Pioneer 757i or Pioneer 868i?????

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by poona, Feb 21, 2004.

  1. poona

    poona
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    Please can you you guys/girls advise on which of the DVD player is worth getting, bearing in mind the following points:

    757i about 450 pounds multi region
    868i about 750 pounds multi region

    I dont have a plasma yet...even if I do get one soon,I wont be getting the pioneer as its far too expensive...hence HDMI not a selling point to me.

    which of the two has better Picture quality, i am using a Toshiba rear projection TV..without progressive scan..but does have component inouts (which Im using at the moment)

    Do both sound the same in DVD, SACD and DVDA using i-link?

    I'm currently using a Toshiba 220e...will it be a big improvement over the Toshiba???

    i currently have an AX5....thanks
     
  2. gmt steve

    gmt steve
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    I couldn't tell the difference between them on my Panny PW5, but then again I couldn't see a difference when I went from a 747 to the 757.
    I would choose a Pioneer for it's reliability, it's i-Link (if you have the relevant amp) and non-fussiness about which discs it will and won't play. Their drawbacks are CUE (very bad CUE too), and inferior de-interlacing compared to Silicon Image or Faroudja solutions.
     
  3. Russ 66

    Russ 66
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    I got a 757 this week and cannot fault it at all. If you plan to run the player through a CRT / projection TV go for the 757 (both are overkill) and spend the rest of the cash on discs.
     
  4. gandley

    gandley
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    i would go the 868i route. its always better to be up to date if u can, the 868i is a little better than the 757 as it has a better mpeg decoder
     
  5. -Jay-

    -Jay-
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    Could you tell me what CUE is please mate?
    I was going to get either a Denon 2900 or the Pioneer 868 which is the best out of the two?
     
  6. gandley

    gandley
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    cue is chroma upsampling error. it can show itself up in horizontal/vertical banding most noticeable in reds.
    there are 3 different types of cue. it might look like interlaced has it as well but in fact this is ICP. which every player suffers from

    Faroudja chipsets feature a filter to get red of it, as does the iscan ultra.

    do an online search to find in deph explanations

    basicly on a small screen its not too bad unless the player has a serious issue. on a big screen its plain awful


    http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_2/dvd-benchmark-special-report-chroma-bug-4-2001.html
     
  7. -Jay-

    -Jay-
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    Cheers for that mate.
    I looked at the link that looks bloody awful :( On the link it says denon have sorted the problem is that true?

    If so i'll go with the 2900.
     
  8. gandley

    gandley
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    A review quote for the 2900..

    Denon has definitely produced an outstanding video section for this player, following in the footsteps of the very successful DVD-1600. However, the 2900 incorporates the MPEG decoder used by Pioneer for so long that was made by Mitsubishi. As our benchmark tests have shown, this decoder suffers from the chroma bug quite badly. Denon was well aware of this and approached Mitsubishi about it, demanding that the chip be fixed before implementation. Sure enough, the problem was addressed and the bug was eliminated, for the most part. Unfortunately the techs at Mitsubishi could not eliminate the problem for discs with alternating progressive flags. This is the same problem we saw with the Krell DVD Standard DVD Player. It causes some slight flickering in solid colors similar to Faroudja based players that have the CCS filter on. It also causes banding in video based material.

    Otherwise, the 2900 is quite a solid player, offering excellent color exhibition and a very film-like image. The 2900 is a descendant of the 2800 and uses the Silicon Image 504 deinterlacer which does a phenomenal job with film based material on DVD. It doesn’t quite match the Faroudja though with video material, so you may see some jaggies on occasion. For more about the video performance of this player, you can refer to our benchmark report published previously.(end quote)


    between these to players it depends where your heading with your equipment. HDMI is good for future proofing and the 868i does have i-link.

    if your not going to use those to features then i would go for the 2900. Maybe worth noting if your going to be using progressive mode as well.(as all dvd players feature ICP in interlaced mode)
     
  9. -Jay-

    -Jay-
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    I have a Z1 at the moment & was going to get the 868 for when i get a Sim2 with HDMI next year.
    I will be using P/scan with the Z1 cos i only have a tosh 220 at the moment :blush:
     
  10. gandley

    gandley
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    then if it was me id wait as there will be more HDMI players availble on the market next year,(as well as through this year)

    Rumour has it denon next batch of dvd players will feature HDMI

    good choice with the sim2. is that the dom20 or 30(both are excellent)

    actually you have made a realy good choice as the sim2 s feature the faroudja chipset that has the chroma filter.
    so cue wont be an issue for you
     
  11. Costas

    Costas
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    I have both the 757 and 868 and have tried on my plasma with component connection for direct comparison. They are both very good but definition is a little better with the 868. I actually bought the 868 fro the HDMI coonection.
     
  12. -Jay-

    -Jay-
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    Been looking into the dom20 people really seem to like it :)

    Thats really good to know mate thanks for your reply :smashin:
     
  13. gandley

    gandley
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    yes no probs, (even though you gave me a tuff time in the console forum the other day....:D )

    bear in mind though that the onboard faroudja solution of the sim2s only works when sent an interlaced signal, if u use HDMI it must be able to pass interlaced to take advantage of the chroma filter.(and im not sure if they do)
     
  14. -Jay-

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    Ah i forgot all about that mate :blush:
    Sorry about that i was only having a little fun with ya :smashin:
     
  15. gmt steve

    gmt steve
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    Where did you get that info regarding the decoder m8? I was under the assumption that most of the 757s internals are carried over into the 868, including the decoder, the VQ I-P chip and the TI firewire chip.
     
  16. gandley

    gandley
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    I was quoting kris Deerings of secrets. I cant remember if it was a decoder update, or that pioneer had switched provider, but one thing is for sure its not the same decoder as the 757(but granted it may be a step revision)

    the pioneers decoder is belived to be of higher quality than the A11
     
  17. gmt steve

    gmt steve
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    Really! Wow that is a suprise, especially from the Secrets crew, they have a low opinion of Pioneers. I didn't think they had tested the new Pioneer yet, could you point me in the direction of the info you mention please, I am always keen to know as much as poss about kit I own?
     
  18. gandley

    gandley
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    i think there in the process of reviewing the 868i well the USA version.

    God knows where it was i got this from kris, i think it was in one of the Denon 5900 threads. i wouldnt read to much into it though.
    the improvement is minimal with a slight reduction of cue and less rounding errors.
    As said an improvement over the 757.(this is based if what kris thought was true)
    Going to have to wait for full review to be sure.

    (i will say that the superior bit was said when it was believed the ESS mpeg decoder was causing the so called macroblocking on the denon A11. In the end this turned out to be the faroudja chipset which had been shipped with NR turned up full so causing enhancment errors)
     
  19. Kazman

    Kazman
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    On the Pioneer 668 I have not seen any evidence of CUE, and I've tested against the usual suspects (Monsters Inc, Finding Nemo, Moulin Rouge etc), saw a blatent example of it on a Finding Nemo Disc through an Arcam DVD player, and it is really noticable if you know what to look for.

    Don't think the Toshie 42WH36P filtered it out.

    The 868 would theoretically be even better at handling CUE with regard to its higher quality componentry would it not?
     
  20. gandley

    gandley
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    Not realy no and at the same time possibly, it would depend if the two use the same Mpeg decoder and de-interlacer.

    the mpeg decoder is where Cue i think is generated, hopefully like the faroudja chipset the on board deinterlacer has a chroma filter, this then makes up for the mpeg decoderes weakness.

    CUE is only visible with regards progressive signals.

    ICP looks the same but is a fault with the interlaced signal that all dvd players suffer from, it a broken link in the dvd format
     
  21. gmt steve

    gmt steve
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    I think you're mistaken on that point gandley. I see it very clearly on a Panny PW5 fed by an 868 via interlaced or progressive. If it wasn't a factor with interlaced signals then why would iScan put a filter for it on the Ultra? You aren't going to feed a progressive signal to the Ultra are you?
    The CUE is caused by badly written software in the MPEG decoder, which should apply a different algorithm for an interlaced output, compared to the algorithm for progressive output. When it uses the same, you get CUE. The 868 has it bad, as do the 668 and 757.

    I don't understand this, as the 668 and 868 share the same MPEG decoder.
     
  22. Timmy B

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    gandley, interlaced and p.scan suffer from the chroma bug (remember, it is stored as interlaced on the dvd) - its all down to the mpeg decoder not the deinterlacer.

    This is why people can see the chroma bug on SKY.
     
  23. gmt steve

    gmt steve
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    Actually this is the heart of the problem. Data is stored on the DVD as 4.2.0. component. To be displayed on consumer equipment the data is upsampled (therefore Chroma Upsampling Error) to 4.2.2. component.
    As I stated the algorithms for doing this Chroma Upsampling should be different for interlaced and progressive.
     
  24. gmt steve

    gmt steve
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    Ooops, sorry, my first double post. Don't you just love 56kbs dial up.:suicide:
     
  25. gandley

    gandley
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    Ok, just last time i posted here that CUE could be seen in interlaced mode i got a right royal rollicking by a few members.

    and told what i was seeing was ICP and not CUE.
    anyone got info on a link to confirm?
     
  26. ancientgeek

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    I'm not convinced Pio 668/868 suffer from CUE. Of course there remains the fact that there is only chroma info for alternate scan lines anyway, so chroma upsampling is by its nature a compromise.

    Personally, I find I'm better off trying not to think about CUE!
     
  27. Matt F

    Matt F
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  28. gmt steve

    gmt steve
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    I have to agree. Now I have read the linked article I think I owe you an apology gandley. I also need to do further veiwing of the 868's problems. If I understand the Secrets article correctly then I am indeed seeing ICP. My mistake was to use static screens to see the CUE problem, specifically the Snell and Wilcox 4.3 pattern and the menu screen, both from DVE. Since I use interlaced out, into an iScan Ultra, and these are static pictures, then it's ICP. But I also see it on progressive out of the 868.:confused:
    I need to view some moving picture material and try to understand what's going on. Christ this AV lark is complex.:zonked:
    Sorry gandley, please forgive a poor ignorant.:blush:
     
  29. gandley

    gandley
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    Well i think i can forgive.:D

    its best to be aware that ICP is a fault of all dvd players, and is seen in interlaced mode.

    If you see a similar problem in progressive then it is CUE,
    you would not see it with the iscan ultra as it has a Chroma filter onboard.(in the same way faroudja chipsets do)

    Some DVD players only Display CUE if they can not read the Prog flagging properly.(the issue with the 2900)
    And again many have jump to the conclusion that this dvd player has awful CUE when infact they are seeing ICP.

    My denon A11 has ICP, but zero cue.
    MY 9500e has ICP and a little CUE
    My sisters 2900 has ICP and CUE on some discs and some not
     
  30. gandley

    gandley
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    a great place to spot cue is in starwars episode 2, when jango and boba fete are chasing obi wan and they release those great big blue sizemic charges.

    the view inside the cockpit of jangos weird ship shows a great big round red light. It should be a smooth red, but if ICP is present it breaks up awful(interlaced), and the same or slightly lesser if you suffer CUE.(progressive)



    This AV lark realy does have a steap learning curve.
     

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