Pioneer 575 banding problem vs PS2 please help!!!

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by sambobo, May 20, 2005.

  1. sambobo

    sambobo
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    Hi, ive had a pioneer 575 for about 4 months now and have mixed feelings about its picture quality. based on its reviews i would expect it to give a pretty damn good performance, but i was watching panic room se last night and noticed lots of banding/blocking on the walls in most of the dark scenes. it was really bad at some points so i plugged my ps2 in (just through compasite) and while there was a **** load of noise in the picture i couldnt really notice any banding.

    do you think this is because:

    a. beacause there was so much noise from the ps2 the banding was less visable

    b. or that my pioneers faulty/crap and is producing a bad picture

    c. the pioneers really good and it is simply just showing all the faults with the dvd


    any ideas? ive got it plugged into my jvc 28p37 through component and its set to progscan mode, the dvd is r2 pal. if it is just the dvd thats crap then alot must be.

    thanks

    sam
     
  2. Crustyloafer

    Crustyloafer
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    Try turning prog scan off. A lot of CRTs that are supposed to be compatible with prog scan don't do a very good job when fed that type of signal and display lots of artifacts and banding as you have described. Another issue is that the Pioneer 575 is a very inexpensive and basic player and to expect to to have a top notch deinterlacer is asking too much at that price. As I said try it with prog scan off and see how you get on, alternatively try borrowing a higher end prog scan player from your dealer, something like the Denon DVD-3910 or the Arcam DV78 and see if it makes any difference, this might help identifiy what the culprit is, the TV or the DVD player. Oh and do make sure you are using good quality cables. A good component lead should cost around half the price of the Pioneer 575 layer if not more.
     
  3. bonzobanana

    bonzobanana
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    Those JVC don't have super high res CRTs and generally you feed them a progressive signal you end up with it down scaling the image. Some high res tubes seem to be based on a maximum pixel display of about 720x480 so ok for ntsc progressive material but pal progressive gets downscaled and this can create picture issues. Your television is also only a 28" and may have even less available displayable pixels. Not only that but many CRT progressive sets give a very flickery image with progressive because they have a low refresh rate on progressive images. Personally I'm of the opinion that a good quality 50hz set is better for image quality most of the time and these progressive sets only become useful at about 36" CRT size where 50hz becomes unacceptably flickery. A 28" progressive set like the JVC is probably won't match a good 50hz 28" set which has a straight through RGB scart connection and good quality tube. The thing is tvs that do heavy processing of images often get caught out at times like the banding plus many other issues.

    I have a 100hz 28" Thomson myself. I only got it as it was super cheap and its packed with features and has amazing sound but if you compare it to the Thomson 50hz model based on the same tube with a RGB scart connection the 50hz is noticably better in detail and has cleaner more accurate colour. Mine has the advantage of being flicker free but actual image quality is inferior. Not by much but hardly worth paying more for normally. The thing is my set is video capturing every field to then process at a 2x display rate. The video capturing side that every 100hz or progressive set does introduces a degradation in picture detail and this can't be helped.
     
  4. Piya

    Piya
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    I believe the JVC 28p37 has a HD compatible CRT tube, capable of diaplaying max resolution of 1125i.

    I myself have a 32p37, and using it with my Radeon-based HTPC to display 960x540p or 1920x1080i at 60Hz and 30Hz respectively without a problem. So it should have more viewable pixels than other non-HD compatible sets.

    Also, What Video and Widescreen TV issue January 2004 gave 'nothing short of stunning using the component inputs and a PAL progressive feed .....Fine detail levels are sensational, motion stunningly smooth, image depth prodigious, and contrast and black levels impressive....In fact....the 32P37SJE could well be the best DVD deliverer we've seen.....'. See this thread about the JVC 32p37 http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95501&page=1&pp=15&highlight=jvc.

    I believe the 28p37 is based on the same design and should have similar picture quality.

    Have you tried with other dvds?

    Regards
    Piya
     
  5. bonzobanana

    bonzobanana
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    What a CRT, LCD or Plasma can handle with regards resolution and refresh rate and what the actual resolution of the display is are not directly related. Many Plasma's are just 858x480 in resolution but can handle all sorts of resolutions beyond that and simply down scale the image. My AE100 projector also has a lowish resolution of 858x484 but can still handle resolutions like 1080i. While the JVC set can handle HD I very much doubt it has the resolution to display it fully. It seems JVC aren't too free with information about the tube. Is there any information on the dot pitch of these sets?

    Anyone willing to count the dots on their set to find out the resolution? It takes a pin sharp eye and don't forget in one direction you are counting groups of 3 pixels only. I.e. the three red, green, blue elements count as one pixel not three. If you can't make out the three colour elements at all even with your eye right up close to the screen I think we can assume it is a high definition tube. You'll need to have the set displaying a white image or at least bright image.
     
  6. probedb

    probedb
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    I havea jvc 28d40 and a pioneer dv470 which is a newer tv and the model down from you dvd player wise. I thought it looked much better with prog scan turned off. The JVC converts everything to 75Hz and has it's own modes for that sort of thing.

    Goes against the reviews but I got other artifacts with it turned on.
     
  7. Piya

    Piya
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    bonzobanana

    Although I'm not an expert on CRT pixel counts, I believe I can tell the difference when I set my HTPC to output different resolutions such as 850x480p and 1920x1080i. The Windows desktop shows different icon sizes with different resolutions. So I believe the JVC does not downscale the high resolution but rather display the correct resolution my HTPC outputs to it.

    Anyway, I'm happy with my JVC picture quality @1920x1080i.

    Cheers

    Piya
     
  8. bonzobanana

    bonzobanana
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    A quick and rough test to see how high resolution the tube is, is to see if the icons are sharp and clean at 1920x1080i. If they have clean solid lines and are sharply focussed then its true high resolution. However if they look softly focussed and lines look jagged then its not. I don't know what resolution the tube is but it would be very impressive indeed if it was truly 1920x1080i. As you go down in resolutions you should find resolutions below its native tube resolution are sharp and above it they lose focus/detail somewhat. So you can also gauge it that way. For example my projector does PC resolutions of 640x480 and 860x480 exceptionally well, does 800x600 very well indeed but 1024x768 is noticably softer with less sharp edges as the scaling blends outs some of the detail.

    Also some dvd players have less picture enhancing in progressive mode than interlace mode. This is always worth bearing in mind and interlace is definitely capable of giving better results. The reason this happens is a dvd player has to process twice as much data to create a progressive image. Instead of having to create 50 fields a second it has to create a full 50 frames instead with progressive. This could mean certain picture enhancing features are only available in interlace mode.
     
  9. sambobo

    sambobo
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    thanks guys, ill give it a try with progscan off. as for tv res i thought all pal widescreen non hi def tvs were 1024x576, beacuse thats the size of a anamorphic dvd picture when its streched correctly.

    anway, i'll give it a try and report back.

    thanks
     
  10. Piya

    Piya
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    bonzobanana

    Thanks for a tip to check whether the tube is truely 1920x1080i. Happily, all my workable resolutions - 856x480p, 960x540p, and of course 1920x1080i produce sharp and clean Windows destop icons albeit at different sizes :) .

    Regards
    Piya
     
  11. bonzobanana

    bonzobanana
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    1920x1080i shouldn't be that clean as its an interlace mode. Effectively either 1920x540 or 960x540 in real terms. Interlace modes by their very nature should look less stable and softer as they are non progressive.
     
  12. gamerfreak2002

    gamerfreak2002
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    The JVC HV-32D40 has a native resolution of 2200 pixels by 900 lines. I believe the 32p37 to feature the same tube. Whether this applies to the 28" models as well, I cannot say.
     
  13. sambobo

    sambobo
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    i tried it in interlaced mode and it still looked just as bad. do any of you notice blockiness and banding when watching any dvds? i know the mpeg2 formats not perfect but i cant understand why the picture would be so bad from my pioneer 575 and jvc28p37, when both got 5/5 ratings from several sources.

    any thoughts?
     
  14. rickardl

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    What is you setting of BNR of the DV-575?
    Also, try with installing a modified firmware which allows 'Darker-than-black'
    display and turn it on. (sets Black Level to 0 IRE instead of 7.5 IRE).
     
  15. sambobo

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    right, well i got round to checking panic room on my pc and it looked rather like the ps2 picture, rather grainy/noisy but very little banding. so i can only asume that because the pioneer produces zero noise in its picture that banding becomes alot more apparent, either that or its just ****.

    has anyon elso noticed any banding, esp in large areas of colour with their 575s??
     
  16. Gary D

    Gary D
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    Mines lovely and has been for the last 6 months :D i'm watching it on 42 Panasonic Veria and believe me when i say that every little picture defect is shown up on it.

    Gary
     
  17. Geesus

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    I've since realised that my 575 was showing banding, particularly on white backgrounds, since upgrading to an 868 which has none...didn't realise it was the player before...
     
  18. sambobo

    sambobo
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    if the 575 has banding probles why did it get such great reviews?
     
  19. rickardl

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    As far as I have seen/read/heard, there is no general banding problem with
    the DV-575A.
     
  20. sambobo

    sambobo
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    well i watched the new cg appleseed anime yesterday and there was some sereous banding goin on. i find it hard to belive that just mine has a defect and that it would look like this, surly it must be a problem with all 575s?
     
  21. rickardl

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    Well, maybe it is a global conspiracy to keep quiet about the big banding
    problem...? ;)

    I would rather think that
    a) it is a defect unit
    b) there is some incompatibility between the player, cables and/or the display
    c) what you are seeing is not commonly recognized as banding.
    can you produce any snapshots on how it looks?
     
  22. sambobo

    sambobo
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    turning off DNR got rid of alot of the banding but added alot of noise (obveously). to be honest i cant tell that much difference between the 575 and my ps2, the 575 is better but not as much as i would of thought.
     

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