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Philips 36PW9607: Can you turn off the Nautral Motion setting when using PixelPlus?

Discussion in 'Televisions' started by Matthew Attoe, Jun 16, 2002.

  1. Matthew Attoe

    Matthew Attoe
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    Hi guys,

    Got my 36" yesterday and set it all up. Only a couple of problems at the moment.

    1) There appears to be a little bit of "staining" in the upper right corner of the screen, as if the set isn't degaussing properly. This may well disappear over time though as the set it used.

    2) Digital Audio input is only available on Scart 1!!! On my previous Tosh you could set it to any Scart. May not be a problem to most people, but I know have to have DVD in Scart 1 (RGB), Sky in Scart 2 (RGB), VCR in scart 3 WHICH ISN"T S-VIDEO COMPATIBLE (scart 2 IS s-video compatible though) and I have a s-vhs vcr, which I now have to connect via composite - tried using the side s-video socket but got the funny dark, flickering lines down the right hand side of the picture, which someone else has reported.

    3) And this is my main question/point. I think the PixelPlus is AMAZING! It makes people look like they are in your living room with you. But whenever there are any quick pans or fast action, the picture breaks up, due to the Natural Motion, which I think is to the detriment of the set as a whole. The manual says that if you use the 100hz mode, the picture is "without motion compensation" so do you think the Natural Motion could be switched off in a Service Menu or somethiing? It is the only thing that really annoys me about the set. It has absolutely amazing picture quality on PixelPlus mode, until the picture moves.

    I have use the Ultimate DVD calibration/set-up disc to get the tv set-up as best I can, and have switched off all the toys like active Control, Dynamic Contrast etc, to try to free up "processor time" as it were to see if this would solve the problem.

    Hope something can be done... perhaps us owners of this fantastic tv can lobby Philips to get rid of the Natural Motion feature via a firmware upgrade.

    What do you think?


    Cheers


    Matthew
     
  2. Zacabeb

    Zacabeb
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    1) I don't have a good answer, but I've seen lots of sets that have such problems (including my 32PW9616) and a lot of sets that don't.

    2) Philips designed it this way, because they were afraid people would hurt their brains if the digital audio input were assignable to the other SCART's. This is not a physical limitation in the TV set though, and Philips could change it if they one day realize what we actually want from them.

    3) Pixel Plus is normally dependent on Natural Motion since it runs at 75Hz. That is enough to eliminate flicker and allows the increase in number of scanlines, without having to increase the horizontal frequency. Pixel Plus just 'moves' some of the redundant capacity away from frame rate and into resolution. Natural Motion is needed in order to properly translate the 50 fields/sec into the new 75 fields/sec.

    It should have been possible to run movies without Natural Motion though, as they wouldn't need motion compensation. It should be technically possible for Philips to add this, if they felt like it.

    Turning off the fancy features is honorable, but it doesn't affect the performance of Natural Motion. All the various tasks are done by separate subprocessors inside the general picture processor (PICNIC or other), the Natural Motion processor (FALCONIC, EAGLE-IC or whatever they use now) and the little TOPIC processor which handles LTP and the light sensor. The Natural Motion processor has but three tasks; Natural Motion, DNR and vertical scaling.

    Noisy or grainy images cause more problems for Natural Motion. On the good side, Natural Motion helps the DNR. Ironic, isn't it? :)
     
  3. Matthew Attoe

    Matthew Attoe
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    Thanks,

    I lost you after point 2 though :)

    basically, what you're saying is that without the Natural Motion technology, Pixel Plus most likely wouldn't exist?

    To be honest though, and somewhat contradict my previous post, I have just watched a full-length dvd and I didn't noticed hardly any breaking up of the picture!!! (which is good)

    Perhaps the low bit-rate of some Sky broadcasts, coupled with the fast panning etc just amplifies the break-up. Perhaps.

    Got a new sony 900 coming this week to partner up with the tv, so that should help the picture side for dvd anyway.

    Cheers


    Matthew
     
  4. Zacabeb

    Zacabeb
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    Yes, Pixel Plus evolved out of Natural Motion.

    The head engineer behind Natural Motion, Gerard de Haan, is the guy behind Pixel Plus as well. I actually read a study published by his research team where they tested various TV resolutions. They found that the Pixel Plus resolution 833i75 (833 lines, 75Hz interlaced) gained more favour from the test subjects than 525p60 (60Hz progressive) and 625i100 (regular 100Hz interlaced). Based on that study, Phlips decided to incorporate the 833i75 solution in their high-end sets and later named it Pixel Plus.

    DVD movies are gold for the processor. They can easily be de-interlaced back into sharp frames and contain few distractions from the genuine motion. Even though there can be film grain in the picture, it should be a bit easier for the Natural Motion processor since it knows that grain is supposed to be there. The general processor measures signal noise outside of the active picture area to determine the quality of transmission, adapting the behaviour of the DNR accordingly.

    Certainly, compression artifacts in the signal do confuse Natural Motion, probably even more than regular HF noise does.

    BTW, If you have Active Control set to medium or high, you may have noticed DNR will have no effect on DVD and other digital sources, while it still does on off-air signals. When Active Control is off, you can control DNR directly.
     
  5. SAINT

    SAINT
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    but mathew can i just ask where you bought your tv from and for how much???

    i am interested myself and am looking for the best deal !.




    thanx


    the saint
     
  6. Grubert

    Grubert
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    Matthew,

    If you want to torture your Pixel Plus set, get a copy of AI - Artificial Intelligence. The heavy grain of the picture is very difficult for the DNM to cope with.

    For example, take the scene where Gigolo Joe goes to the hotel and talks to the porter. The camera pans right then left. On that shot I saw the image break up with each pan. Mind you, the set was on demo, so I couldn't check or alter the settings.

    Regards.
     
  7. the badger

    the badger
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    I have a 32 9616 which has natural motion but not pixel plus. I leave natural motion off because it makes everything look like it was shot on videotape. What is the point in watching a film on dvd only to have it look like an episode of Coronation Street? Does pixel plus in any way eliminate this. On the point of digital sound. When I set my tv to Ext1 + dig audio I get no sound even though my sony dvp ns300 player has the dolby digital logo and I have connected it to the 9616 via a good quality cable into the digital in on the back of the t.v. The Philips brochure seems to imply that you need to connect the set to a dvd player which has an on board decoder to get proper dolby digital sound. Is this the case? If it is then I have 2 pieces of equipment with dolby digital logos but I cannot get dolby digital sound
     
  8. Serpico

    Serpico
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    Good grief. I was all set to go and spend the best part of two grand on one of these sets as I thought they were supposed to be the bees knees, but all this talk of picture break up has got me thinking otherwise. Apparently I sit too close to get a rear projection screen too.

    Surely the more you spend on a telly, the less headaches you should have.

    Confused in Hull.
     
  9. beavis

    beavis
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    Serpico - I own a 9607 and all I can say is I'm extremely happy with the tv and I can't see any faults with the picture or sound at all!

    It's the luck of the draw if you end up with a lemon, but for the money <£1600, for a 36" nothing comes close.

    Good luck in your search anyways!

    B.
     
  10. gringottsdirect

    gringottsdirect
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    Serpico,
    Go for it, you won't regret it, that Comet deal is good if you fancy the dvd-r, otherwise check out www.empiredirect.co.uk
     
  11. philipb

    philipb
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    To describe it as the picture breaking up is a bit OTT. What you get is that shimmer around objects as they move across the field of view (at least I assime that's what you mean) . It doesn't affect slow movement, and even for fast movements it is only really noticeable against busy backgrounds. Its not unique to Philips sets. If the 9607 did not suffer from it, it would be that bit nearer to perfection as opposed to just being bloody marvellous.
     

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