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Pioneer 434 resolution correlation to 868 player HD input

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by Costas, Jan 1, 2004.

  1. Costas

    Costas
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    Using HDMI to HDMI I have the following two queries:

    1. If I set the Pio 868 player at 720 x 480P/576P (NTSC/PAL)
    the plasma displays 625p. If I set it at 1280 x 720P the plasma
    displays 750P. Can you explain this correlation please?

    2. The 434's native resolution is 1024 x 768, so I assume that by
    setting the DVD player at 1280 x 720p the 1280 bit will be
    downscaled by the the plasma. Still, I expect setting the player
    at 1280 x 720p is better than setting it at 720 x 480P/576P
    (I do appreciate that for some non-anamorphic DVDs, you need
    to change the resolution to allow selection of the correct
    aspect ratio). It is just that the 1280 x 720p set does not look
    very different than the 720 x 480/576P setting and on some
    dics using the higher setting the colour setting is very slightly
    changing.
     
  2. joys_R_us

    joys_R_us
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    HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYBODY ! .:hiya:

    625 is the same as 576 (the difference being some lines not displayed counted vs. not included in the number). So when you set your 868 to 576p the plasma will show 625p which is exactly the same thing only expressed otherwise. I think the same is true with 720 vs. 750 (no difference)

    Re. Upscaling in the DVD player to 720 and then further scaling in plasma to 768 I already expressed my theoretical opinion that this shouldn't do good to picture quality due to double scaling. Still look forward to hands on comments.
     
  3. Brogan

    Brogan
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    I would be interested in comments on this as it has been puzzling me too...
    I have the 504 panel which has a resolution of 1280x768.
    Likewise when I configure the 868 to output 1280x720p the plasma shows HDMI 750p.
    Where does the 750 come from? :confused:

    I was also chatting to the local Hi-Fi shop mid-week and they implied they get a better picture via HDMI if they configure the 868 to output 1920x1080i to the 504. I haven't tested this but I would be very surprised if this is the case...anyone tried it?
     
  4. Dutch

    Dutch
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    Brogan,

    As joys_R_us said, 750p is the same as 720p but including non-visible picture lines. As for whether outputting a 1080i signal is better than 720p, why don't you just give it a try?:)

    Steve
     
  5. Costas

    Costas
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    Guys happy new year to all from me too!

    Joys_R_us, thanks for the good points. I will be testing things further over the next couple of days. Regarding your point on the double scaling, is it not the same when you set the player at 480/576P? I mean the plasma scales up again to the 625p (or perhaps I am wrong here)

    Brogan thanks, I tried only progressive modes so far assuming that this will be better. Interesting, I will look into interlace too.

    Has anyone tried when in progressive NTSC DVD set up to switch also on the Purecinema ADV on the plasma? Any comments? I thought this would be wrong thing to do but when I had component connection it looked to make it even better.
     
  6. Brogan

    Brogan
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    Steve, I saw Joys post but TBH, I didn't understand what he was saying :blush:
    After all, if the lines are "non visible" then why bother having them?
    All this interlaced, progressive, scaling, etc. is way over my head as it's something I've never really been interested in before...if interested is the right word...;)

    I've tried the 1280p versus 1920i comparison but, as anyone who's read my other posts will know by now, I have a hard time telling the difference between any and all video and audio signals so I'll leave the testing to others who are capable.

    I'm more of a wine tester myself...;) :D

    Paul

    P.S. If anyone around/near Chelmsford wants to come and have a play with settings, etc., feel free...
     
  7. Costas

    Costas
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    Ok, I have done some further tests last nights using various discs and formats (R1,R2,R3,R4 anamorphic / non-anamorphic etc).

    I felt that all interlace modes produce a picture slightly inferior to the progressive mode resolutions. Then in selecting a progressive HD resolution for the 868 / 434 HDMI combination I went for the 720 x 480p/576p (NTSC/PAL) setting. The 1280 x 720p setting is definitely not as good showing a slightly less well defined image with slight drop on contrast/colour and focus. This may be different if you use a 504 screen. All the tests I have done so far have been performed with the Video left at DIRECT mode on the 868. Had also 5 other people in the room giving the same opinion.
     
  8. Brogan

    Brogan
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    Thanks for the feedback Costas.
    So in your opinion, it's better to feed the 434 with a signal that has to be scaled up rather than down?

    I suppose I'd better do some testing on mine to see which is best but I really have a hard time spotting any differences/improvements.
    The fact that you have to stop playback, go into the menu, change the settings, etc. doesn't help as by the time you've done all that, it's difficult to remember exactly what the image was like initially...

    P.S. Have you seen this thread? http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=109749
     
  9. Costas

    Costas
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    Brogan,

    Thanks for reminding me of that thread. Yes I recall it now but had not followed up the recent inputs. Very interesting to see what Pioneer says on that.

    From my tests so far, I feel that indeed the picture is better when the 434 is fed with a signal that has to be scaled up. I also agree that is it a hard test to make by stopping to change the setting and then playing again the same parts on a numbers of DVDs ... we spent 2.5 hours last night believe it or not!
     
  10. Arshad

    Arshad
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    I use the momitsu v880 with my 434 and the best picture i get is at 720p. 1080i looks soft and 480p also doesn't look as good as 720p. I also tried my older dvd player and tried both interlace and progressive but they also don't look as good as 720p on momitsu. The picture looks even better when i on the Purecinema ADV but the picture flickers like mad so i usually keep it off. It doesn't flicker on the 480i, 480p, and 1080i though.
     
  11. StooMonster

    StooMonster
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    RE: Point 2
    If you get your player to output 720p (1280x720 pixels), the player will have already upscaled scaled the image up from DVD once (720x480/576). Then the screen will downscale horizontal and upscale vertical pixels to match its native resolution; however, Pioneer plasmas tend to have a large overscan set as default therefore a good amount of the picture information will be cropped from 1280x720 before it is scaled to 1024x768.

    Therefore the screen will be displaying most of the DVD's vertical information (minus overscan), but horizontally it could equally be displaying either the DVD information or the interpolated data from the player's upscale.

    You can really see this in action when setting player to output 1080i (1920x1080 pixels). The screen will downscale both the horizontal and vertical pixels to match it's native resolution. However, it is much more likely to be displaying interpolated data rather than DVD data when downscaled -- hence the softer picture.

    It is generally accepted that the fewer the processing steps the better, and one scale operation should be better than two.

    For example:

    720x480/576 to 1024x768 the screen upscales both horizontal and vertical, the player does no scaling. (One scale operation.)

    1280x720 to 1024x768 the screen upscales vertical and downscales horizontal thereby throwing away real DVD data in that dimension. (Two scale operations.)

    1920x1080 to 1024x768 the screen downscales both horizontal and vertical resolutions thereby throwing away real DVD data in both dimensions. (Two scale operations.)


    Logically the player outputting 720x480/576 should provide the best picture quality, there is only one scale operation and what's displayed is all DVD data (plus some interpolation) not interpolated data (plus some DVD data).

    HTH

    StooMonster
     
  12. Costas

    Costas
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    StooMonster
    Thank you very much for the good input / expalnation. Glad to also see it matches my observations.
     
  13. Brogan

    Brogan
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    Nice summary StooMonster... well it would be if I understood a word of it...;)

    I guess the situation is different for the 504 panel which has a native resolution of 1280 x 768?

    720x480/576 to 1280x768 the screen upscales both horizontal and vertical, the player does no scaling. (One scale operation.)

    1280x720 to 1280x768 the screen upscales vertical, the player upscales vertical and horizontal. (Two scale operations.)

    1920x1080 to 1280x768 the screen downscales both horizontal and vertical resolutions thereby throwing away real DVD data in both dimensions, the player upscales vertical and horizontal. (Two scale operations.)

    Thereby giving 504 owners 2 "one scale" options or will the player do scaling for the 1280x720 and 1920x1080 outputs?

    Edit: Just re-read your post and realised that "native" output from a DVD is 720x480/576 which means that anything other than that has already been scaled by the DVD player. So in actual fact only the 720x480 output will be a "one scale" operation being performed by the panel and everything else will be 2 - 1 each in the player and panel.
     
  14. Brogan

    Brogan
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    So in summary, the attached table should show the scaling operations that take place for each output signal from an 868 to a 504.
    Can anyone (StooMonster?) confirm this is correct?

    One can therefore surmise that the best output will always be 720x480 as this is the only one which has 1 stage of scaling on both the vertical and horizontal (performed by the panel)?
    Although I guess it depends quite how good the scalers are relative to each other in each piece of equipment...
     

    Attached Files:

  15. Ultra2man

    Ultra2man
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    Hi Brogan.
    I live in Maldon and have the 504 & 868 (recieved it on Tuesday )
    I've been playing with the minefield of settings on both devices but like yourself am still unsure whats the best setting to use.
    I have an old copy of DVE and have set the basic settings using this.
    If you want to borrow it then let me know.

    Mike.
     
  16. Brogan

    Brogan
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    Mike,

    The sheer number of settings is quite daunting at first I agree.
    I've had my kit for quite a while now and only played with brightness, contrast, colour and sharpness.
    The rest I've left as I just don't have the time to play around tweaking, checking, tweaking, etc. (plus I probably wouldn't be able to notice any improvements anyway...).

    Thanks for the offer of DVE - I'll take you up on that :smashin:
    If it turns out to be useful I'll probably pick up a new copy as I've found that you need to re-visit your settings as you put more hours on the panel.
    Have you got the coloured glasses with your disc?

    I'll drop you a PM.

    Cheers, Paul
     
  17. joys_R_us

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    I do not know exactly why they are there but this is what the TV-standard gives us. When you play around with the vertical synch button on the back of the older TV sets you can let the image scroll up and down and then you can see the black horizontal bars between the frames.

    You know what I mean ?

    In PAL the DVD player outputs a signal with 625i lines of which 576i are displayed. So in this case no scaling is done by the DVDplayer.
     
  18. Brogan

    Brogan
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    Ok, this is weird...
    Just done a quick comparison between the various outputs from the 868.
    With VGA640x480, 720x576 and 1280x720 I am able to select FULL, WIDE, CINEMA etc, on the plasma.
    With 1280x720 and 1920x1080 the screen is fixed at FULL and I can't change it.
    Can someone explain why this is? Is it because the DVD player is scaling up initially?
     
  19. Costas

    Costas
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    Brogan,
    This is not weird and I have already touched on this point on my review earlier up this thread. Have a look at page 72 of the 868 manual and my earlier posts. I think you will understand.
     
  20. Brogan

    Brogan
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    Ah, OK must have missed that part of your post Costas.

    As for page 72 of the manual, that table makes no sense to me at all.
    I just don't understand what it attempts to convey...:confused:
     
  21. StooMonster

    StooMonster
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    Looks right to me.

    One scale is best, two upscales is okay, but an upscale and then a downscale will most likely display interpolated image rather than the data that is on the DVD (hence softer).

    Highly recommend Digital Video Essentials (PAL and NTSC editions) to set Brightness, Contrast, Sharpness etc; but you will need an ISF Calibrator to set greyscale correctly. All these settings should really be done after the first couple of hundred hours viewing, because they will change then stay stable for the next few thousand hours.

    StooMonster
     
  22. Brogan

    Brogan
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    Thanks for the confirmation.

    I see Splash are doing the new DVE for £11 (with the £2 off voucher) so it's probably worth er...splashing out on it...
     
  23. StooMonster

    StooMonster
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    Of the non-visible lines PAL's 625 vs 576 visible and NTSC's 525 vs 480 visible they are historically used for vertical blanking (returning CRT guns to top left), control and sync information, analogue teletext, WSS (widescreen signaling) is on line 13, etc. so lots of non-picture information.

    StooMonster
     
  24. suzywong

    suzywong
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    Another oddity (or more likely I'm just thick!)....

    Like Brogan I've been playing around with the 868/HDMI/504 settings.

    when I set the 868 to 1280x720p (and the plasma shows HDMI 750p), i could not change the picture on the 504 (with the little green button two thirds the way up the right hand side of the 504 remote).

    when I set the 868 to 720 x 480P/576P then I can use the little green button.

    Why should this happen?


    Ah, i've just found that Brogan has asked the same question further down the thread (OK so I'm thick!!!!)
     
  25. togad

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    Nice kit you have there!
    My lot:
    Pioneer 868, 504
    Meridian 500, 518, 565, 562v3, 4*DSP5000, DSP5000C
     
  26. StooMonster

    StooMonster
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    Question: does the Pioneer player resolution upscale also increase the bit-depth to 30-bit (sometime called ten bit) or 1 billion colours?

    The screen does, it's how it makes 1 billion colours from DVD that is 24-bit (sometimes called eight bit) or 17 million colours. *All MPEG2 decoders are 24-bit only, e.g. Sky digital.

    Therefore if one does all the scaling in the player, the end display may only be 17 million colours; whereas if one feeds the screen 720x480/576 in 17 million colours it will scale the images to 1024/1280x768 in 1 billion colours.

    StooMonster
     
  27. joys_R_us

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    There is no way for a plasma screen to display 1 billion colours... all marketing s h i t...
     
  28. StooMonster

    StooMonster
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    Obvious not simultaneously, you would need a billion pixels to display, but from a palette of one billion is easy.

    10-bit (1024 shades) of red, green and blue. With simple maths 1024 x 1024 x 1024 is approximately 1,000,000,000 (one billion) colours.

    Also means 1024 shades of grey are displayable too.

    Not only plasmas, but scalers and projectors and even the latest PC graphics cards in DirectX9 work at this bit-depth (30-bit); as well as television production.

    If I am wrong, how many colours can a plasma screen display joys_R_us? ;)

    StooMonster
     
  29. suzywong

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    Likewise!

    all older kit, but with all the bottom falling out of the 500 series market....I think i need to speak very nicely to the "Controller of the Privy Purse"!

    Do you run the video through the 562? I used to with my old TV but now I use the 504's Media Box.

    The Linn system is not connected to the AV (it just shares space in the living room) but the sound is far superior to the Meridian system, which is designed for "slam & big bangs" in the movies.
     
  30. joys_R_us

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    This is internal electronics (!) and not the plasma glass which is quite limited in the range they can display. My Pio 434 which I like very much can (from time to time in certain scenes) show banding in scenes like a sunset. If it could show 1 billion colours we wouldn't see banding.

    How many colours ? I am not sure. As far as I know the plasmas work with 8 subfields which would theoretically produce 256*256*256= 16 million colours. I am not sure if they really manage to display even that number of colours.
     

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