Pioneer 2011 review

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by Daneel, Apr 3, 2003.

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  1. Daneel

    Daneel
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    Test system:

    Pioneer VSX-D2011 (45tx) receiver
    B&W DM 602s3 fronts
    B&W DM 601s3 rears
    B&W LCR60 s3 centre
    Velodyne CHT-10 sub
    Toshiba 520E DVD-V/DVD-A/CD
    Wharfedale 750S DVD/CD

    Introduction

    I used a Marantz SR7300 for a month with my system when I first built it so that will be the basis for most comparisons. I sent it back due to the high pitched which problem that has been mentioned by several people. While waiting for my Pioneer to arrive I used a Sherwood Newcastle r-925 that I borrowed from a friend. It must be about 6/7 years old with few features and poor noise floor. It is not in the same league as the Pioneer or Marantz. I was not able to AB any of the receivers so my comparisons must be taken with a pinch of salt.

    Build

    This thing is very well built. WHF got the big and bold looks thing right, that’s for sure. I think it is more stylish than other receivers in its class (3803, 555ES, SR7300). You will need a lot of space for it though and a fairly solid stand, net weight is 19.6 kg.

    Set-up

    This is easy to get most of the way there, but for perfection quite some tweaking is needed. The auto set-up routine does a very nice job but the instructions are either wrong or misleading. They seem to say after it has done the calibration I can change the speaker sizes if I think it got them wrong and it will redo the acoustic equalisation. I don’t seem to have this option, just check the settings it has selected or exit.

    I messed around with large speakers, the plus setting for sub and a couple of crossover frequencies. Most of them gave a far from seamless transition from sub to front for bas frequencies. In the end I settled on 80Hz crossover and small for all speakers. This does give a smooth handover between the sub and other speakers. Of course YMMV.

    Processing

    This receiver supports every mode under the sun. I’ve even found some of the DSP settings useful. Drama for example is good for watching dialogue heavy TV shows like ER or the West Wing. DPL2 and DTS Neo 6 are often good but occasionally output strange sounds from the rear speakers. My SR7300 did exactly the same thing so I doubt it has anything to do with the receiver. I assume they are both having a hard time filtering out vocal sounds and so the results are not quite perfect.

    There is very little delay locking on to a digital signal, it is faster than my SR7300, although I did notice a very small amount of static on occasion when skipping tracks on my Wharfedale 750S DVD/CD player. This only happens when using a digital connection. There is no such problem when using the analogue outputs of my Toshiba 520E (4800 in the US) or the optical output.

    Sound Quality

    I am impressed. Switching between direct mode and stereo on a music CD gives a big difference. I tested this using large fronts so that I wasn’t getting sub output on one and not on the other BTW. My speakers are terribly placed. My front right speaker is far too close to the wall and my rears are just a mess.

    I used to notice that dialogue coming through the centre speaker did not sound natural, far too much bass in the voice. Also the mid to high bass range was a bit on the boomy side. I’m fairly sure this is due to speaker placement as I mentioned.

    With MCACC turned on though this all goes away. Movie sound is excellent, even at low volumes dialogue is perfectly clear. DRC is available and I recommend people try it unless they listen at or near reference level. Positioning of sounds is also good. I can’t really fault the movie performance at all. I’m not sure it is a massive improvement over the SR7300 as I didn’t AB them but that sounded good in the first place.

    Music with MCACC turned on is a shock at first. It sounds a little bright and thin as the boomy bass disappears and highs are accentuated (remember the effect will vary hugely between setups). After about 30 minutes of listening to it though I found switching MCACC off to sound awful in comparison. Separation of vocals and instruments is MUCH better with MCACC on. Turning it off let the boomy bass return and the highs sounded muffled. Despite the fact that MCACC is doing a lot of processing to the sound it actually sounds a lot more natural with it on than off.

    Some people may find it a little too accurate but you can tweak the settings. Just moving them closer to 0 from which ever direction they went will bring the sound back towards what you are used to. Despite the big change in sound in my system I have not found this necessary.

    Music sounds good. I compare mainly to my Sennheiser HD580 head phone as I think they give a better sound than my speakers can. When I switched from headphones to speaker with my SR7300 I remember thinking it sounded muffled by comparison. The Pioneer has fixed this. It still can’t compete on bass though. The definition and separation is definitely better through the head phones than my speakers. Of course I would suggest the blame for this lies with the speakers rather than the receiver. If I ever get the money together I’m sure some B&W CDM 9NTs would make a big difference here.

    Remote

    This is similar to the one that came with my SR7300. It is large and takes 4 AA batteries so isn’t exactly light. It is fairly intuitive to use though. One difference between the two is that with the Marantz you pressed a source once to control it and twice to select the source for playback on the receiver. With the Pioneer pressing a source button selects it for playback and control. You can disable the source switch and just control, but then to select it as a source you have to cycle through them as you no longer have direct access.

    I hope you can understand that! I think I preferred the Marantz method, as I frequently have the DVD and CD player on at the same time and like to control both without switching source. The way around this is to point the remote away from the receiver when I press the button, but that isn’t exactly convenient.

    I programmed control for my STB, VCR, TV, DVD and CD into the remote and it ran out of memory before I finished. The Marantz didn’t do this. I redid it missing out some nonessential functions and everything fitted. I was only able to use preset controls for my DVD player. There was nothing that worked for my Nokia STB, LG VCR, Wharfedale DVD/CD player or even my Sony TV!

    Multi-channel input

    I only have 1 DVD-A, REM – Automatic for the People. I hooked up the 3 sets of analogue connections from my Toshiba DVD player and stuck on REM. This is a bit of a disappointment, although again it is not the fault of the receiver. You can’t do any processing of the sound like applying MCACC when using the multi-channel in so I was back to the boomy, definition lacking sound I had in direct mode.

    After listening for a while I decided I’d rather have MCACC turned on and so used the full rate DTS track instead of the higher quality DVD-A track. The only time I would use the DVD-A track is in stereo using headphones. Again better positioning and possibly better speakers would probably change this.

    Power

    My room is 24’ x 13’ x 10’. The speakers are in about 2/3 of the room towards the end with the TV in it.

    For music normal listening level is -30 to 50 depending on my mood. For movies -30 is normal, -25 is starting to get loud.

    At -10 it is very loud and I would not listen to anything at that volume for more than a few minutes and even then I would have to be at the opposite end of the room.

    I’ve pushed it up to -0. Sound remains perfectly clear with no discernable distortion. My Marantz did the same though. I think the Marantz may have had slightly more power in 2 channel but I also think I’m slightly deafer now than I was then so they are probably about the same. The SR7300 is rated at 105W per channel BTW.


    Other

    I don’t use any of the video switching capabilities so I’m afraid I can make no comment on that area. I tried the USB connection to my PC and it worked perfectly first time. It’s great for a no hassle way to get stereo sound from PC to receiver without even needing a soundcard. I also output PCM stereo and AC3 from my PC, both of which the receiver dealt with fine.

    The tuner serves it purpose. It’s easy to use.

    There are 5 digital connections, 3 optical and 2 coax. This is enough for me but I would have preferred another of each.

    You can set levels individually for each speaker for each different surround mode (possibly source as well I’ll have to check). This can come in useful.

    The noise floor is good. With an analogue source I can turn the volume up to -7 before I can hear any hiss at all (I’m about 3m from the front speakers and 2m from the rears.)

    Pros:

    Excellent built quality
    Very stylish. It really does look very good, expensive too.
    Lots of features
    Auto setup is VERY good at compensating for bad speaker placement/room problems
    Sound quality is good
    Processing and options are excellent (you can bi-amp your front speakers if you only have 5.1 but I haven’t tested that yet)
    USB option is all but unique and can be useful

    Cons:

    The remote isn’t perfect
    It is expensive compared to some of its competitors depending on where you live
    Takes up a lot of space
    No gold plated connectors on the rear, only the front. I think that is poor given the price of the receiver.
     
  2. Daneel

    Daneel
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    Conclusion

    I highly recommend this receiver. If you can live without the some of the features and can find one without the high pitch problem I think the SR7300 is a good deal. RRPs are £900 ($1400) for the Pioneer and Denon 3803, £660 ($1020) for the SR7300 here in the UK. I think the 3803 has a lower RRP in the US which is annoying. I’ve also heard good things about the NAD 752.

    Having heard the difference in sound made by MCACC I’m not sure how a receiver without such a feature can compete. I haven’t listened to the Sony 333ES though which is supposed to be very tweakable, even if you have to do it manually. With better speakers & placement I would imagine MCACC would make less difference.

    I bought this receiver blind and everything has worked out. I only did that because I had no choice. If you possibly can always demo before you buy. Make sure if you do demo the 2011/45tx that it has been setup properly. This difference it makes can be huge.

    I am not a brand supporter and never try to stuff a product down someone else’s throat just because I like it. Whenever I do a review I try to make it impartial. Believe me if this had been a poor receiver I would have sent it back. I chose my supplier among other reasons because of the fact that I can return the unit within 14 days if I don’t like it. I just have to pay the shipping. I was prepared to try the Denon 3803 and NAD 752 if I didn’t like the Pioneer.

    I hope this review has been helpful.
     
  3. rauer

    rauer
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    Not really, now I end up buying a receiver I can't afford. ;)
     
  4. HotblackDesiato

    HotblackDesiato
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    Nice review, much of which mirrors my experience. The only obvious difference being your experience with MCACC and music. I still prefer music without the equalisation...but as you say it may be hardware dependent.
    Does MCACC get your CHT-10 right distance wise, it can't pin my CHT-15 down.
     
  5. Daneel

    Daneel
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    It puts it slightly further away than it is, about 0.3m. Then again there is normally a stool sitting infront of it.
     
  6. jhjerpe

    jhjerpe
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    My 2011 doesnt get the sub distance correct either, it a REL Q201E it it gets it wrong by a couple of meters.
     
  7. Spooky

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    Daneel , where in Scotland are ya , may come round and listen to yours as I fear I may never hear mine :rotfl:
    Great reveiw
    Laters
    Spooks
     
  8. davidhunter

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    Hi Daneel,
    Great review, I was wondering where did you buy the 2011 and for how much I am very tempted to buy one and everyone else is raving on about it. I have not found a place that actually has it in a showroom to listen too though (in Glasgow).

    The only problem I may have is I own an audio innovations pre/ power valve amp which I really love the sound of. Last year I listened to the Denon 3802 in stereo mode and there was no comparison at all for the overall sound quality especially in detail and acuracy in bass and treble. Do you find the treble high on the pioneer as that is another thing I did not like about the Denon.

    Thanks in advance

    Davy
     
  9. Daneel

    Daneel
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    I paid £712.50 from HifiBitz and waited 2 months for it. The price has gone up most places though. I used the 5% off for av forums users they had on at the time.

    With the MCACC enabled highs are certainly crisp, but that's the way I like them.

    I've only had it for a few days so I've been concentrating more on the overall sound which I think i have as I want it now. I'll probably add more comments on things such as detail levels once I've had more time with it.
     
  10. HotblackDesiato

    HotblackDesiato
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    :blush: Hadn't realised this must have another play tonight as the rears in PL2 are a tad louder than i'd like. Odd this amp seems to place some subs correctly and get others out by as much as couple of meters.
     
  11. jhjerpe

    jhjerpe
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    Select the Expert set-up menu and you can tweak everything.... keeps you busy for days!
     
  12. juboy

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    My 2011 MCACC routine placed my sub correctly to within the distance of one side of the sub to the other (about 0.3 to 0.4m) which makes sense.

    I have my sub - a Velodyne CHT-10 - facing across the front three speakers rather than directly at the listening position, which probably affected it.

    The auto set-up placed the other six speakers perfectly.

    It is very important that you carry out the entire set-up in as near silence as you can though, I re-did mine last night and one car going past during the setting of the level for the surround right put that speaker out of synch with the rest of them and with my previous auto set-up results. The microphone must be pretty sensitive.

    As I mentioned on another thread, it's also important to note that the MCACC uses the results of it's tests on the Front Left speaker as it's frame of reference for setting all the others... so it's wise to make sure the Front Left is hooked up/working correctly.
     
  13. Daneel

    Daneel
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    I'm not sure what you were refering to, but that isn't where you set the levels for each surround mode. You do it while in the mode by pressing 4 to select the speaker then 8 and enter to +/- the speaker level.

    I still can't figure out redoing EQ if it gets the speaker size wrong. If you look at pages 14 & 15 it looks like page 15 says you can adjust the SIZE of the speaker if it gets it wrong and then get it to recalibrate ("The system will output ANOTHER series of test tones to establish the proper channel level, channel delay and acoustic calibration EQ. Again be prepared for loud test tones."). I only have options to next (move through the settings it has made) or exit.

    Anyone get this to work?
     
  14. HotblackDesiato

    HotblackDesiato
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    Thanks for that...i'd been in the "expert menu" but didn't recall seeing a set up for the different surround modes....and if it was in the instructions it passed me by.

    The autoset up gets my speaker size right, but like you i've not been able to find a "go and have another go" for anything but which channels you have hooked up.

    My CHT sits right underneath my right Gallo and faces at me, but while the Gallo is pegged at 3.1 the sub keeps getting returned at 5.1 meters...some where on next doors drive!?
     
  15. 3wrLcs

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    Davy,

    Why don't you use the front pre outs on the 2011 to your pre/power and keep your pre/power for stereo to give you the best of both worlds. That's what I'm doing and it seems to work pretty well.

    Brendan
     
  16. Daneel

    Daneel
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    After a long period of listening this afternoon I think I can comment on the stereo performance I was so concerned about before buying this receiver.

    It is excellent.

    The clarity and soundstage are very good. Even without an AB with the SR7300 I think I can confidently say it is better. MCACC does a great job. I was skeptical about it when trying to decide between the 2011 and the 1011 but I am VERY glad I went for the 2011.

    For the first time I don't hear sound coming from my speakers, it's just there. I listened to a load of music, various styles and ended up listening for far longer than I intended, it was just great!

    Detail is very good. The clarity is a big plus when listening at low volumes, finally I can enjoy music at low volume without wishing I could turn it up to get the dynamics working.

    After lots of stereo testing I put in The Corrs: Unplugged DVD, DD 5.0 448 kbps. That is one great DVD with 4 great musicians. There is a full orchestra to support them and you can hear it on my system now.

    For those of you who say that this receiver is not very good in stereo and that I should go with a dedicated 2 channel amp my reply is please let me hear it! I am very happy with the sound as it is, if it gets much better I don't think I will do anything other than listen to music all day!

    :clap: :D
     
  17. davidhunter

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    Hi Brendan,
    I was considering that move the only thing is it means more gadgets in the living room also if I use the pre outs to power the valve amp I think it might sound out of sync as valves are so different to the sound of transistors ie the warm smooth sound would be at the fronts the rears would sound crisp and precise etc.
    I wish there was some way that for films I could use the 2011 for all speakers and when listening to music I could go straight to the valve amp for the sound I like !! I think my only option is to get 5.1 .... is to ditch the valves lose some quality in CD playback and get a great surround sound system

    Davy
     
  18. jhjerpe

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    I have to agree with the Stero performance. I was considering getting a seperate stero amp but now that I have had the 2011 for a couple of months I have changed my mind.

    Has any one Bi-amped their front speakers instead of using the Surround backs yet?
     
  19. mutley

    mutley
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    Daneel: are you using banana plugs with it?
     
  20. Daneel

    Daneel
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    Nope. Bare speaker wire. The £13 per 10m Hitachi stuff from Argos.
     
  21. mutley

    mutley
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    but it can be done, can't it?
     
  22. jhjerpe

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    I am using banana plugs with my 2011. You have to get the little plastic bungs out of the back of the connectors... they are real difficult little buggers to get out!
     
  23. wilber

    wilber
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    To get the caps out uoy just need a very small screwdriver & lever them out - took about 2mins to do them all on my 811
     
  24. 337GUS

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    I got the caps out with a corkscrew and am using banana plugs with my 2011 no prob
     
  25. jhjerpe

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    I still maintain that they are difficult to get out....:rolleyes: or maybe I am just a big dumb!
     
  26. pstables

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    Got my 2011 on saturday from SuperFi in Manchester. I removed the plugs by screwing a self tapping screw into into the hole in the middle and they just slide out.
    I did have to cut a big hole in back of my cabinet so it would fit (big buggers aren't they) but it's been well worth it.
    It sounds awesome. Attack Of The Clones orchestral intro sounds absolutley amazing.

    Paul
     
  27. HotblackDesiato

    HotblackDesiato
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    OK maybe something i missed in the instructions...but is there anyway to get information on the audiostream, bit rates and such, up on this amp...i know it's a sad question...but that's me.:blush:
     
  28. Dazed

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    Finally got my 2011 set up on Saturday and Sunday last. First impressions are - blimey it's huge! There is only about 4cms of clearance to the above shelf in my AV rack - the manual says there should be 60cm! D'oh I'll have to go easy! Not that I get much of a chance to crank things up any more, which brings me to "Midnight Mode", I find this truly exceptional when you're playing anything through an analogue source and you need to play it relatively quietly - choose Midnight it opens up the dynamics very impressively. I believe DRC does the same thing with Digital sources - however unfortunately you have to delve into the Expert Menu (?) to switch it on rather than the simple toggle switch on the (impressive) remote.

    BTW how does it work, Midnight Mode that is.
     
  29. jhjerpe

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    By pressing the button? :)
     
  30. meep

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    I love my 2011 but this is where it falls dow.

    First off, it does not have any upsampling of video signals. I know at the price this is probably a no no anyway but this one feature would make this receiver perfect!

    Furthermore, with signal passthrough, there are problems.

    I take a component signal from by Sky Digibox (via RGB-Component convertor) and pass it through the receiver. When I plug the receiver component out into my HTPCs Holo3D inputs (quality component capture card), the signal is seriously degraded (colour shifted/soalarised and much darker).

    If I take the component out from the digibox straight into the HTPC, the picture is perfect. I have eliminated cables etc. from the equation so my only conclusion is that the 2011 is somehow corrupting the signal.

    I have been in contact with pioneer tech Support who have not seen the problem before but did admit that the 2011 performs some signal process to passthrough video and, anyway, the output is only rated for consumer devices like Plasmas etc. and my fancy H3D card must not be tolerant of consumer level video.:rolleyes:

    What business has my receiver "processing" passthrough signals anyway, particularly if it has no interest in upsampling. :nono:

    Anyway, hopefully that will help fill in the video gap in the (excellent) review. even with those issues, i won't be swapping my 2011 soon (unless I get enough €€ to invest in some serious pre/power combos!)

    Regards

    Peter
     

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