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Pioneer 868 - Questions re: HDMI

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by rimibar, Feb 2, 2004.

  1. rimibar

    rimibar
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    Hi,

    I have an Optoma H50 projector, and would like to know whether it can process the HDMI output offered by the Pioneer 868?

    I don't really understand how it functions - this may well be a stupid question, but any help gratefully accepted!

    Thanks in advance,

    Richard :smashin:
     
  2. Docta teef

    Docta teef
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    I was looking to do the same with an H56 and the 668 I was informed by seven oaks that the 2 would not work together as the H56 is not an hdmi input but a DVI-D as is the H30
     
  3. Garnot

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    HDMI and DVI-D are fully compatible regarding to video. The difference is that HDMI also carries Audio and DVI-D only video. The possible problem is that the Optomas aren't HDCP (High Definition Content Protected).

    HDMI and DVI-D are a 2 way comunication connection between the source (DV-668/868) and the display device. If both are HDCP, then they'll communicate. If the Optoma is not HDCP compliant, it won't work with the Pioneers 668/868 or the Denon A11.

    :)
     
  4. Matthew J Taylo

    Matthew J Taylo
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    Garnot,

    Does this mean that if I want to connect my Pio 868Avi-s to a plasma via DVI & not HDMI all I need to do is to check to see if the plasma is HDCP compliant?

    I want to see if I can connect my Pio DVD player to the Panny 6 series plasma as it's much cheaper than the Pio 434 & the PQ I've seen is great?

    Kind Regards

    Matt
     
  5. Dutch

    Dutch
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    Matthew,

    The DVI blade for the Panny series 6 is HDCP compliant, so it will be compatible with HDMI. Have you seen the SD or HD version? Be aware that the SD version only has a 480 line resolution so there wouldn't be much point in using the 868's scaling capabilities. Hope this helps.

    Steve
     
  6. Garnot

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    Matthew,

    Wether it's HDMI or DVI, it should be HDCP compliant. If it is, it will work.

    :)
     
  7. hornydragon

    hornydragon
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    Anyone know if samsung DVD will work on DVi input of none HDCP displays?
     
  8. Matthew J Taylo

    Matthew J Taylo
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    Hi Dutch,

    Blade? do you mean the connector?

    SD or HD? how can I ensure that I'm buying the right plasma?

    Finally, do I simply purchase a DVI-D cable & plug this directly into the 868AVi-s & then directly into the Panny? I'm not sure if you can purchase a DVI board for the Panny?

    Apologies for all the questions

    Cheers

    Matt
     
  9. hornydragon

    hornydragon
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    HD panny has different model noPWD6 instead of PW6??? cant remember off the top of my head. HD either comes with DVi or you can buy the card, defo available but not sure, not at work so dont have info to hand mate. MAW will know tho.
     
  10. uczmeg

    uczmeg
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    I had a non HDCP projector and used it with the 935.

    I got a signal in 720p mode despite the manual saying I shouldn't have been able too.

    Cheers
    Marc
     
  11. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    I am not sure all the advice being given here is entirely accurate :). DVI and HDMI are NOT the same, similar yes but certainly not the same. My post on digital interfaces might help here. For starters HDMI can be 14 bit as opposed to 8 bit DVI! (just a small difference, for the future) but over looked by those rushing to claim they are identical

    It is not just a HDCP issue but also what DVI can do. DVI is a 'computer' interface, HDMI is an AV interface. What I really mean is that most DVI inputs don't accept anything (like RGB Inputs nowdays) but only a certain few frequencies. 480p fine, but try and get many to understanf 576P and they often play dumb as it is an AV format and not used by 'computers'.

    It isn't just about HDCP it is much more complicated. My digital interfaces thread should give you all you need to then ask the sensible questions to get the right answer from manufacturers.
     
  12. Garnot

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    It's entirely accurate regarding to DVD players digital outputs. You're right on that HDMI is capable of a higher (12 bit) bit per component YCbCr. HDMI can go as far as 1080p contrary to DVI. But at this time, the DV-868 is sending 8 bits per RGB channel (Bbit X 3 = 24bits) when connected with a DVI-to-HDMI cable.

    There is a DVI version for computers but the DVI-D version we are talking here is the A/V DVI-D version. When we talk about A/V (Home Theater) DVI, is about the DVI-D connector.

    :)
     
  13. rscott4563

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    DVD is limited to 8bits per colour channel isn't it, therefore not capable of taking advantage of any further benifit HDMI may have over DVI.

    Also on the subject of resolutions, apart from the fact that DVI can't handle interlaced resolutions, isn't it actaully down to the EDID information in the DVI input board that would limit the accepted resolutions not the actual technology itself, as with the Panny DVI board for its plasmas, people seem to be having issues getting it to accept a native resolution, but someone (can't remember their name) has managed to reprogram the eprom to tell it to accpet the native resolution. So as long as the manufacturer has programmed the DVI input properly then there should be no problem accepting a HDMI input..

    Ryan :smashin:
     
  14. Garnot

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    Ryan,

    The problem is that we know what's doing the HDMI output DVD player when connected to a DVI-D display input. HDMI & DVI-D are a 2 ways communication connectors. The source will receive the signal from the display to go ahead as a DVI-D format (8bits per color channel) when connected in that way. I'm not sure if the Pioneer DV-868 is sending 10 or 12bits when connected as HDMI-to-HDMI. I won't asume anything here.

    By the way, HDMI/DVI are capable of any interlaced or progressive signals up to 1080i. However, HDMI is capable of 1080p. DVI definitively can transmitt interlaced signal such as 1080i.

    :)
     
  15. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    DVD is 8 bit and I think this is all we are using at the moment with HDMI. The rest is for the future.

    The point I am making is it isn’t as simple as plugging HDMI outputs into DVI D inputs (ignoring HDCP). DVI D inputs are VERY restricted in comparison to their HDMI cousins. Also there are a few oddball (R2) issues that still need to be ‘ironed’ out BUT this should be being done in the compatibility testing labs. The only way to find out is to try.

    As I understand it at the moment conventional RGB inputs analyse all signals and lock onto what it detects. DVI D inputs are programmed to specific ‘computer’ based resolutions and many older DVI inputs don’t analyse per se but try and lock to a specific set of computer based resolutions. The problem arises because all the DVD resolutions are NOT on that list (this is why it was possible to reprogram the Panny by changing a few numbers in the code).

    This also ignores 480i/576I HDMI inputs issues, PAL ‘resolutions’ (can’t see them in the HDMI spec!!) and several other oddities. Pioneer HDMI output to Pioneer HDMI input works well, the problems arise when HDMI outputs are fed to DVI input in general hence my warning about them NOT being the same. It is easy to make mistakes here.
     
  16. JohnWH

    JohnWH
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    I beleive this is jmos, so firware upgrades could fix the issues with "supported" resolutions. Obviousley the companies selling the PJ's want you to upgrade so I suspect this isn't generally going happen.

    John.
     
  17. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    Exactly, it is possibly only the willingness to do this is missing :)
     
  18. Matthew J Taylo

    Matthew J Taylo
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    Just recieved this in my tray


    http://www.cable-shop.co.uk/shop/customer/product.php?productid=182&cat=82&page=1

    It looks as if you can purchase a HDMI to HDMI or a HDMI to DVI connectors from the Cable Shop, £179 sounds a bit steep, Techtronics are selling (well, if they had any that is!!) HDMI cables for 29 squids.

    It;s all falling into place to purchase the Panny for my Pio 686avi-s

    Cheers
    Matt
     
  19. JohnWH

    JohnWH
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    I'd be interrested to here what your results are like. I'm using the samsung 935 and seem to suffer the usual black level and green tint issues. However, having found that I get same problems with dvi fed from my PC when playing vid I'm now convinced this is just an issue with the PJ being setup for use with computers over DVI not video. I've just picked up the key sequnce to get into the service menu of my PJ so will try correcting the problem there.

    Anyway will be interresting to here how smoothly it goes for you...

    John.
     
  20. Matthew J Taylo

    Matthew J Taylo
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    John,

    You may need to wait for a while, I've been talking about buying a plasma for the last year!!

    I'm getting closer, the Pio 868AVi-s I recently purchased + the increased PQ of the latest pj's has spurred me on.

    Would just like to know if it's worth buying the Panni PWD6 (HD plasma) & connecting it via a HDMI to DVI-D connection, how much of diff on PQ is this going to make Vs a HDMI to HDMI connection - if I can answer that, I'm a lot closer, £1,000 closer in fact!!

    Will let you know how I get on

    Cheer Matt
     
  21. rscott4563

    rscott4563
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    As long as the connection works, which it should, then there will be no difference in picture quality when comparing HDMI -> HDMI to HDMI -> DVI, as there is no conversion of the signal going on, i.e. its the same over a HDMI -> HDMI cable as it is over a HDMI -> DVI cable.

    Cheers

    Ryan
     
  22. Matthew J Taylo

    Matthew J Taylo
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    Ryan,

    Thanks mate, about the only one who's used the english language to explain things.

    The TH42PWD6 Panny plasma is the cheapest, £2,474 @ IVOJO.CO.UK but it looks as if I'm going to have to buy quite a few terminal boards
    1 - DVI terminal board for HDMI to DVI-D @ £146

    2 - Scart board for Ps2 @ £146 (I could daisy this via my digibox)?

    I assume the 15 pin, D sub terminal (already on the plasma) I can use for a JS tec RGB scart to VGA connector for my digital cable & Ps2 if daisied?

    Not sure if you know all this, if not hopefully someone following this thread will be able to answer me questions.

    Whlist I'm at it, JS tech's also make a scart RGB to composite converter, is this better than the rgb scart to vga convertor?

    Cheers
    matt
     
  23. rscott4563

    rscott4563
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    I'd certainly recommend Ivojo, I've got my 50" Panny on order from them, great service from Ken.

    Not to sure of which is better RGB2VGA or RGB2Component (I assume you mean component not composite :thumbsdow ) but you should be able to daisy chain and then just use one converter (VGA) and input straight to the PC HD15 input on the plasma, definitely better than the scart option and cheaper to boot.

    Cheers

    Ryan
     
  24. Matthew J Taylo

    Matthew J Taylo
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    Thanks Ryan,

    You wouldn't happen to know which terminal board I would need to have installed for a HDMI to DVI-D connection?

    I've got the manual infront of me & ti doesn't make alot of sense. I'm sure I need a terminal that will allow for a 1125(1080)/60i signal? (is this the best resolution?, ie 1080 lines?

    The RGB terminal boad, TY-42TM6D (DigitalW/HDCP) looks like the fella but I'm not too sure if this will give the best quality picture Vs the PC Input, TY-42TM6P/G ?

    Nexnix do quote the TM6D as the RGB DVI Digital Terminal Board

    I'm a bit lost here? - Panny pdf below

    Cheers
    Matt

    http://www.nexnix.co.uk/pds/docs/Panasonic Plasma 6.pdf[/URL]
     
  25. rscott4563

    rscott4563
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    The TY-42TM6D is the only DVI card available and the only way to feed the plasma a digital signal from your DVD player, its RGB as thats the transport medium for DVI.

    As to 1080i (1125i) this could be the best resolution but its not a definate, obviously you'll be able to try different combinations, 720p could be a better choice as that way the DVD player is doing the deinterlacing not the plasma, though it depends on how good the deinterlacing is in the player compared to the plasma.

    Ryan
     
  26. rimibar

    rimibar
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    Hi Everyone,

    Fascinating to read all the different posts stemming from my original query - thanks!

    I spoke with Optoma and found out (as mentioned previsouly) that the H50 has a DVI input, and whilst it is possible to plug the 868's HDMI signal into it, all of the HDMI signal is output with HDCP encoding.

    Therefore (gasp for air :lesson: ) I cannot connect the 868 to my existing projector. I am very disappointed at this, and would like to ask you all whether there is anything further I can do to improve the image of my setup.

    Are there are any other hi-spec DVD players (ideally with DVDA and SACD) that I could connect to my existing system and enjoy significantly better performance?

    Look forward to learning from your responses!

    Richard
     
  27. Dutch

    Dutch
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    Hi Richard,

    You might be out of luck finding a non-HDCP DVI output player with DVD-A and SACD - the big manufacturers won't risk providing an unencrpyted digital output. You might want to consider something like a Momitsu V880 which can output a superb digital picture from it's non-HDCP DVI. It can provide a 1024x768 signal which would be perfect for your H50, so only one scaling operation would be required. Hope this helps.

    Steve
     
  28. hornydragon

    hornydragon
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    HK DVD30??? PAL PS and looked great on an H56 when i installed one!
    Prog scan DVD-A excelllent CD playback and 2 year warranty if bought new!
     
  29. rimibar

    rimibar
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    Horny - What is an HK DVD30? Where can I find one?

    For the V880 Dutch, where should I look?

    Thanks for your help (again!)
     
  30. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    rimibar

    There is hope!

    All DVD players are not created equal - the Panasonic DVD-S75 is not at the top of the NON HDMI/DVI equipped player list.

    If you want an upgrade that covers both the audio and the video why not consider an Arcam DV89 with decent quality video cables and you'll get a significant jump in quality over your current player.

    If you want to concentrate on just a visual improvement and you like the idea of the DVI Digital interconnectivity why not add one of the soon to be released DVDO UltraHD external processors between your current DVD and the H56 - this way you can also improve the image from any other video sources you may have.

    Whilst Digital interconnectivity may well be the way forward for many its not the only way to get a high quality video signal into your H56.

    Best regards

    Joe
     

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