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Philips 36PW9607: Picture 'stutters'

Discussion in 'Televisions' started by Jon Weaver, Sep 3, 2002.

  1. Jon Weaver

    Jon Weaver
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    I have just got my 9607 and am VERY impressed.

    However, I have noticed something which I think is caused by the Digital Processing.

    When there is a lot of movement, occasionally, the picture seems to stutter.. Like it misses a frame.

    I am pretty sure that this happens when there is a sudden change. For example, if the camera is rapidly moving left and then it suddently stops of change directions, the effect is almost like a frame misses.

    I wonder if it has something to do with the 'motion prediction' technology.. Perhaps the TV is predicting the next frame, but when there is a sudden chance, it can't keep up.

    Is this normal? Has anyone else seen it??
     
  2. philipb

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    Can't say I've noticed anything like that. What source are you watching?
     
  3. Jon Weaver

    Jon Weaver
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    Mainly Sky... Infact, now I come to think of it, only Sky.

    I don't think that its a problem with Sky as I have never noticed anything like this before on my 36" Sony.

    I can't exactly put my finger on what exactly I am seeing.. It happens so quickly that I am not sure if anything actually happened, but I have seen 'something' so many times now that there must be something going on.

    As I have Sky+,. I will have to find a specific example and re-watch it over and over to see if I can pin point the problem.

    I can't believe for one minute that its a fault.. I just thought that it was one of those things. But I do know that I didn't describe the problem very well as I don't really know how to describe what i am seeing..

    I will do some more tests.
     
  4. Jon Weaver

    Jon Weaver
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    I just put on my first R1 DVD and noticed something on my new 9607.

    The picutre 'wobbles'.. Only very slightly, but noticable.. Especially on static menus.

    Its still in the middle, but at the edges, the picture wobbles noticably.

    I think that this happens when the DVD player (Pioneer 545) is outputting NTSC.

    In this mode, the menus are bigger and I don't have a 'double line' option.

    This is a Pixel Plus thing as when I put the TCV in '100hz Dig. Scan' mode, the picture is stable. But I didn't buy this TV to use it in 'Dig. Scan' mode.

    As soon as I put in a PAL (R1/R4) disk or Sky, the picture is TOTALLY stable again... This only happens when I try a R1.

    I would like to think that my TV is faulty and swapping it will solve the problem, but I have my doubts.

    I will certainly log the fault with my supplier, but I have my doubts that this is actually a fault.

    Has anyone noticed this??
     
  5. Jon Weaver

    Jon Weaver
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    I think that I have reproduced this!

    I have made a post about it here:

    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.phps=&threadid=46280

    I was doing so geometry test using the AVIA setup disk, and got to a series of tests which have a really complex moving pattern, after this, the next test looked like a awful shimmering mess. After turning the TV into "100hz Dig.Scan" and back again, made it look more normal.. But its clear that certain conditions can confuse the PP+ system.

    I might be unlucky and have a faulty TV, but I have my doubts.
     
  6. rct

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    I can honestly say that I have not seen the problem you are describing on my 9617... it handles NTSC material as well as PAL... http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=46207

    The menu's are bigger because of the resolution drop due to NTSC. And you're right there is no Double Lines option available in NTSC mode.
     
  7. Jon Weaver

    Jon Weaver
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    I don't think that its an NTSC thing, but a 60hz problem.

    I forced my DVD player into PAL(60) and I get the same problem.

    The TV gets into a certain mode where you don't get offed '50hz' as a Digital Otion.

    WHat ever this mode is, is the mode which wobbles.

    I can rule my DVD player out of the equasion, as my PS2 does the same thing too, when in NTSC or 60hz (Which ever is relevant).

    I wonder if this is an incompatability between Pixel+ and 60hz, or it could be that my TV is faulty.

    Does anyone have any ideas??
     
  8. rct

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    Unfortunately I don't have the Avia setup disc, however I'm pretty sure I know what you mean.

    The only time I've ever seen this however, is at the beginning of The Simpsons on SkyOne. During the intro sequence there is some fast movement which "stutters".

    I can't say I've ever seen this on a DVD though. I had always put this down to low bitrate transmissions on Sky's part.

    It must indeed be a problem with digital natural motion, but as mentioned before, your problem seems excessive.
     
  9. rct

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    My TV handles NTSC in Pixel+ without problems, there may be something up with either the TV, your DVD Player or Playstation.
     
  10. Matthew Attoe

    Matthew Attoe
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    Yep, got this problem, too.

    Only happens on sky for me as well.

    I'm pretty sure that all the P+ sets have these common problems (dark bars, slight colour staining, goldfish bowl panning, dropped frames etc etc)

    Now I'm sure that other people with this set are bound to reply and say that they have none of these problems, and I do mean this with the utmost respect, but there really is a difference between not having the problems and not having NOTICED the problems.

    I'm waiting for a replacement set from philips (STILL!) and I'm 100% certain that it will have these problems again.

    The biggest pain for me is the goldfish bowl syndrome. See it all the time.

    I wonder if the new philips 36" tube (if it ever makes an appearance, anyone got any more info?) will solve these problems? Could it really be the tube that is causing all the problems.

    Matthew
     
  11. rct

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    Well, I consider myself very, very picky and I really don't see any point in "hiding" problems I have had with my set.

    My TV's geometry is very good aside from a slight downward curve in the bottom left hand side.

    As mentioned above, I only see the jerky movements rarely (and only on Sky).

    My TV has a very slight dark bar on the left hand side. Rarely noticeable.

    Any colour staining present when the set was purchased has now (thankfully) disappeared. My paranoia stretches to looking at purity tests on various coloured screens every so often, just to see that they haven't reappeared.

    Folks, if you were unlucky enough to get a bad TV, I do feel for you, but, I can honestly say that my Philips is the best CRT I have ever had the pleasure of viewing. :)
     
  12. Ludae

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    There are a number of conditions that can cause the stutter you mention, some exist in the source material and some are an artifact of the motion processing system (DNM). (assuming no faults with the processor itself or the firmware)

    The Motion processing can smooth out motion very well for the most part, particularly with global motion such as pans, zooms, rotation of the scene. However, where there is judder (or stutter) inherent in the source such as a poorly converted NTSC to PAL where the 3:2 pulldown wasn't taken into account, then there will be odd averaged frames every so often which, although normally visible, will stand out even more when all the motion inbetween those odd frames have been smoothed out.

    On other occasions, where the image and motion within is very great and/or complex, then the DNM processor may not be able to rely upon the motion vectors produced and will therefore fallback to a simpler processing for frame rate conversion such as the basic AABB field repeat type 100Hz. This can happen globally over the whole scene or locally in the area of greatest complexity.

    The above mentioned artifact can be most obvious on scene changes and where a large fast moving object appears on screen. It may take the motion estimator several frames to produce reliable motion vectors so in the mean time the 'normal' 100Hz judder occurs (this judder is the same on 50Hz TVs also) and can be quite jarring after experiencing smooth motion prior to the scene change and soon after.
     
  13. Markster

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    A good post matthew thank you for confirming on the issues, and for going out on a limb with your comments to invite criticism from owners who are happy with the set ;-)

    I was contemplating following jon on the swap from the sonyfs36 to philips36 but i am holding off for the time being until i can find out more.

    Unfortunately i'm one of the fussy buggers who just can't live with a noticeable problem, i find just knowing its there distracts me from viewing what is on and i spend the whole film looking for the problems instead ;-)

    I wish i could be like you rct who on one hand says:

    -- TV's geometry is very good aside from a slight downward curve in the bottom left hand side.
    -- I only see the jerky movements rarely (and only on Sky).
    -- My TV has a very slight dark bar on the left hand side. Rarely noticeable.

    and then you go on to say youve been lucky and its the best tv you've ever owned !!!! ;-).

    Knowning i even had one of those issues would be causing me sleepless nights.
    This 36" tv buying is just so much fun, don't you think?!?! ;-)
     
  14. rct

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    Markster,

    a great many of us (including myself) are very picky when it comes to shelling out vast quantities of money on something we have to use each and every day.... I really cannot believe there is a single CRT out there that would not have a single problem that I could notice.

    All CRTs have their problems, it's just that at the end of the day we have to pick one which least irritates us.

    Bring on fast-reponse (and large) LCDs!
     
  15. Jon Weaver

    Jon Weaver
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    It must be the TV.. I get the same problem with my DVD player and PS2 (even when playing games).

    As soon as it runs in 60hz mode, I get the bigger menus (Which I know is normal).. I don't have the 50hz option (Which I know is normal) and the picture wobbles.

    I will do a few more tests (using another DVD player and my Xbox), but as the PS2 and Pioneer do it, its can't be a fault on that.

    I will certainly be making a service call for this one.. I can't live with it like this, as 90% of my DVD collection is NTSC.

    My only concern is whether an engineer will acknowledge the fault based on the fact that we live in a PAL 50hz environment. Isn't it possible that they will try and make out that the TV was never designed for NTSC use?
     
  16. rct

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    Don't allow them to get away with the "not designed for NTSC" rubbish... the TVs spec clearly states that it handles NTSC. The TV in fact is designed to multiscan better than most TVs given that it can display 50Hz, 60Hz, 72Hz and 100Hz!

    If my TV can manage it without problems, yours should be able to as well. I personally would insist on replacement rather than repair as the TV is so new.

    _______________

    edit: Just set me thinking, Pixel+ is meant to be displayed @ 72Hz, I wonder if it displays at 72Hz when fed a 60Hz signal (as it does when fed a 50Hz one)

    I'm sure Zacabeb will know the answer to this one!!
     
  17. Jon Weaver

    Jon Weaver
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    I was thinking about this last night.. I wonder if any of my 'kit' is causing interference.. Specifically my REL Sub-Woofer which is located behind the TV.

    The 'wobble' in question, looks like it could be 'mains interference'.

    But its strange that it goes away when its "100hz Dig. Scan" mode, or being fed PAL

    Tonight, I am going to rip my system appart to see if its being affected by a physical influence.

    I really hope that its as simple as the set is faulty... I love the TV, but I am finding NTSC DVDs unwatchable.

    To be honest, when the picture is moving, you can't see the 'wobble', but as soon as there is a still (i.e the menus), you can clearly see it.

    The picture isn't moving, it shrinks and grows horizontally..

    In the middle, there is no movement, but at the edges the picture moves towards the centre and out again about 3-5 times per second.. Its not a vast amount of movement (perhaps 2-3mm at most), but its enough to be a destraction.

    As soon as you put in a PAL source, the picture is solid as a rock.
     
  18. Jon Weaver

    Jon Weaver
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    I am relieved that you know what I am talking about.

    We were watching Ground Force last night, and there were several cases where the camera was pointing down and would then shoot up to head hight.. This was when I saw the 'stutter' most. Quick left/right pans didn't seem to be a problem. But up/down affected it more.

    It seems that I have all the problems that 'rct' has (including the dark bar on the left), but I would agree that its the best TV I have owned.

    Before this I had the Sony FS70 and Before that the Pansonic PF10 and believe me, neither of these models were perfect.

    I have also spent time studying the Toshiba, and thats the worse of the lot (problem speaking).. Just ask people about the "bright sides".. There is no way that I could live with that!

    With regards to the linearity (goldfish bowl), geometry and staining, the Sony had these problems too.

    The linearity on the Sony was worse as it wasn't linear.. About 1/3 of the way in (on both sides) the linearity would change.. So, on the Sony, scrolling text looks like it went over two 'humps'.

    My 9607 has the same 'dark bar' on the left, but my Sony had one about 1/3 of the way in from the right (Where the 100hz seam was).

    It seems that all large CRTs have their share of problems, but I still maintain that the Philips is the best of them..

    I have only had mine for a few days, but the other night I put in a DVD at random and sat there for 5 minutes with my mouth wide open. I couldn't believe how good it looked!

    Yes, its got problems.. But its not like the competition don't.

    The only issue that I have that MUST get sorted is that my picture wobbles when watching NTSC. I am hoping that this is a fault.. But it could be down to some interference from another source.
     
  19. greenthumb

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    Hi, I own a 9527 and I experience the above problems, Especially goldfish bowl effect. I also noticed that the stuttering often appears in shots with spot focus, ie. a football mach when the camera is focused sharply on the player but not on the surrounding pitch. The area not in focus often looks very pixelated and when accompanied by movement stutters very badly. This effect seems to be exaggerated more when floodlit games are being shown.
    Maybe, as mentioned above that the quality is hugely dependant on the source and that if the transmitted image isnt close to perfect then you are gonna see problems of one sort or another. The old adage "s**T in s**t out springs to mind.
    Even with these problems I wouldnt part with it ang go back to a 50 hz set. I watched one the other day and I couldnt believe the flicker and the geom. wasnt great.
    The goldfish bowl effect does annoy me though. Does anyone know what causes this effect without taking lsd:D
     
  20. Guest

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    I have noticed this goldfish bowl effect too, in the shop of on a 36inch and at home on my 32PW9617. I think this is down to 2 things -

    1) The variable nature that the TV stretches the image when producing a widescreen image from a 4:3. This is done on a logarithmic scale and stretches the sides more than the middle. This stops (or minimises) the short fat people syndrome you would get otherwise

    2) The type of lenses used by the TV companies. I am going out on a limb here but only certain things produce this effect on a true widescreen picture and it seems to me that this could be due to the lenses used. Anyone know any more on this.

    So this can be minimised by not stretching you 4:3 broadcasts to widescreen although it may still be present sometimes. IMHO the picture looks better like this anyway.

    Cheers,
    Peter
     
  21. Jon Weaver

    Jon Weaver
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    Peter,

    neither of your suggestions explain the problem.

    1. This would be true in one of the Automatic modes, where the TV tries to fit a 4:3 picture onto a 16:9 tube.

    This would be done by a logarithmic change to the ratio across the Tube. Sony don't use this, but Pansonic do and they call it 'Just' mode.

    Anyway.. This would be true in one of these fancy modes...

    But we are setting the problem in 'Wide' mode. In this mode, the TV should have a linear ratio across the screen.. The only thing it does is 'squash' the picture from top to bottom, to correct anamorphic picture that it has.

    But from left to right, nothing should change.

    2. If this was down to a problem with a 'lens' then you would only see it on material filmed through a lens.. But we see this problem on ALL types of video. Including 'computer generated' titles and output from computer games.

    My best example of this is when you get a scrolling information bar. This was generated inside of a computer and was never filmed using a lens of any kind.
     
  22. Jon Weaver

    Jon Weaver
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    Well, its not interference from anything I have plugged in locally.

    I disconnected everything and just had my TV and DVD player on.

    At first I thought it was better, but once I found a menu which had a bit of detail near the edge of the screen, it was still wobbling.

    My fingers are crossed that this is just a fault and a replacement/repair will solve this.. But somehow I have my doubts.
     
  23. Ludae

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    I do know that for 50Hz sources the output is upconverted to 768 active picture lines at 75Hz interlaced. What it does for 60Hz sources I haven't been able to confirm.

    I am hoping Zacabeb will have the answer.

    It is well within the scanning capabilities of the TV to do various combinations of scanline upconversion and field rate. E.G. it could do 960 active lines at 60Hz interlaced (60Hz has half the flicker of 50Hz so most people would find it acceptable however, the 30Hz line flicker rate would probably give this example format away).

    720 lines @90Hz interlaced could be one possiblility.

    640 lines @90Hz interlaced is another one but then again perhaps everything (whether 50Hz or 60Hz source) is converted to 833 (768 active picture lines) as 75Hz interlaced!
     
  24. Zacabeb

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    60Hz material is kept at 60Hz in Pixel Plus.

    Pixel Plus uses a 64MHz sampling rate from what I understand (twice that of previous/non-Pixel Plus models), but the horizontal scan frequency stays the same as with regular 100Hz. With Natural Motion sets, the scan rate of 60Hz material is doubled to 120Hz. As 60Hz already has little to no visible area flicker, the Pixel Plus sets uses that capacity to double the vertical resolution instead.

    In 60Hz, Pixel Plus is similar to the Double Lines mode on the Natural Motion sets (960i), but with a doubling in horizontal output resolution. This is a hardware feature, therefore the Double Lines mode would be no different from Pixel Plus. That's why the menu appears normal size and the Double Lines mode vanishes from the menu. :)
     
  25. rct

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    Thanks for the explanation Zacabeb, I knew that I could rely on you to come up with the answer :) :D
     
  26. Jon Weaver

    Jon Weaver
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    Zacabeb, You clearly understand how P+ works.

    Can you think of any reason why my picture wobbles when I watch 60hz (PAL or NTSC) material in P+ mode, but not in 100hz Dig.Scan.

    50hz signals are fine in all modes.

    Could be a simple fault on the TV, or could it be some other influence.
     
  27. Jon Weaver

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    I have found an example where this happens ALL the time.

    If there is a shot where the camera pans across a scene with a lot of detail in the background.. Brickwork is a good example of this.

    When something gets infront of the detail (i.e a person) the effect can be seen.

    Its especially worse if the object in front is large and traveling the oposite direction to the pan.

    I guess that this is a side effect of PP+, but I am surprised how often I am seeing it.. Its getting increasingly annoying and I am tempted to start using '100hz Dig Scan' mode instead.
     
  28. bigfatlad

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    Jon is this problem apparent when watching DVDs too?
     
  29. Jon Weaver

    Jon Weaver
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    Its a good question.. I havn't had chance to watch ANY movies yet.. I have tried a few DVDs to get a feel for the picture quality, but wasn't aware of this phenomenon then.

    I will definatly watch something this weekend, so will be able to tell you later.

    Please don't think that this is a major problem.. Its a bit of a destraction, but over all the benifits that P+ adds outways the odd stutter.

    Obviously I would prefer it not to do this, but after comparing P+ on and off, ON definatly an overall improvement.
     
  30. bigfatlad

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    thanks Jon,

    My set is in stock at JL now, so delivery is imminent :D
     

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