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Pioneer 2hr 20min Full Resolution Limit ?

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by Donos, Dec 30, 2004.

  1. Donos

    Donos
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    In a previous thread, Rasczak gave a very useful description on the time limits for full resolution recording (which depends on the quality of a DVD recorder's MPEG encoder) :-

    I was hoping to get 3 hour recording on a Pioneer unit, to allow 2 x Hi8 (90min) tapes to be recorded at full quality onto a single DVD.

    I wonder does anyone know if the upcoming Pioneer 920 has the same 2hr 20min restriction for full resolution recording (as on the 720) ?
     
  2. JamesL

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    Pioneer 920 uses exactly the same MPEG encoder as the rest of the 20 series. There is a review of the machine in the current What Video if your interested in it. We'll almost certainly see an improvement in Pioneer's MPEG encoders in next year's range.
     
  3. Donos

    Donos
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    Thanks JamesL.

    Any ideas on when next year's range will hit the streets ?
    (If it is within 6 months, I'd probably wait)
     
  4. PhilipL

    PhilipL
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    Hi

    Three hour encoding at full DVD resolution isn't going to be pretty, as bit starvation means lots of blocking, it will be even worse on camcorder material that generally is hand held and so shaky, and additionally has lots of extra resolution to encode as it is Hi8 and analogue noise to deal with.

    Full resolution will only be seen on static images where the encoder has opportunity to encode all the detail, and this isn't the norm with video, so while it will be 720x576, this doesn't mean you are seeing the maximum resolution that 720x576 offers at higher bit rates, instead it will be highly variable depending on the scene and noticeable to watch.

    Halving the DVD resolution allows the encoder more bits for encoding movement and complicated scenes and may prove more pleasing to watch with more constant picture quality, rather than suddenly seeing lots of artefacts suddenly appear the moment the scene becomes complicated or movement starts.

    For archiving home movie footage that is valuable to you and considering the cost of blank DVD-Rs, you are really better using 2 or even 3 discs. You will appreciate it more when in the future you sit with the family and watch it again on your very large plasma or LCD TV.

    Indeed it does, the x20 series uses a "system-on-a-chip". There is one huge chip the size of a Pentium processor sat pressed against a heatsink that then connects to the chassis. There is no maker name appart from "TS" (for Tru-surround) and the Tru-surround sound logo, and a chip number of M65673WG, nothing on the Net about this chip or who it makes it.

    Regards

    Philip
     
  5. johnjackthom

    johnjackthom
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    The mpeg encoders in Panasonic DVDRs really are extremely good. However, just because you can squeeze up to 3 hours onto a disc in full resolution doesn't make it a good idea.
    Even if such a thing as the Perfect MPEG2 Encoder were to be manufactured, I'm guessing that the fundamental limitations of the format would leave us only slightly better off than we are at present.

    I'd be inclined to settle for around 2 hours of material per DVD, but everyone has their own idea of what's acceptable in terms of picture quality. :)
     
  6. JamesL

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    Yes indeed. I try to put no more than 90mins per DVD-R (although it obviously depends upon the programme. Anymore though and I divide it across two DVD-RAMs and combine it on my PC and author to a DVD+R DL.
     
  7. Donos

    Donos
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    Thanks everyone for valuable input.

    You are right :- I want good quality recording of my Hi8 camcorder footage (typical family occasions). Based on your input, it sounds like 1 DVD-R per 80-min Hi8 tape is the way to go. As such, I will get one of the current generation units next week.

    Thanks again.
     
  8. eddyad

    eddyad
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    The Pioneers have 32 recording modes spaced over 1 - 6 hours (MN32 to MN1), so you can use the mode which best fits your time requirement. In your case 80 mins could use MN27 at 85 minutes per DVD.
    If you download the manual there is a table on page 130. It shows points at which there are ''noticeable" changes in recording quality e.g. between 140 and 150 mins in Video mode. It is not clear if there are incremental differences step by step.
    The manual is at http://www.pioneer.co.uk/uk/support_manuals.jsp?category=support/manuals
    Enter the database and enter the 'short' model number - 920.
    I don't know why there are two English versions - they look the same.
     
  9. PhilipL

    PhilipL
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    HI

    These marked areas are where the resolution changes.

    Regards

    Philip
     
  10. laser

    laser
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    I've managed to get 2h 29m 31s at full resolution MPEG2 from my DVR-220S using the auto setting but the picture does show some blocking on fast moving footage and camera pans.

    I've found 2h to 2h 10m to provide the best compromise between length and picture quality.
     
  11. eddyad

    eddyad
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    I managed 2h 23m on a Maxell DVD-R at full resolution in a Pioneer 420.
    I had recorded to HDD using MN19, the last one before the drop to 'LP' settings, and trimmed the HDD recording to 2h 23m - the best I could do easily (if really necessary I could have removed another couple of minutes or so).
    Copying to a DVD selected High Speed OK and the key thing seemed to be that the HDD bitstream was smaller than the DVD capacity.

    Question: does the PQ change incrementally on each MN change within a quality 'band' e.g. the MN19 - 31 range? If not, achieving 'best fit' for, say, 80 mins, isn't worth doing.
     
  12. PhilipL

    PhilipL
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    Hi

    The resolution doesn't change for each notch as the DVD Video specification only supports a few. What happens on each notch is the average bitrate is reduced increasing the likely hood of artefacts on fast or complicated scenes.

    Regards

    Philip
     
  13. eddyad

    eddyad
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    Thanks - I've wondered about this since I got the thing. So there is a potential perception improvement in the overall 'viewing experience' as the MN number increases.
     

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