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Pioneer HDE plasma & Centrestage2

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by prof yaffle, Apr 12, 2003.

  1. prof yaffle

    prof yaffle
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    Newbie post, so pls be kind.....

    Have recently bought a CS2 scaler which I'm trying to set-up to feed my Pioneer PDP 503HDE plasma.

    Sources currently hooked up to the CS2 are: Sky+ box (via JS RGB-YUV converter) into YUV A & Tivo (via JS RGB-Svideo converter) into Svideo A (others to follow when I get some more BNC cables...). I'm outputting from the CS2 on RGB colourspace (the Pio doesn't like YUV) via the VGA output into the VGA input on the front of the Pio media box (the PC input).

    Am currently running the CS2 at an output of 'WXGA 60Hz' syncing on H/V (G/Y gives no picture); this resolution (1280x768) should match the native resolution of the 503HDE & (according to the Pio manual) 60Hz is the only frequency permitted for this resolution. Running this set-up through the PC input on the plasma, I get 3 picture shape choices (Full1, 4:3, Full2) - I'm using Full2 as this is the only one that gives me a stable 16:9 picture (Full1 defaults the resolution down to 1024x768 & gives nasty vertical banding on the picture).

    First thing... PQ is in general excellent. Tivo (even via Svideo) is amazingly clean & there is a definite improvement on Sky+, esp when watching the footy - less 'tizzing' round the edge of players.

    However, some definite concerns that I'm hoping someone can help out with:

    1 Picture is 'jerky' - a big problem. On both Sky+ & Tivo, any movement (sideways & vertically) is stop-start. Particularly noticeable on the scrolling news tickertape on Sky News & when watching the ball moving across the screen on the footy, but evident to some extent on all content.

    2 Can't 'snap in' the picture. Have read some of the posts in this forum & understand that the best PQ comes from snapping the scaler output directly onto the physical pixels of the plasma to eliminate scaling in the plasma as well. Have tried the test patterns on the CS2 (supplied in firmware 2.04) & whilst I can get the coarse pattern to work (e.g. Checker 8) the finer ones (Checker 1 & 2) show nasty rainbow effects. Have tried moving & stretching the picture horizontally & vertically via the CS2 menus, but no joy.

    Would be grateful if anyone has any advice - particularly re how to fix the stop-start picture issue. Am hoping to get Gordon down at some point to calibrate the system, but would like to have it a bit more watchable until then.

    Thanks,
    Simon

    PS Kinda related... has anyone got the Pronto friendly IR remote code for direct access to the PC Input on the 503HDE? Can't find it on the remotecentral website... & although there is a macro workaround, it's a pain.
     
  2. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    The judder is a frame rate conversion artifact. Pretty sure of it. Is it not possible to try a refresh of 75Hz or 72Hz from CS2 at that resolution? Also to do aspect ratio control use the CS-2's aspect control functionality. IE Tell it you have a 16:9 display and then adjust aspect ratio by changing incoming signal aspect from letterbox to 4:3 to anamorphic.

    Gordon
     
  3. peter350

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    Well I am also a plasma newbie as I have only had a 433mxe for 10 days but I am using it with a Rock scaler so I have had to deal with scaler issues.

    Do you get clock and phase controls on the hde? This is what I used to get a clear tracking and phase test screen on the rock.

    I find 70 is the best refresh so far but your mileage may vary and I am still experimenting.

    Hope this is some help.

    Regards Peter
     
  4. prof yaffle

    prof yaffle
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    Peter350 - found the clock & phase controls on the HDE (thanks) & after playing with the settings have now got a clear, stable test screen on the finest checkerboard setting. Think this means I'm now snapped in to the scaler output... unfortunately, the picture judder on a live picture is still all too apparent. :-(

    Gordon - re refresh rate... unfortunately I think the HDE only supports 1280x768 @ 60Hz. Although the CS2 can output 1280x768 @ 50Hz/75Hz (can't seem to select 72Hz), the HDE won't recognise that resolution at those frequencies - instead it shows that it is receiving 1024x768 (even though it's being fed 1280) & the picture degrades accordingly. Not sure if there is a service menu option to change this...?

    Didn't quite get what you meant about aspect ratio conversion? For both sources I'm specifying 16:9 input & 16:9 output; thought that would be correct as the Pio is 16:9 & the outputs from both Tivo & Sky+ are set at 16:9 - am I missing something???


    Any other thoughts welcomed re how to fix the picture judder... hopefully someone out there has got a CS1/CS2 working successfully with a 503HDE?
     
  5. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Having the output of Skyplus etc set to 16:9 just means that the box will not do anamorphic squeeze on such"anamorphically enhanced" material. You'll still find there will be channels that require the aspect to change (ie SkyNews is 4:3, CH4 News is 4:3) etc. TO get them the right shape don't use control of plasma use the "INPUT" aspect ratio control of CS-2. It'll do a better job, pretty sure of it.

    There are no service menu items I know of to get it to recognise the refresh you require.

    Gordon
     
  6. prof yaffle

    prof yaffle
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    Peter350 - out of interest, what output resolution are you running from your Rock? You say its at 70Hz, but I'd be interested to know what resolution you're feeding the 433MXE.

    Think the issue to do with the 503HDE picture 'judder' may reflect one of the nasty differences between the HDE & MXE panels. I think the Pioneer panels may only be happy taking PC-like inputs at exactly 70Hz... and that you can't feed the HDE its native resolution (1280x768) at anything other than 60Hz. Excellent...
     
  7. peter350

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    I am running at 1024 x 768 which is the native rate of the 433mxe.
    I have tried refreshes 70 extensively and 60, 75 and 72 briefly.

    All produced a clear tracking and phase test screen after adjustments.

    None demonstrated judder although the Rock claims a special anti-judder feature.

    The main artefact I found was tearing on fast motion (the impression of a horizontal join appearing briefly in the picture). 60 and 75 demonstrated tearing as soon as I tried fast motion material. I noticed a tearing at 72 during casual viewing.

    However at 70 I have seen no tearing at all and when I am not fiddling I stick with that so far.

    On film based material including Sky films and filmed tv shows the picture looks pretty good. There is some combing on motion on low quality video material (e.g. coronation street etc.) which is not affected by changing the refresh and I am blaming the source material.

    Unsurprisingly the Rock at native rate blows away the built in video card inc when driven by a prog scan dvd.

    I have also tried the Rock at the hi-def video standard 720p. The mxe regards this is as a rgb video input not a pc input so only 60hz is possible for R1 material (I didn't try this with R2). This was a good picture but not as good as native rate. I tried this after reading about some new card for the mxe where the manufacturers claim it is better to address the mxe with 720p than 1024 x 768 (Aurora?) I don't recall any tearing and presumably away from native rate the plasma handled the refresh issue more politely.

    Have you tried feeding the hde 720p from the CS-2. This could be better than letting the plasma do all the scaling but hopefully the plasma would handle the refresh politely as it does with standard def input? Just a thought.


    Regards Peter
     
  8. prof yaffle

    prof yaffle
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    Hi Peter - yes I've tried a 720p feed from the CS2. That too showed tearing & judder on motion - & weirdly the picture was way too tall for the screen (even after adjusting) - even though the screen is 768 lines tall...

    Others out there may know for sure... but I'm starting to suspect that ANY resolution/frequency fed into the HDE via the VGA PC input on the front of the media box is interpreted as a PC signal - even if it is a native video res like 720p.

    From what I can tell, all 'PC' signals received by the HDE are converted for display purposes to 70Hz - so if it's not being fed 70Hz (maybe 72Hz at a pinch) then you get judder.

    This may well explain why your MXE panel is happiest at 70Hz - it's quite possible the same conversion of PC-like inputs is being done. Key difference is that I think the MXEs (both the 43" & 50") can take inputs at their native resolution at a variety of frequencies - so you can feed NR from your scaler @ 70Hz and hence get round the judder issue.

    I'm planning on setting up a custom output from my CS2 to feed 1024x768 to the HDE at 70Hz - this won't fill the screen but it might prove the issue re the motion judder.

    I'll put up a post once I've tested to let you know how I get on...

    Rgds
    Simon
     

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