Pioneer 5090, crushed black issue

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs Forum' started by Chelsea_Fan, Jun 12, 2009.

  1. Chelsea_Fan

    Chelsea_Fan
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    Hi
    Does anyone know if the 5090 has extra gamma adjustments in the (ISF) calibration menu?

    I've always been bugged by the crushed blacks on my 5090 and I made up a fine greyscale image to test it.

    Now I first did this a few weeks ago and loaded the image via USB and the gallery menu. I got a good result and the 5090 could differentiate between the black and nearly black bars.

    It also clearly showed no crushing at the top end either.
    So this left me confused...

    So now I have loaded the same test images onto CDROM and played them via HDMI. I now see the crushing of blacks that I see on normal TV, either Freeview or Blu Ray.

    It doesn't seem to matter how I adjust the contrast or brightness (or 3 gamma options)... the blacks are crushed. In fact the last three bars all look the same deep black.
    The top two or three bars also crush towards white.

    This is a very disappointing result, although I guess this gives a punchy picture and probably sells more TVs for Pioneer as it will give an illusion of wide contrast 'more often'.

    So I'm left hoping there is more adjustment within the TV. All I want is the same response I get on Gallery mode. That looks OK.

    In comparison, my cheapo Dell LCD monitor reads the same files and can clearly show all the bars with no crushing.

    (Note that the test pattern uses very fine changes in level between bars so the first three bars are very close to black, unlike the classic greyscale test patterns that are less strict)
     
  2. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    Where have you got you're brightness set to??

    You need it on +1 or maybe +2.



    I don't think the 5090 has the gamma points?

    I have around 2.2 gamma at 10ire and then 2.5 to the top.
     
  3. eiren

    eiren
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    Make sure you have the HDMI inputs set to the correct PC/Video level.
     
  4. Chelsea_Fan

    Chelsea_Fan
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    HDMI inputs are set to video.

    Playing with brightness doesn't help. All three 'blacK' bars lift together.

    Playing with contrast doesn't help either.

    There is a big difference between Gallery mode (USB images) and images loaded via HDMI in the various TV modes.

    I've tried/tweaked all of the TV modes, even the silly ones like GAME and SPORT.

    I don't think my TV is faulty, I reckon they will all show this problem. A regular greyscale chart is OK because it has relatively big steps in brightness between the bars.

    IMO Pioneer have deliberately distorted the extreme ends of the contrast range to give a punchier TV image in the TV modes (and possibly mask any posterisation issues).

    On photos via GALLERY/USB it is fine. I can see all the bars.

    So my question remains... is there access to more gamma adjustment somewhere in a service/ISF mode?
     
  5. ~dadam02~

    ~dadam02~
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    If your usb test pattern is showing the correct shades of black then this indicates it is possible. I was under the impression there is a 10 point adjustable gamma scale in the isf menu, interested as to the outcome of this thread.

    Good luck
     
  6. eiren

    eiren
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    Bear in mind that if you have HDMI levels set to video, and you are using a test image, anything that is Black Than Black (i.e. below 16) should be invisible in terms of difference, and should blend together.

    You should only see differences above the level of 16.

    Once you've established you have got this all correct... then with Pioneer televisions there is a small amount of black crush with Pure settings.

    On mine I have used ControlCal to change the gamma on mine so that anything below 30IRE is at 2.1-2.2 gamma. Anything above 30IRE I have set so that it's at a 2.5 gamma.

    Gives better shadow detail, and a punchier picture overall.
     
  7. Chelsea_Fan

    Chelsea_Fan
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    Thanks.

    I suppose the other possible explanation is that the external source is distorting the greyscale via HDMI but I would have thought that this was unlikely.

    I'm using a Panasonic BD35 to play the images. It does have a few options for contrast enhancement etc but none of them seem to cure this issue.

    I hope the 10 point adjustment is enough as the bars I'm testing are 8 bit (0-255) and each bar is spaced at increments of 8.

    The TV can tell the 0,8,16 (black) bars apart no problem in USB/Gallery but they blob together in the TV modes.

    So the problem is in the bottom 1/16th of the 8 bit range.
     
  8. eiren

    eiren
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    There's your answer. You are seeing things as they should be.

    When set to video levels, anything below 16 should all blend together. That is correct for video levels.
     
  9. choddo2006

    choddo2006
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    Yep. Unless the source does any translation from 0-255 into 16-235 (253? I can never remember)
     
  10. Chelsea_Fan

    Chelsea_Fan
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    Are you using the same figures as me? i.e. everything below 16 (0-255) should look the same?


    Thanks.
    Edit:
    Just read up on this here

    http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/calibrate-your-system/hdmi-black-levels-xvycc-rgb
    I'll try making a test pattern that starts at 16 and goes in small steps from 16 to see if the TV looks the same in Gallery and TV modes.

    Then I've got to try and get it to show a good greyscale (looks a bit green on the lower bars which is the other reason for making up the test patterns)
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2009
  11. Simon-2k

    Simon-2k
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    Are you running the HDMI signals through an AV reciever?
     
  12. g10rg0s

    g10rg0s
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    You can download AVSHD 709 that has plenty of calibration patterns:

    AVS HD 709 - Blu-ray, HD DVD, & MP4 Calibration - AVS Forum

    The avchd version will be fine with BD35.
     
  13. kwangomango

    kwangomango
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    The main brightness pattern of AVCHD relies on blacker than black information being sent by your source. Neither my Pioneer Bluray or Popcorn Hour do this for the way i have set them up.
    Just use the 'Near Black' test section on the disc. If you can just about see the 1% IRE window then your brightness/black level is set fine with no crushing.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2009

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