DT79
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A while back someone was asking on the Lyngdorf thread whether anyone had experience of how good the phono stage built in to the analogue module of the TDAI-3400 is, and it dawned on me that I had one but have never even tried it. I already had a very good phono preamp before I got my 3400 so never thought about using the in-built one. I had a bit of time on my hands (this was all before Xmas by the way, this is not how I spent my Xmas day ) so I thought it would be interesting to do some comparisons to my Gold Note PH-10+PSU-10 (£2,900 together based on today’s prices - I didn’t pay that thank goodness).
The 3400 has a feature whereby you can see a handy input level display in -dB along with visual indicator bars allowing a somewhat objective measurement of the noise floor of each of the ‘stages. My initial intention was to include photos of the display showing this for each but it turns out that the display refresh frequency makes it very hard to photograph well. I’m assuming that this input level measurement is both a) accurate and b) a relevant way to ascertain the noise floor. If I’m wrong about the latter, perhaps someone can set me straight.
This will be a 2-part write up starting with the measurements and then followed by my completely subjective listening tests and conclusions.
My method was to equalise the output level of each stage/cartridge combo in order to do a fair test of both the noise floor and the musical end results. I used the LR balance test track on my Hi-Fi News test record with a volume setting of -27dB on the 3400, which gave a reading of ~60dB on my SPL meter. This was just an arbitrary reference level ascertained using an MM cartridge into the Gold Note as that’s what was already connected when I started off. I equalised the other combos preferring any gain adjustment present in the ‘stage (applies only to the GoldNote) and then the input level adjustment on the amp as necessary to get the output to ~60dB on the test tone.
MM cartridge is Ortofon 2M Black; MC is Ortofon Cadenza Black (obviously only relevant to the Gold Note). Rest of the system as per my signature.
For reference the noise floor of the amp (i.e. with nothing connected):
Digital input = -154dB (adjusting gain makes no difference)
Analogue input = -107dB (0dB input gain; adding gain seems to add same value to measured input level, which I think is what’s expected and indicates the noise floor stays the same as gain increases, or at least is only added to negligibly).
In addition to seeing what the 3400 registers as the noise floor, I also ascertained the point at which hiss/noise is audible at the main listening position. I’ve tried to be as objective as possible but because the 3400 volume increases in increments of 0.1dB attempting to find the absolute point of audibility was a bit too tedious for me so instead I went with the point that it’s significant enough to be ‘noticeable‘ and did my best to be consistent. For reference (as any 3400 volume setting I state will be arbitrary to you) listening level with my wife in room is probably -35dB to -30dB, listening on my own normally around -25dB to -20dB and getting carried away after a few beers maybe -15dB max.
Gold Note PH-10 + PSU-10 (reference) - MM
Capacitance 220pF (298pF total)
Gain = 45dB (0dB gain setting)
Amp input gain = 0
Noise floor = -68dB
Level at which hiss is noticeable = -18.0 dB
Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 built-in Phono stage (MM only)
Capacitance 100pF assumed* (178pF total)
Amp input gain = +5.5dB
Noise floor = -76dB (although with apparent random but inaudible ‘blips’ of noise)
Level at which hiss is noticeable = -10.0dB
*I can’t find the capacitance of the 3400 analogue board phono stage quoted anywhere, but the capacitance of the 1120 built-in phono stage is 100pF, so I‘ve gone with the assumption that they are the same.
Gold Note PH-10 + PSU-10 (reference) - MC (RCA)
Resistance 100ohm
Gain = 71dB (+6dB gain setting)
Amp input gain = 5.5dB
Noise floor = -64dB
Level at which hiss is noticeable = -17.0 dB
Gold Note PH-10 + PSU-10 (reference) - MC (XLR)
Resistance 100ohm
Gain = 65dB (0dB gain setting)
Amp input gain = 0dB
Noise floor = -64dB
Level at which hiss is noticeable = -19.0 dB
As you can see in terms of noise the winner hands-down is the Lyngdorf built-in phono stage. I’m pretty disappointed in the Gold Note in this respect given its cost and reputation. However it must be said that in all cases any audible background noise is irrelevant as soon as anything starts playing.
I haven’t quite finished the listening yet so my full thoughts will be in a later post, but I’ll give away a couple of spoilers. The 3400 ‘stage is not the better one sounding despite measuring the best. However it is remarkably good to the point where I would recommend that anyone who has one should not assume anything <£1k will actually be an upgrade.
Anyway, hope my ramblings are interesting/useful to someone.
Cheers.
The 3400 has a feature whereby you can see a handy input level display in -dB along with visual indicator bars allowing a somewhat objective measurement of the noise floor of each of the ‘stages. My initial intention was to include photos of the display showing this for each but it turns out that the display refresh frequency makes it very hard to photograph well. I’m assuming that this input level measurement is both a) accurate and b) a relevant way to ascertain the noise floor. If I’m wrong about the latter, perhaps someone can set me straight.
This will be a 2-part write up starting with the measurements and then followed by my completely subjective listening tests and conclusions.
My method was to equalise the output level of each stage/cartridge combo in order to do a fair test of both the noise floor and the musical end results. I used the LR balance test track on my Hi-Fi News test record with a volume setting of -27dB on the 3400, which gave a reading of ~60dB on my SPL meter. This was just an arbitrary reference level ascertained using an MM cartridge into the Gold Note as that’s what was already connected when I started off. I equalised the other combos preferring any gain adjustment present in the ‘stage (applies only to the GoldNote) and then the input level adjustment on the amp as necessary to get the output to ~60dB on the test tone.
MM cartridge is Ortofon 2M Black; MC is Ortofon Cadenza Black (obviously only relevant to the Gold Note). Rest of the system as per my signature.
For reference the noise floor of the amp (i.e. with nothing connected):
Digital input = -154dB (adjusting gain makes no difference)
Analogue input = -107dB (0dB input gain; adding gain seems to add same value to measured input level, which I think is what’s expected and indicates the noise floor stays the same as gain increases, or at least is only added to negligibly).
In addition to seeing what the 3400 registers as the noise floor, I also ascertained the point at which hiss/noise is audible at the main listening position. I’ve tried to be as objective as possible but because the 3400 volume increases in increments of 0.1dB attempting to find the absolute point of audibility was a bit too tedious for me so instead I went with the point that it’s significant enough to be ‘noticeable‘ and did my best to be consistent. For reference (as any 3400 volume setting I state will be arbitrary to you) listening level with my wife in room is probably -35dB to -30dB, listening on my own normally around -25dB to -20dB and getting carried away after a few beers maybe -15dB max.
Gold Note PH-10 + PSU-10 (reference) - MM
Capacitance 220pF (298pF total)
Gain = 45dB (0dB gain setting)
Amp input gain = 0
Noise floor = -68dB
Level at which hiss is noticeable = -18.0 dB
Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 built-in Phono stage (MM only)
Capacitance 100pF assumed* (178pF total)
Amp input gain = +5.5dB
Noise floor = -76dB (although with apparent random but inaudible ‘blips’ of noise)
Level at which hiss is noticeable = -10.0dB
*I can’t find the capacitance of the 3400 analogue board phono stage quoted anywhere, but the capacitance of the 1120 built-in phono stage is 100pF, so I‘ve gone with the assumption that they are the same.
Gold Note PH-10 + PSU-10 (reference) - MC (RCA)
Resistance 100ohm
Gain = 71dB (+6dB gain setting)
Amp input gain = 5.5dB
Noise floor = -64dB
Level at which hiss is noticeable = -17.0 dB
Gold Note PH-10 + PSU-10 (reference) - MC (XLR)
Resistance 100ohm
Gain = 65dB (0dB gain setting)
Amp input gain = 0dB
Noise floor = -64dB
Level at which hiss is noticeable = -19.0 dB
As you can see in terms of noise the winner hands-down is the Lyngdorf built-in phono stage. I’m pretty disappointed in the Gold Note in this respect given its cost and reputation. However it must be said that in all cases any audible background noise is irrelevant as soon as anything starts playing.
I haven’t quite finished the listening yet so my full thoughts will be in a later post, but I’ll give away a couple of spoilers. The 3400 ‘stage is not the better one sounding despite measuring the best. However it is remarkably good to the point where I would recommend that anyone who has one should not assume anything <£1k will actually be an upgrade.
Anyway, hope my ramblings are interesting/useful to someone.
Cheers.