 months ago & it made a massive difference, even to Sky.

    One other point, I get a better picture from Sky on my Plasma than I do on the Two LCD's I have!! :mad: - Who said LCD is the way forward??

    Conor.
     
  29. dejongj

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    Hmm that's a bit harsh. I know you spend a lot of time on here and provide a lot of very usefull advice but this I think is utter rubish. I really wanted a Pioneer 435, my wife wanted it as well because of the looks...There were quite a few posts on here about the rubbish picture picture with Sky...We saw the display models in the usual suspects, Currys, CostCo, Hispek and yes it looked rubbish and grainy...We really discounted it from out list...But then I went last Saturday in Sevenoaks and was blown away, I asked and asked again is this really the Pio? Then I went past Richer Sounds and yes again great quality....Then I bought one and set it up with my second generation Sky+ and crappy scart (used to have my Sky via component to a switch box to both an HD LCD and Projector) and bingo...Fantastic picture...Yes it shows up the faults on the low-bandwidth channels, but so did my 8ft wide projector screen...Take a look on Animal Planet and National Geographic before the Pio gets blamed....

    Unwatcheable picture, buzzing from the screen, sounds like a faulty unit or dispite what you are saying a setup which is not correctly configured...

    For justification my experiences for references are limited to a 32" CRT in the bedroom, a 17" HD LCD, a LCD Project on 8-ft screen and my 1920x1200 HD computer....

    Anyway the point is, if you can't imagine how anyone can find those screens tolerable than I think you may be removed a little bit too far from the general public....LOL An AV politician....
     
  30. MAW

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    No, not removed I know the ones I have installed the customers have been pretty happy with. The bit that gets me is that to do it properly costs little if any more to do, unless you are going to stick your plasma on a desk stand in the corner, in which case the 435 is the one for you. By the time you get involved in a proper install, the extras bump the cost up so much it's cheaper to get away from proprietary cables etc. Sure, it's really lousy in Currys etc, and very much better in any 1/2 way reasonable place like Richer, where they do try. I'm not a cost elitist, I just point out that if the video image is more important than the shiny black surround, look elsewhere.
     

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