Pioneer @ CES 2008

andrewfee

Novice Member
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/PressRoom/Press+Releases/Pioneer+Announces+KURO+Flat+Panel+Technology+Concepts+That+Will+End+the+Contrast+Ratio+Discussion+and+Show+an+Ultra+Thin+9MM+Thick+Display said:
Pioneer Announces KURO Flat Panel Technology Concepts That Will End the Contrast Ratio Discussion and Show an Ultra Thin 9MM Thick Display

Exploiting the advantages of self-emitting plasma technology, Pioneers takes “Seeing and Hearing Like Never Before” to Greater Heights, Previewing 50-inch Project KURO Concepts Showing Extreme Contrast and Advanced Design

LAS VEGAS, CES Booth #9827 1/6/2008

Pioneer Corporation today unveils concepts for future display technologies under the code name “Project KURO.” After a year in which Pioneer proved that its award-winning plasma technology is leagues above the rest of the HDTV industry in picture quality, Pioneer engineers today will preview future Project KURO concepts showing extreme contrast and advanced design that will further the idea that plasma is the best high-definition television technology and that the future is black and thin.

The extreme contrast concept will challenge the contrast ratio debate by producing the industry’s first plasma that is absolute black with no measurable light emitting from the television. At the same time, Pioneer is previewing an advanced design concept that is the world’s thinnest 50-inch display at only nine millimeters (mm) thin. It seems that Pioneer is only improving on its own achievements in picture quality and design, but Pioneer’s true engineering passion is to deliver an emotional entertainment experience through the development of the highest picture quality.

“For more than a year, Project KURO has been a brand mantra within Pioneer that represents our commitment to deliver the most passionate and emotional entertainment experience possible,” said Russ Johnston, executive vice president of marketing and product planning for the Home Entertainment and Business Solutions Group at Pioneer Electronics (USA) Inc. “The KURO technology concepts demonstrate how we are continuing to challenge the industry and stay above the commoditized flat panel television market – by literally ending the conversation about contrast ratio, a debate that has been in existence since television was first introduced, and creating a flat panel display so thin it becomes a canvas for entertainment.”

To put this into perspective, consumers need to understand the contrast ratio debate. Contrast ratio is defined as the ratio of the luminosity of the brightest color (white) to that of the darkest color (black). While manufacturers all measure this differently, they agree that a high contrast ratio is desirable to recreate ideal picture quality. In televisions, the truer the black, the more accurate the color.

Black encompasses the entire color spectrum and is produced in the absence of light. By nature, televisions produce luminance (light) and this dilutes black and color. That is why it is so important that Pioneer can achieve absolute black in the Project KURO extreme contrast concept. The display is so black that even when it is on with no image displayed, the television is invisible when you walk into a completely dark room. It has a contrast ratio that is literally beyond measurement, rendering the debate of contrast ratio irrelevant and providing the consumer a rich picture filled with vibrant penetrating color.

“Thanks to the self emitting principle of plasma, we were able to crack the code on plasma luminance. Pioneer technology has advanced to the point where we have achieved virtually zero idling luminance in more than six million cells, previously thought to be impossible. The result is, in essence, absolute black with no measurable light coming from the television. For consumers, this creates the experience that the image is floating in space, with a picture that has exceptional detail and vivid color. Ultimately, our goal is focused on bringing to market a new KURO that unifies the extreme contrast and advanced design concepts to transcend anything currently possible in home entertainment. We feel that this will not only surpass our previous best, it will completely change the playing field.” said Yoichi Sato, senior executive officer and chief technology executive at Pioneer Cooperation.

Pioneer’s concept for the world’s thinnest 50-inch flat panel display is also part of Pioneer’s engineering passion. At only nine millimeters (mm) thin, this groundbreaking Project KURO technology results in a picture that appears to be floating on a wall, creating an experience for consumers where the television becomes simply a canvas for great entertainment. In addition, its extremely light weight (18.6kg/ 41lbs) allows the television to be easily wall mounted, contributing handsomely to interior décor without distracting—providing a spectacular setting for watching films.

These fully-operational concept televisions will not be commercially-available in 2008.

Pioneer Corporation is a leading global manufacturer of consumer- and business-use electronics products such as audio, video and car electronics. Its shares are traded on the Tokyo Stock Exchange.

PIONEER and ELITE are registered trademarks of Pioneer Corporation.
Why must they tease? :(
 

SATM

Well-known Member
Why must they tease? :(
Could it be that with Fujitsu withdrawing from manufacturing,and certain "pundits" forecasting the death of Plasma,Pioneer wish to demonstrate to the doom-mongers that there is life in,and a future for, the technology.
 

eric pisch

Novice Member
/drool power marketing at work

sounds great dont it, so mk1 released in 09-10 and mk2 with bug fixes in 10-11, great my kuro will be paid for then ready for gen 2 :D

reality do i need it? When its showing black i cant tell if the damn thing is on or off anyway :p

i would need to rebuild my internal wall (and the kitchen on the other side) to wall mount so the current set is plenty thin enough for me and my tables rated at 100kgs so the weights not an issue :devil:
 

eric pisch

Novice Member
Could it be that with Fujitsu withdrawing from manufacturing,and certain "pundits" forecasting the death of Plasma,Pioneer wish to demonstrate to the doom-mongers that there is life in,and a future for, the technology.
probably

and probably about building kudos for the brand, building it up, showing your technology is at the fore front, getting people to talk about you, having them percieve you as a fore leader in technology. In the same way the 103" plasma got worldwide national press and sonys fantastic quality but totally pointless 11" oled set, who on earth wants a 11" tv, i want 111" :D its a technological show case and builds the brand.

look at Audi in the UK advertising the R8 like mad with a very slick advert, the amount this advert has cost to run over so many channels for so long will blow there profits on the R8 (very limited numbers available in the UK) for the next 5 years, but it builds the brand and reinforces the brand values such as precission, style, engeneering excellence etc etc

If your going to be a niche low volume brand value is critical
 
I would be keen to change my tv to a new model. It will be 3 old years by then ;)

Only problem I have limited space, yes its nice to have a massive tv on the wall but for me it needs to fit a corner and not a wall. :(
 

andrewfee

Novice Member
My main issue is that they don't give any indication on how far off this technology is. For all we know it could be 5+ years away before it's affordable, or it could be next year.

Frankly, the 8G Pioneer's black levels are still rubbish in my opinion. Ok, they're the best flat panel out there, but you're still stuck with a CRT if you're watching in a black room.

Hopefully with a breakthrough like this, it will have helped them cut the black level on the 9th generation screens to at least 1/3 to 1/4 of what it is now. That's something I could maybe live with for a while if their prices drop a bit.

It's either that, sticking with my CRTs, or picking up a cheap Panasonic until these "perfect" Kuros come out.
 

JeffD

Well-known Member
My main issue is that they don't give any indication on how far off this technology is. For all we know it could be 5+ years away before it's affordable, or it could be next year
From my reading of a post on the US AVSFORUM from someone I trust, Pioneer are displaying 2 new concept Kuro models at CES, the headline grabbing 9mm thick Extreme Contrast models you've already posted on, but apparently there is also a conventionally sized concept model which also uses the Extreme Contrast tech. The 9mm model won't be available apparently due to the factories not being able to mass produce such a design yet, but the normal sized Extreme Contrast contrast model could well turn out to be a glimspe of what to expect from 2008 9G Kuro.
 

andrewfee

Novice Member
Just going to sum things up:

Coming spring 08, adding a 46" model to the plasma range, have dropped 37" so it's now 42,46,50,58 that they offer.

Contrast is up to 30,000:1 on the high end 1080p models now, from 10,000:1 last year.
Proper 24Hz support for judder-free movie playback.
Game mode to eliminate input lag.
THX Certified - this is the interesting bit.

Panasonic PR said:
Leveraging its expertise in the cinema, post-production and consumer electronics markets, THX ensures that certified televisions will perform to rigorous standards outlined by the THX Certified Display program. THX certification ensures that high definition (HD) and standard definition content are presented with the correct color, luminance levels and video processing capabilities, regardless of the display technology. In addition, each THX Certified display will feature a proprietary video setting, THX Movie Mode, to recreate the cinema experience of movies on DVD, Blu-ray, HD-DVD and broadcast television in the home. THX Movie mode sets the display’s gamma, luminance, color temperature and other settings to match the levels found in the professional post-production studio where movies are produced.
My main issue with the Panasonics in the past has been their colour reproduction (green is inaccurate) and gamma, so I could be buying a Panasonic next year if the new Pioneer tech is still a few years away. (though I've heard a rumour that only the 9mm concept mode is "not in 08" and that the 2nd gen Kuros later this year will use the "perfect contrast" tech)

I'd like to know what the THX spec specifically is though, and what the tolerances on it are. It would be great if TVs were finally coming properly calibrated out of the box. (Panasonic did something similar to it last year in USA, but if we have a THX spec then hopefully everyone will start doing it)
 

Badger0-0

Member
Just going to sum things up:

Coming spring 08, adding a 46" model to the plasma range, have dropped 37" so it's now 42,46,50,58 that they offer.

Contrast is up to 30,000:1 on the high end 1080p models now, from 10,000:1 last year.
Proper 24Hz support for judder-free movie playback.
Game mode to eliminate input lag.
THX Certified - this is the interesting bit.


My main issue with the Panasonics in the past has been their colour reproduction (green is inaccurate) and gamma, so I could be buying a Panasonic next year if the new Pioneer tech is still a few years away. (though I've heard a rumour that only the 9mm concept mode is "not in 08" and that the 2nd gen Kuros later this year will use the "perfect contrast" tech)

I'd like to know what the THX spec specifically is though, and what the tolerances on it are. It would be great if TVs were finally coming properly calibrated out of the box. (Panasonic did something similar to it last year in USA, but if we have a THX spec then hopefully everyone will start doing it)
I've noticed colour reproduction is poor on a lot of flat screen tellies, so I know what you're saying :smashin:

I just hope the specs are better than the THX sound specs though.
I've just bought an (admittedly older) THX amp and it has destroyed my sound.
I'm seriously thinking of giving it to the daughter for the spare room or even worse, throwing it in the bin.
What THX think you should have and what you personally like are two entirely different things, is what I'm trying to get at :)
 

andrewfee

Novice Member
I've noticed colour reproduction is poor on a lot of flat screen tellies, so I know what you're saying :smashin:

I just hope the specs are better than the THX sound specs though.
I've just bought an (admittedly older) THX amp and it has destroyed my sound.
I'm seriously thinking of giving it to the daughter for the spare room or even worse, throwing it in the bin.
What THX think you should have and what you personally like are two entirely different things, is what I'm trying to get at :)
Well hopefully the "THX Spec" is just the same as the proper specifications but I suspect it's not going to be as strict.

Images of the new range:







Even if they get all the primaries/secondaries perfect, the colour reproduction will still only be good with bright colours, as with all flat panels. They need to sort out the black levels to really improve the colour reproduction. (everything just looks washed out right now)
 

Badger0-0

Member
Crikey, that's thin :thumbsup:

Re the black levels, that's just inherent in the technology and it is edging it's way forward, IMO.
You watch, they'll just crack it and then it'll all move over to OLED etc :(

If you had perfection, you wouldn't want to buy new, would you? :thumbsdow
 

brett3vans

Active Member
D

drpellypo

Guest
In light of this, are there going to be some px70 bargains to be had soon? That's all I need and want at the mo!
 
does look like its the end of the swivel stand and the cabinet though. lots of annoucements lets hope they provide the improvements we hope to see and are just not marketing. The game mode could be a big draw to get more gamers to switch to plasma
 

sampo

Novice Member
Apparently the black levels on the 11G Panasonics still aren't as good as the 8G Pioneers and they're making up the higher CR by being brighter. (which is pointless as HDTVs are bright enough)
Do you have any reliable source for this info? There's only talk about panasonic delivering blacker blacks with their new lineup. source
 

andrewfee

Novice Member
Do you have any reliable source for this info? There's only talk about panasonic delivering blacker blacks with their new lineup. source
I think D-Nice over at AVS said something about them being 0.009fL whereas the Pioneers are 0.004fL. Then again I don't know how reliable he is.

I do know that the blacks on last year's Panasonic 1080p models were worse than their previous "720p" ones so it doesn't seem unrealistic.

I don't see why Pioneer wouldn't be releasing 9G models this year though. Whether or not they have this high contrast tech is another matter.

Even if they don't, I doubt the processing on the Panasonics will have caught up so they'll hardly be "superior."
 

sampo

Novice Member
Then again I don't know how reliable he is.
He's wrong most of the times. 2008 1080P models are built from groud up according to Panasonic, but I haven't confirmed this info. Maybe the following info about Panasonic 5lm/w plasma has something to do with these panels:

"the company suggested that incremental efficiency improvements will start to be commercialized from 2008 and that more substantial improvements would be productized in 2009. Higher brightness, greater contrast and excellent color reproduction were all clearly visible in the higher lumen per Watt demo." source

"Finally, there was a sneak peak at what’s coming for plasma –A prototype of these was on display and there was no denying its impact. In fact, it kind of spoilt the effect when going back to the current line up." source
 

pcookie

Novice Member
Ah! the joys of marketing! It may be my imagination, but didn't Pioneer do the same demonstration with the 8G Kuro where the screen was totally black in a dark room? How come it's not black anymore? Honestly, companies continue to say their product is the best ever...until an even better one comes along! At least the price of the 8G's should start top drop to an acceptable level.

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