Discussion in 'Televisions' started by keyser, Jun 3, 2002.
Does the pixelplus technology enhance the resulution of both ntsc and pal signals?
Yes, although most people seem to get better results with the "Double Lines" mode with NTSC signals.
just read a T3 review of the pixel plus 28 inch 9716 set which made no sense whatsoever. It said that the set offers picture quality not previously seen on CRT set, although suffers from some severe processing glitches in pixel plus mode that resulted in image lag and motion blurring of pretty much every picture played through it, they then went on to give the set a four out of five and said its a superb set and you shouldn't let the major problems put you off!! How do they figure that problems like the ones they describe shouldn't put you off?
I saw the 32'' pixelplus set at local shop last week, and I was
very dissapointed. As the magazine you quoted, picture "crispness" is very good, but digital artifacts are very noticable. PixelPlus seems to do alot of processing for the picture (image lag) and sadly it shows (motion blur + artificial looking textures). Actually, I was amazed that while set has been hyped here so much, no one had mentioned about the downsides of it. To sum it up, the major problems put me off.
Pixel Plus first samples the signal at 16MHz, then upsamples it and outputs at 64MHz.
50Hz signals are sampled at 1,024 pixels/line and de-interlaced. The field rate is then increased from 50 frames/sec to 75 frames/sec using Natural Motion. Each of the resulting frames is then scaled from the 834 x 576 frame to a 1668 x 384 field, giving a doubling of logical horizontal resolution, and one-third increase in logical vertical resolution. The apparent resolution is then 1668 x 768 pixels.
60Hz signals may be sampled at 1,024 pixels/line, or they may not - I'm not quite sure since the math doesn't quite work out perfectly. The image is de-interlaced, but kept at 60Hz. Each resulting frame is then doubled in horizontal and vertical resolution. If there are 1,024 samples/line, that means each frame is scaled from 804 x 480 to a 1608 x 480 field. The apparent resolution then becomes 1608 x 960 pixels.
It's roughly the way it behaves, although they are not official Philips numbers. Note that the numbers Philips use in marketing Pixel Plus include the picture signal in its entirety; not just the actual picture but also the porches and VBL. By that rationale Pixel Plus gets a massive resolution of 2,048 x 1,250 pixels, which is quite misleading.
Thanks Zacabeb for such a detailed breakdown! (where do you get your figures from?!).
rct- I'm surprised you say that (about Double-Lines and NTSC) because I can't get DL to work with 60Hz material at all!. I always assumed that P+ and 100HZ DS were the only display modes available as my 28" 9617 doesn't even offer Double-Lines as an option with NTSC sources...
James45/Mattij- I think you have to fully appreciate how superior things can look using P+ in order to understand why the "artifacts" are tolerable (and I'd dispute they're even present on most sources, but I'll get to that in a minute). You have to set everything up perfectly in order to really reap the benefits of it and different sources require different settings in my experience. Simply put though, the slight visual quirks are a side-effect of a fairly amazing technology. The very fact that you can view such a high resolution from sources with a quarter of the displayed information is remarkable in itself and obviously won't be possible without some kind of compromise. BUT, the very mild halo effects and slightly 'unnatural' reproduction of analogue signals are a small price to pay for such marked improvements IMO. The reviews mention these things without real concern because the issues genuinely are just slight imperfections of an otherwise fantastic product. I initially had reservations myself, but once you get used to P+, turning it off is almost unthinkable!.
After being unhappy with a number of different 50Hz sets, I found the improvements all the more satisfying (NO scan-lines, NO refresh-rate flicker, NO grain and totally smooth movement from Natural Motion). The difference is particularly noticeable with NTSC material as nasties like bad moire and aliasing are all but eradicated (although reviews rarely bother to moan about those things anyway).
Concerning the artifacts themselves though, I honestly don't think "Image-lag" or "Motion blur" should be evident on any P+ set that's set-up properly. I've witnessed very faint comet trails on football (using Double-Lines) and the temporary increase of jaggies during whip-pans (100Hz DS only), but in P+ mode it's just the halo effects that spoil things.They're easy to spot after a while and they can appear around anything at anytime (easy to spot, but easy to ignore aswell). That said, I recently bought a gamecube and I've not see any halos when using that (and I've tried 6 different games).
The halo's are like an almost invisible ripple which surrounds certain types of on-screen movement. Contrary to what you might assume though, the speed of people/objects isn't an issue if the rest of the frame is comparitively steady (so fast movement doesn't necessarily equate to more artifacts). For example, someone walking slowly as the camera pans might have a fairly large halo around them, wheras someone jumping around crazily in a stationary frame might be completely artifact free. It's not easy to anticipate the arrival of the halos either because their presence depends on all kinds of things (what the background is, how detailed the overall image is, what the settings are etc etc etc). Someone walking past a a gate or a long stretch of fence is usually rather bad for instance, but generally speaking the problem is negligible. In any case, lag/blur are practically absent so I'd be curious as to why those issues were the ones highlighted by that review.
I'd also disagree about the source used not making a difference as I've found that the halos are definitely worse with DVD's. Maybe this is because of the large amount of picture information which has to be processed (or possibly the amplification of edge-enhancement?), I don't know, but halo's are rarely present on general TV viewing. Any P+ owner can remove all haloing simply by switching to one of the other display modes, but trust me, the purist attitude soon wears off and you switch back to the P+ loveliness within minutes!.
I didn't mention these things in my own review because I hadn't actually noticed them at the time, but I'm happy to mention them now and don't consider them a big problem (I'd start a big P+ backlash thread if I did!). There's certainly no conspiracy of silence about it around here, it's just that people buy them, love them, say how great they are, THEN gradually become aware of some nagging flaws by which time they've grown to love the set as if it was a member of the family!.
Most of the people who dismiss the set on the evidence of a Currys/Comet demo have only seen the set perform while hampered by poor settings and a poor feed, so that experience counts for nothing really. As I've said before, I wouldn't swap my 9617 for any other CRT, even though some minor drawbacks are part of the package...
I'm no expert - can you enlighten me on how to ensure my 32PW617 is set up correctly to avoid the Curry's/Comet syndrome
Thanks in anticipation
As a follow up to Nyquil Driver's post, I too have a 32" 9617 which I think is fantastic.
Oddly I have had little issue with the halo effect on DVD's but more so on the Sky Digital signal (especially the low signal BBC channels) - but, as Nyquil Driver pointed out, the P+ more than makes up for that issue. Interestingly a friend who has another Philips set without P+ experiences the same halo effect, to a worse degree, so I can't see that it's the P+ that is causing the effect although it may be contributing to it's increased visibility. The artifacts/halo effect is only really apparent when there is a light background (in my experience) and is considerably worse on the low signal channels (back to the BBC again!).
Putting that aside though you can't get away from the fact that P+ makes an outstanding difference to the image quality......try comparing the amount of stars visible on the screen at the beginning of Star Wars TPM to see just how incredible it is.......!!!!!!!!
I have the 36PW9607 and i do get the halo effect - but its only slightly apparent if you look for it - however it is more visible with things like DNS, full active control, High sharpness (who needs high sharpness with P+ ) and Max dynamic contrast.
Took me a while to get used to the increased picture quality with P+ but now when i swtich to normal 10 hz scan the pic looks to blurry - P+ really is the DB's.
REEFMAN- There aren't any hard and fast rules, but most out-of-the-box set-ups will be stupidly high (especially contrast, colour and sharpness) and all the features will probably be switched on. I'd recommend you turn active control off and have dynamic contrast at minimum (or off). Most people would suggest turning DNR off aswell but I have this at medium myself as the picture seems a tad 'bitty' without it (and minimum just doesn't cut it). Colour enhancement doesn't make much difference IMO, but I leave it on just in case.
Basically though, you just have to see what looks best with the source in question. For example, I've found that if I select the 'Multimedia' option and then reduce both contrast and colour by 2, the settings are perfect for my gamecube. A lot of people would recommend you leave sharpness set to zero for everything, but in this case it's sensible to have it 2 or 3 notches up (as you'll be missing the razor-sharp edges otherwise). I think some owners are forced to have their sharpness at 0 simply because they've got their contrast set too high, so I'd advise you pay close attention to that. I've got in the habit of using different settings for each source actually, but you're best off just moving things around a bit (until you learn what effect all the different parameters have) so you can please yourself.
Barry_X- I've never used Sky Digital with my set before, but it sounds like I'm better off without it!. I find the picture from my analogue cable box more than adequate though and (like I said) all channels are more or less artifact free. I'm sure you're right about the Sky transmissions as I've noticed that Video CD's look pretty tatty. P+ obviously emphasises the shortcomings of that particular format and it makes sense that something similar happens with low quality digital broadcasts...
Personally, I have a VCR, a cable box, a Gamecube and a regular aerial all connected to the set and I don't encounter any intrusive haloing from any of those. DVD's look great (amazing infact), but they are the 'noisiest' in terms of artifacts for me. Maybe I just notice the imperfections more because the picture is generally so fantastic? I'm not really sure TBH and like spikeyboyo said, largely the problem is only noticeable when you're actively looking for it. I have to re-affirm that gamecube images (through an RGB scart with the settings mentioned above) are practically flawless though.
BTW, Does your friends set have 'Natural Motion'?, I'd hazard a guess that it's that specific feature that causes the halos.
Yes they do have NM, and I agree that is what causes the halo effect on the satellite feed (this is where they experience it most as well).
I have taken to mostly watching Digital Sky with the 100Mhz option but play all DVD's and consoles with P+ which makes them look amazing. I don't use a terrestrial aerial feed. Don't get me wrong though - I don't have an issue with the set at all, I think it's amazing, just want to put others minds at rest that are considering buying the set. For the small, almost insignificant, halo effect you get an amazing looking and sounding TV......!!!!
I have the 9616 which does not have pixelplus. However, I think the source of the artefacts is the digital natural motion which is also on the 9616. I can get rid of the afterimage by turning the sharpness down completely. This still gives a very crisp image. Digital natural motion is in my opinion just a gimic and I only use it for novelty value. It actually makes everything look like it was shot on videotape. Unfortunately I don't think you can use pixelplus without also having the natural motion engaged.
After reading a lot of the comments regarding the 36PW9607. I feel it could be the TV for me.
However, I can't seem to find out any details regarding RGB connections. The spotty youth at my local Comet didn't have a clue and all the other assistants were off flogging washine machines
I know there are 4 scarts on the 36PW9607, how many are RGB?
Any other info would be most appreciated.
Initially I would be using a Sky Digital Box, DVD Player, Video Recorder, PS2 & XBox.
Cheers - Mojo
Two SCARTS are RGB capable.
I have my 36PW9607 connected with DvD Scart 1 (RGB), SKY Scart 2 (RGB) Video Scart 3, Xbox side Svid connector.
Thx for the info.
The deed has now been done......... The 36PW9607 has been purchased and I should be receiving it just in time for the Qtr finals!!!
The picture in the shop was FAN-TAS-TIC. Even the Sony DSC demo DVD looked better on the Phillips than the Sony sets!!!
Thanks to everyone contributing to the posts regarding the 36PW9607 (both good and bad)
(a very happy) Mojo
Mojo - good luck with the set! I have had my 36pw9607 for just over a week now and it's fantastic!
Touch wood, no faults found as yet, just fantastic picture and sound quality...
I am new to this forum and I am in the process of trying to decide which TV to purchase, I had decided on the Sony KV28FQ75 but having read the problems other owners are having I have decided to give this a bodyswerve. I am now looking at a Philips but have read some bad reviews about them mainly the 6515 so really I am looking for advice from other philips owners.
The models I am looking at are
28PW6826 available for £728
28PW9616 available for £767
28DW9625 available for £799
28PW9617 havn't checked prices.
They all seem to have their own merits ie 6826 has DVD player but is only DPL.
9617 seems very high spec and is digital 5.1
DW9625 not sure about this one due to demise of ITV Digital does this TV really offer anything the others don't.
Also what are your feeling on 50HZ as opposed to 100HZ.
I will be using the set up hooked to a nicam VCR, DVD player (yet to purchase), and a SKY Digibox. At the moment use both a terestrial feed and SKY feed.
Would really appreciate any advice
Get the 9617 if you can afford it. I have the 32" version and the picture is truly amazing as many on these forums will agree. Use Pricerunner to compare prices. Good luck with your search.
Took the advice and now have the 9617 very impressed so far but only had it a couple of days and havn't really had much time to play with it much.
thanks for the advice
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