Philips OLED TV shootout at Abbey Road Studios - The Results!

Ekko Star

Distinguished Member
so basically in film maker mode for sdr and hdr, after no preference, the LG G1 has the most votes.
Yes, that's correct.

However, there were 3 TV's grouped very closely together in that session and a large percentage had no preference.

That is by and large what you would expect from a real world independent test. All 4 sets calibrated, running the same material you would have a real job trying to tell them apart. That's exactly how it was.

The Sony was the only one quite a way off the votes though. A roomful of independent AVF people can't really be wrong in that regard. That's just the way it is I'm afraid.
 

mark6226

Well-known Member
Yes, that's correct.

However, there were 3 TV's grouped very closely together in that session and a large percentage had no preference.

That is by and large what you would expect from a real world independent test. All 4 sets calibrated, running the same material you would have a real job trying to tell them apart. That's exactly how it was.

The Sony was the only one quite a way off the votes though. A roomful of independent AVF people can't really be wrong in that regard. That's just the way it is I'm afraid.
Entirely correct. I suspect that is what upsets some people so much.
The same people probably wanted the Samsung to get trounced and it didn't.
In the real world all sets, as you say, were virtually identical.
 

Ekko Star

Distinguished Member
More important is that A90J is last...taking high price in consideration....

The price will naturally go onto form part of some people's real world decisions if they came to choose between the 4 sets.

Given where the LG and Philips are pitched, they will cetainly attract a lot of interest from potential buyers. Deservedly so.

I personally think it will come down to things like if you prefer WebOS or an Android TV. The Philips with it's B&W sound solution and Ambilight has added USP and is quite the bargain if those are of interest to you. The P5 processor also demonstrated it's muscle and was on a par with the Panasonic.

Were the Panasonic and Sony 'that' bad? Well the Panasonic certainly fared well all night in the results. Is the Sony that 'bad' ? No, because they were all fantastic sets really.

Ultimately, you also have to remember a large majority of the public are not interested in calibration or niche modes.

Do all AVForums members have their sets calibrated? No.

Anecdotal evidence/experience is most people buy the TV they like and use one of the presets and perhaps make some slight adjustments to their tastes. That's what gives by and large the brand identity associated with different brands e.g. some people like the Panasonic picture and some will always stick with Sony. It's what you know and like in that regards.
 

Steve Stifler

Well-known Member
Why does it feel like every forum member present there was asked to write a nice sponsored message in the discussions? Did they all get a free oled?
Here we go again. Another comment based on fantasy. If you actually bothered to read the article you’d know one lucky prize winner got one. Do you think they’d be dishing out freebie LG, Sony and the like? Do you think those forum members present with their experience would be swayed by a cheap bit of bribery. Funny how other brands are not putting their stuff forward for public scrutiny.
 

Geesus

Distinguished Member
More important is that A90J is last...taking high price in consideration....
Not according to literally every professional review out there and more scientific comparisons, such as the HDTV Test one. You would be mad to buy a TV based off the results of a company sponsored event such as this.
 

MEGATAMA

Well-known Member
I use FMM for sdr and hdr and Dolby Vision cinema mode or DV IMAX on Disney+
For games HGIG on Ps5 and PC and Dolby Vision gaming on XsX.

I consider full hdmi 2.1 support way more important then OS,Ambilight or any other feature.
 

MEGATAMA

Well-known Member
Not according to literally every professional review out there and more scientific comparisons, such as the HDTV Test one. You would be mad to buy a TV based off the results of a company sponsored event such as this.
This is where brand power come into play....Sony...must be good by default...seems not.
 

MEGATAMA

Well-known Member
Thing is...do the same shootout what AVForums did...real blind one,put all this rewievers,youtubers,calibrators in room and let them score what they see on panels.
Everithyng else is influnenced bay the logos we see in front of us...its human,normal.
Vincent need to do same thing next year if he wona claim that his shootout is independent,blind and not affected in any way.This year was not like that....
 

mark6226

Well-known Member
Thing is...do the same shootout what AVForums did...real blind one,put all this rewievers,youtubers,calibrators in room and let them score what they see on panels.
Everithyng else is influnenced bay the logos we see in front of us...its human,normal.
Vincent need to do same thing next year if he wona claim that his shootout is independent,blind and not affected in any way.This year was not like that....
Reviewers etc are not only influenced by the brand but they also receive incentives to say the right thing.
Its worth remembering that certain brands who give free testers will cease to give if recipients dont say the right thing.
I believe there's an old fashioned word for this.
Bribery.
I have always liked Vincent because he's honest and calls a spade a spade. He's a rarity in this world.
 

kosch

Active Member
Why does it feel like every forum member present there was asked to write a nice sponsored message in the discussions? Did they all get a free oled?
Nope, I paid for my own train tickets (3 hours nearly each way), car parking, time off work. All I received was some soft drinks, a bit of food and an abbey road mug at the end.

The important point I think everyone took away was when in calibrated mode there was little between them. Obviously running in vivid is a bad idea but it could be what your uncle/dad/sister/nan what ever does because they like it or just know no better. So Phillips having tweaked it so it wasn't the usual David Dickinson glow was just them showing off what could be done with preset modes if TV manufacturers tried really hard
 

Geesus

Distinguished Member
This is where brand power come into play....Sony...must be good by default...seems not.
It has nothing to do with the brand. So you are saying all the positive reviews + this video from an independent calibrator are wrong and this one Phillips event is right?

 

humax

Active Member


Has anyone watched the above video? Did you see the same differences in image reproduction between the two TVs in the actual shootout? TIA!

P.S. As for Vivid mode, Danny Tack himself suggests the use of it with most of the P5's filters on. It is the way Philips' engineers set up their sets. What is the point in buying a Philips, if you have all image enhancements and ambilight off, like most calibrators do? The manufacturer himself suggests you go to town with them. It is not accurate, but who cares, if it is more impressive? If you want an accurate picture, there are all the other brands for that. Someone has to have a different approach as with all things, otherwise boredom sets in. Just my two cents!
 
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MEGATAMA

Well-known Member
It has nothing to do with the brand. So you are saying all the positive reviews + this video from an independent calibrator are wrong and this one Phillips event is right?


It has everithyng with personal preferences....for all of us.
Thats why this blind shootout was such surprise.
In witch reality would Sony come last in most acurate mode if they would be able to se brands of TVs....non.
Philips would be last one,and i dont care about vivid mode i talk about accurate one witch is relavant for 99% of us here on this forum.
Vivid is for masses witch dont care about accuracy and just wona colors and picture to pop.
 

Ekko Star

Distinguished Member
P.S. As for Vivid mode, Danny Tack himself suggests the use of it with most of the P5's filters on. It is the way Philips' engineers set up their sets. What is the point in buying a Philips, if you have all image enhancements and ambilight off, like most calibrators do? The manufacturer himself suggests you go to town with them. It is not accurate, but who cares, if it is more impressive? If you want an accurate picture, there are all the other brands for that. Someone has to have a different approach as with all things, otherwise boredom sets in. Just my two cents!

Agree, that's the mode Danny Tack suggests. It pretty much harnesses the powers of their P5 Processor.

There was a suggestion from the audience that Philips perhaps rename it something other than 'Vivid'. There is some sense in that because a lot of people cross reference that in their minds with Vivid modes from other TV's and retail environments.

However, you are correct. The presets are what define each brand of TV and why most people by and large buy the sets that they do. You would buy the Philips for a trademark Philips picture etc etc

There was also another suggestion from one memebr of the audience if I recall that comparison should be an out of the box, manufacturer preset comparisons. This was done in the 2nd session but only in Vivid mode.

The Session 1 tests just went to prove that equally calibrated tests are very hard to tell apart. 3 of them certainly were. The Sony was the only odd one out.

There are of course a 'select' group of enthusiasts that have their sets calibrated and that is understandable. I'm not aware too many have a X300 brought around their house though? Even so a calbrator would only be perceptually matching to that. At the end of the day there will always be people who wish to spend on hiring a £30k reference montor and someone who will convince you of that and gladly charge you for it
 
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stevos

Distinguished Member
Why does it feel like every forum member present there was asked to write a nice sponsored message in the discussions? Did they all get a free oled?

I walked out with a free oled and a suit case of cash!!

Na I got nothing other than a few free beers, some finger food and an abbey road mug. Can't really complain at that.
 

FZ26

Active Member
... yep, you summed it all up pretty well, most people don't have their sets calibrated, so all shootouts should begin with sets just out of the box, or at max with some 200 hours of "life" (looks like oled panels brightness improves during the first 200/300 hours ...)

Of course the cost of calibrating a TV set may greatly vary, according to the time spent (number of image modes calibrated for ex), and also the distance (between the TV and the calibrator), but in most cases you will need to spend at least £300 to have your set professionally calibrated, which is by no means a small sum (especially just after you bought your TV set ...)
 

stevos

Distinguished Member
... yep, you summed it all up pretty well, most people don't have their sets calibrated, so all shootouts should begin with sets just out of the box, or at max with some 200 hours of "life" (looks like oled panels brightness improves during the first 200/300 hours ...)

Of course the cost of calibrating a TV set may greatly vary, according to the time spent (number of image modes calibrated for ex), and also the distance (between the TV and the calibrator), but in most cases you will need to spend at least £300 to have your set professionally calibrated, which is by no means a small sum (especially just after you bought your TV set ...)

To me that is a bad test for this event. Realistically the only people that are ever going to hear about the test are people with some interest in AV, who are going to at least put their TVs into the best mode available, which is likely filmmaker mode and that was tested during the event. No one reading about this event is going to watch in whatever mode it comes in (standard/eco/whatever). You could do a third set with those modes but the event was long enough and honestly I was getting bored by the end.
 

FZ26

Active Member
... I didn' take part in the event (I am French), but I understand your disappointment ...

There's obviously a big difference between "specialists"/calibrators/professional reviewers etc ... and the general public (not to say a word about age/eyesight, preferences etc ...), their expectations vary quite a lot ...
 

stevos

Distinguished Member
... I didn' take part in the event (I am French), but I understand your disappointment ...

There's obviously a big difference between "specialists"/calibrators/professional reviewers etc ... and the general public (not to say a word about age/eyesight, preferences etc ...), their expectations vary quite a lot ...

On that point I was kinda surprised, that the attendees were a lot younger than I expected. Having gone to several hifi/AV shows over the years and almost exclusively full of people in their 50s, I was surprised to see a pretty broad age range, early 30s upwards I would guess. So at least age was covered. Gender clearly not, but that was no surprise.
 

GadgetObsessed

Well-known Member
As someone who attended the event I think that the important thing to remember is that this was not intended to be an unbiased test of 4 TVs - but I had no issue with this as that was clear from the outset.

Yes the first part of the test was using calibrated settings but the key point is that Philips chose the content to display. Philips never would have shown the content that caused motion issues or flickering in the second round, if that would have impacted the Philips set. These two scenes immediately made it clear to me which set was the Philips.

I wonder how things would have gone if we had watched test scenes that are known to be difficult/problematic for OLED sets generally, or motion processing algorithms to handle, and if we had known how those scenes should look. (Which is how many reviewers test TVs.).

All the 11 clips were pretty short and I found much of the content had scenes that changed quickly so that you did not really have the time to compare two sets directly. Also most people were quite far back from the sets - the front row was about 10 ft from the screens and the second and third rows were quite a bit further back.

If we had had more time and the opportunity to get close to the sets and scrutinise the content over long periods I am sure that we would have noticed more differences in the first round. (Differences in the second round were to me irrelevant as it just showed that most manufacturers have poor vivid modes.)

I am also surprised that people have not made more of the dark scene where the Panasonic was the only set to display the just above black detail - the others crushed it to black. (This is one of the known strengths of the Panasonic.) This sort of black or white crushing issue is just the sort of thing us AVForumites usually get really obsessed with. (Who remembers the all pages on Ben Affleck's shirt in Batman. :))

So overall:
(1) If you watch some short scenes with a total content time of about 10 minutes, from a relatively long distance, then calibrated sets will all look very similar. There probably are more significant differences but they would most likely take more time and/or different content to really show up. I can believe that if you really scrutinise the sets then you may find that the Sony has advantages over the others. However, if it takes that much scrutiny is it really worth the significant extra money? (As one reviewer put it the Sony 65A90J is a bit better than other 65 sets but you would be better off spending the same money getting a 77A80 or 77C1 instead. Unfortunately Philips do not do the 936 in 77")

(2) Vivid mode is poor on most sets.
 

FZ26

Active Member
... many THX for your feedback, had I been there, I would most probably say the same as you said in your brilliant and unbiased summary ... ;)
 

La Finta Nonna

Active Member
Hmm a blind test sponsored by one of the companies involved in the test is won by the sponsors tellies. I have to say that as much as you can say that there was nothing untoward in the voting the fact that a test can be organised by one of the competitors can never be seen to be unbiased however much you dress it up.

If there was a smartphone test held in China and It was won by a certain national company everybody would be crying foul.
 

kosch

Active Member
7
Hmm a blind test sponsored by one of the companies involved in the test is won by the sponsors tellies. I have to say that as much as you can say that there was nothing untoward in the voting the fact that a test can be organised by one of the competitors can never be seen to be unbiased however much you dress it up.

If there was a smartphone test held in China and It was won by a certain national company everybody would be crying foul.
In non calibrated mode...
 

GadgetObsessed

Well-known Member
Hmm a blind test sponsored by one of the companies involved in the test is won by the sponsors tellies. I have to say that as much as you can say that there was nothing untoward in the voting the fact that a test can be organised by one of the competitors can never be seen to be unbiased however much you dress it up.

If there was a smartphone test held in China and It was won by a certain national company everybody would be crying foul.

But nobody ever claimed this test was unbiased??

It was blind and the sets were calibrated. In that sense it was fair but Philips chose the content and the format of the test. Announcing the winner based on the sum of the two rounds where it was made clear that the second test would favour Philips would only have one result.

So everyone should remember that this test was a bit of fun for those attending and a marketing exercise for Philips. This event was never sold as an ideal, unbiased or rigorous test of the current top TVs - so I don't really see why anyone it criticising it for not being an ideal test.

For anyone who complains about this test simply stump up the cash yourself for the following :)

(1) Buy 4 65" OLEDs - about £10k. Maybe throw in a Samsung QLED too...
(2) Get a reference set - a Dolby Pulsar or Sony BVM monitor should do it - about £30k to buy, or maybe you can hire one?
(3) Get/rent the ancillary equipment - e.g. something to source the content from such as a 4k bluray player and a 4 way HDMI splitter that supports 4k and HDR, lots of HDMI cables, etc..
(4) Hire a venue for a day. The sky is the limit here but TBH my local community hall would be fine as it has curtains - £100.
(5) Hire a couple of calibrators to calibrate the sets. Guessing about £1k. Then wave them goodbye.
(6) Hire some people to bring the TVs, set everything up, cover the OLEDs up like Philips did, run the test and take it all down again and take the sets away. £2k?
(7) Get some judges in. You decide whether you want to run the test using calibrators (who may recognise sets from their display attributes), film/TV technicians, film buffs, AV Forum members, people from the local old people's home, etc... Move the judges and the Tvs throughout the test to ensure that no set has a viewing angle advantage.
(8) Decide on the content (HD, SD, streamed, bluray, 4k bluray, gaming, etc.) format (SDR, HDR10, Dolby Vision) and the settings (calibrated for just day, or day and night or calibrated day and night + best available preset + out of the box setting?) . Lots of options here. To thoroughly scrutinise all the sets using a variety of content and a variety of settings will take a good few hours.
(9) Decide on the scoring - do you ask for each set to be ranked for each test, or is it better to give a score for each round so you can see how much variation there actually is.
(10) Decide how you decide on a winner or winners. Do you add all the scores up and the set with the highest overall score wins, or is it the set that won the most rounds, or do you announce a winner per category - in which case you probably find each set wins something?
(11) Publish your results on the web and wait for the complaints and abuse that your test wasn't rigorous enough or sufficiently unbiased to roll in. Realise that putting the huge cost and effort to create a perfect test really is not worth it. :)
 

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