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philips pw9308 -- help!!

Discussion in 'Televisions' started by cedric, Mar 2, 2004.

  1. cedric

    cedric
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    Just bought this tv after loads of research
    bitterly disappointed --- have a freeview box in rgb scart and am wondering whether a new digital aerial will improve the picture?
    Was told i may need a new one due to where i am (bournemouth)but can view all channels with current aerial -- however faces lose definition and there appears to be this halo shimmering anytime anyone moves on screen!!!
    Football is awful unless on double lines -- ball moves like a slug!!
    How can a tv that has great reviews and pixel plus win awards when the picture appears better on cheaper tvs?
    Having said that I did look at this tv in a showroom and it didnt seem to have these problems which makes me think a new aerial may help but dont want to squander another 120 quid and it still be the same.
    I have read some of the old threads re this tv but can,t find any defintive answers.
    Can anyone advise if they think a new aerial may help and what settings are required to be able to watch without irritation!!
    Thx
     
  2. housey

    housey
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    cedric,

    Ive got this set and yes , when i first powered the thing up expecting some sort of religous experience i was gutted to say the least ! On a normal ariel it was about as good as my portable, i farted around with the settings and, yes, i got a better picture but not on the scale that the reviews led me to belive.
    I brought a Thomson freeview box (about £70), and the picture is much better , not fantastic , but a lot better. i wouldnt bother having it on the RGB port because i found it made no difference.
    However where this set excels is on DVD, on RGB its nothing short of fantastic , the pixel and movie plus is exceptional for pure digital veiwing. The lord of the rings and Star wars films are absolutely superb.
    I certainly wouldnt advise anyone to buy one of these sets, escpecially when you have to obtain a digiview box as well to get a better picture.

    p.s also the farther back you sit the better the picture is, terrible when you have just shelled out a few hundred quid , phillips hang your head in shame.
     
  3. bobones

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    An new aerial wont make the slightest bit of difference since it is a digital signal: if your signal is strong enough that the picture doesn't break up, then that's as good as it gets.

    Can't give you any advice about your problems, but don't buy an aerial!
     
  4. stlic

    stlic
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    Fiddle with the settings some. Make sure you set the outputs to the correct source. I was dissapointed at first but after playing around with the settings to get a set up I like; my RGB digibox source and S-video from the PC are set up nicely. As mentioned you do have to sit ~2 meters from the screen to see the main benefit. Some programs/DVDs benefit from Pixel Plus more than others, for example Star Trek and ER look great, BBC NEws 24 looks relatively quite poor.
     
  5. TV Headache

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    I've looked at several Pixel Plus TVs in various shops and I really couldn't see what the magazine reviewers liked about it. The pictures looked highly digitised and very artificial to me. I think the fact that Philips has just announced 'Pixel Plus 2' which aims to fix 13 of the known side-effects says it all!
    (see http://www.whatvideotv.com/cgi-bin/displaynews.php?id=5688)
     
  6. cedric

    cedric
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    stlic
    when you say set the outputs to the right source?
    I am a bit dim !!
    I have in scart 1-- freeview box , the freeview box has video scart feeding into it and the aerial from the wall.The aerial lead from the vid goes into the back of the tv and i have my dvd player in scart 2(i dont use the dvd much--i bought a gold scart for the scart1(rgb?) input.
    I was provided with an rf aerial lead with the tv but it didnt fit(the wrong connects)so i am using a really old white lead --perhaps it may help if i changed this?
    My picture does appear better on analogue than digital(faces glow white and lose definition)which is why i was pondering upgrading my aerial as surely it should be the other way round?
    The freeview box is philips 1500
    Played with it last night and it appeared better but don,t anyone dare move on the screen!!
    Any more advice/tips would be much appreciated
     
  7. stlic

    stlic
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    That is irrelevant. The problem with all forms of digital enhancement means that the technology can be improved and any half decent company will always try to remain ahead of the competition as they improve their systems. Although the new sets will address some of the issues seen in current models (as the PP "1.5" 9308 tried to do also) there will still be issues for people to notice; thats a guarentee. The fact that Panasonic have introduced their own image enhancing system and other companies may follow suit means that Philips have to try and stay one step ahead. The introduction of an improved system says nothing about the quality of the previous version. It's all relative.

    cedric you can set what each external source is through the menu->setup->source. Not too sure what it does but people have noticed a difference. I noticed a big difference as far as RGB goes from my digibox so give that a try also. There were some good settings to start you off in the forum (give Pixel Plus a search), personally I use a mixture but am happy 90% of the time with the result; sitting around 2 meters away from the screen.

    Contrast at 70-80 (maybe a little high for some)
    Brightness 38-40
    Colour 54
    Sharpness 2
    Tint Normal
    Digital Movie Plus
    Dynamic Contrast Maximum
    DNR Off (I've found DNR can regularly cause movement artifacts)
    Colour Enhancement On

    Active Control is generally set to Off

    Another thing to try is set Active control to maximum and contrast to max, this produces a nice picture but unfortunately a little dim for my room.

    Give Pixel Plus+ a chance before dismissing it. It has moments where it really shines and I can honestly say I've never seen the battle scenes from Star Trek look so good. Some people just don't like the effect and prefer the source to be as untampered with as possible. For me both options have their benefits and it really is a matter of taste.

    After having a number of people coming to look at my set the views are mixed. Suprisingly DNM raises as many concerns as Pixel Plus, people find that it makes everything seem to move faster than it should; I was the same but after viewing the screen for a few weeks now I have got used to the fluid motion.

    Having said all the above perhaps you just won't like the technology and never will no matter how much tweaking you do. If thats the case than the easiest option is to return the set or leave it in 100Hz mode.

    PS: The best way to see what Pixel Plus does is to view a movie with vast panoramic scenes. Star Trek, LOTR, Braveheart, stuff like that.
     
  8. TV Headache

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    I dissagree because this is high-end, high-price technology and whatever digital processing was involved it's not unreasonable to expect the results to look better than the un-processed picture, most of the time. Of course it's true that anything can be improved but relative to the rave reviews (and the price of the TVs) there is a LOT of room for improvement in the current Pixel Plus. I have seen far more natrual looking pictures on many cheaper TVs.
     
  9. stlic

    stlic
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    Well this is where we disagree.. I've got a high end Panasonic (admittedly 50 Hz 4:3) and used to have a Panasonic 28" 16:9; I can say that 9 out of 10 situations the Philips gives a far more refined picture and enhances detail whilst improving motion.

    I agree that there is alot of improvement possible but I'm the sort of person that has trouble viewing 100Hz TVs in general. I'm particularly sensitive to image processing and the fact that I've got used to this telly means that it's definately doing somthing right. I can understand that PP+ are not for everyone. I've got a friend that simply can't stand it (he owns a Sony FX66) and then I've got other friends who appreciate the improvments. The technology will improve just like 100Hz digital processing has improved since it's inception but some sort of PixelPlus image enhancement definately seems to be the direction that many manufacturers will take in the future because even with the current sets the difference is noticible.

    The reason I said it was irrevelvant that Philips were introducing an updated version is because there is always room for improvement and I stand by my statement that it is all relative. Just like 50Hz sets were refined, and 100Hz after that, PP+ will be also. It says little of current PP+ that Philips, more than a year later, are introducing newer sets into the market to compete with some of the processing options offered by other manufacturers. But lets leave it at that.. some people like it some don't.. like anything I guess.
     
  10. PMF

    PMF
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    Hi,
    I have the 9528 pp+ set and have to agree with Stlic. Overall I happy with this set, the picture is normally superior to anything else I have viewed. I had mine recently replaced due to a fault and had the opportunity to opt for a different set, but chose to stay with this technology. When I view other none resolution enhancing sets I now feel their picture lacks detail.

    PP+ isn't perfect, ccasional halo or artefacts etc, but I think its definately worth having, but take time to make sure you select the correct connections and settings on the television and other equipment. Play around with the picture settings as it took me a while to get the settings I was comfortable with. Also relax when your watching, don't go looking for the imperfections. I agree certain channels, programmes are moresuited to PP+ than others, but with exception of football I rarely switch it from Movie plus mode.

    I also agree it is better viewed from around 2 metres or more. Re double lines, having gotten used to this sets very stable picture, when I now switch to double lines I definately notice flicker although this gets much less noticeable the longer you watch.

    (Philips 32"9528pp+, Sony DAV S500 DVD/home theatre, SKY+(V2), JVC SVHS ET VCR)
     
  11. TV Headache

    TV Headache
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    My feeling is that Pixel Plus has acheived its recognition because the benefits seem easy to understand on the surface i.e. more pixels = more detail therefore clearer picture. But I don't know how many P+ owners out there ever stopped to question how those pixels got there, given that they were never actually broadcast...

    Of course I accept that probably most owners are satisfied once they get used to picture being different but for me this still confirms what I have always thought - that its not natrual looking - because people don't have to adapt to what seems natrual (by definition). And if you have to view it from more than 2M back are you not loosing the 'benefit' of all that extra picture detail anyway?
     
  12. stlic

    stlic
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    Good points mate.. About getting used to the picture being different, that could be down to two things. One, like you suggest you have to get used to the picture because it doesn't look "natural"; I would say that it takes a little while to get used to DNM not because it does not look any less natural than a traditional set but that it looks different. Now Philips will tell you that DNM looks more "natural" than a traditional TV and I would tend to agree with them after watching a number of different broadcasts.

    You do have to get used to any TV, even 50Hz non-processing types will seem flickery to someone whos used to 100Hz, which one is more "natural" or more comfortable to watch?

    Now to me 2 meters back is ideal for a 28" TV. I would be surprised if anyone was happy vieing a digital broadcast at closer than that on any TV, I've been there and any closer you can see the pixellation on any TV you use (limitation of the broadcast not the TV). DVD image quality is better closer up but even that benefits from viewing at an appropriate distance. PixelPlus+ is still enhanced because you get to see the benefit in the picture without noticing the artifacts (I've never said their not there..;)). When I say the screen should be viewed from 2 meters I would say the same about any 28" TV to get the best experience, any closer and you havn't got your room set up right or your looking to focus in on any imperfections in the first place.
     
  13. TV Headache

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    Having viewed 1080i broadcast pictures on a high-res plama I have to dissagree with that. If the technology is doing its job i.e. making the TV picture more life-like then the impression should be positive straight away. I'm not trying to say that any PAL-source picture could be this good, just making the point that higher resolution pictures can and should look natrual at first sight.
     
  14. stlic

    stlic
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    Well you seem to have me at a disadvantage. I havn't seen a 1080i broadcast on a HDTV set in the flesh so I simply would not know, other then from reviews and word of mouth. I can only speak for the technologies I have seen first hand, including rear projection and Plasma naturally. I would love to see a HDTV broadcast but other than on my PC it looks unlikely to become mainstream in this country atleast.
     
  15. TV Headache

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    If you get a chance, try and find a A/V shop that has a decent high-res display with a HD satellite receiver tuned-in to Euro1080 channel. It's a real eye-opener.
     
  16. bobones

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    Got to disagree about 2m from a 28" widescreen being ideal. That's about as far away as you can get before the eye loses the ability to resolve all the detail on screen. I can sit 6ft from my 44" RPTV without a problem.

    A good rule of thumb would be no closer than 1.5 x visible diagonal length and no further than 3 x visible diagonal size. The sweetspot is around 2 x diagonal or 4 x height.
     
  17. stlic

    stlic
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    Hmm I'm not too sure of any hard and fast rule but I'm simply speaking from experience. I'm talking about a comfortable viewing distance from any set really. Not necessarily the minimum but what I feel gives a panoramic feel and lets you appreciated the complete picture. I would think 2 meters from a 28 is idead, 2.5 on a 32 perhaps and greater distance on anything larger. This is regardless of the particular set ot tehnology but purely on screen size. I honestly think sitting 6 ft from a 44" is too close, 3 meters would be more confortable viewing for me so that I could appreciated the complete image.

    3x the visible diagonal size for a 28" widescreen gives approximately 2 meters. 1.5 would be around 1 meter... now for me 1 meter is too close to be comfortable.. maybe 2.5. Regardless of particular set mind.
     

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