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PHD7 Rainbow effect

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by Pottsy, Jan 12, 2005.

  1. Pottsy

    Pottsy
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    When I move my eyes around the screen, I see orange and blue flashes. This is particularly noticeable on black and white material (since the orange and blue shows up well) and also on high contrast images.

    Is this the "rainbow effect"? Is it normal, and is there anything I can do to minimise it?

    I have attempted to capture this on film, by using the moving white bar test pattern. One shot is panned with the bar, the others are panned against its motion. You can see the orange and blue edges, but when viewed for real, the orange and blue bits seems to appear further away from the bar.

    The "orange" is orangey-brown, not the greeny colour that seems to have come out on the photo.

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Hawklan

    Hawklan
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    Hi

    I get the same on my Poneer 43MXE1 - Mainly on DVD's via component

    Do you suffer with the rainbow effect on DLP projectors as well ? - I do to the point that within under a minute I have a great thumping headache going. Taking this into consideration I assumed it was just me expecially since my family did not see them on the plasma

    Many thanks

    RON
     
  3. Pottsy

    Pottsy
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    Never seen a DLP in action, so don't know. 50Hz crts annoy me with their flickering though...
     
  4. LV426

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    Looks like you have "fast" eyes. And I sympathise fully since I have the same. The only platform I have seen, that I can be comfortable with, is LCD and I use LCD panels for my PC, TVs and projector.

    Although I haven't detected it as a rainbow, I have noted distinct and, in some cases, uncomfortable flicker on a number of Plasmas.

    I can't imagine there being a cure, except by replacing it with an LCD - the only platform (currently) that is completely flicker free. And don't whatever you do, go anywhere near a one-chip DLP.
     
  5. nicke20

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    bad enough to have to sell it :clap:
     
  6. Hawklan

    Hawklan
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    Oh!

    I would not go that far - The plus's out shine the odd annoyance

    Pottsy if you have any MPEG or Dolby noise reduction try turning it off it seems to help
     
  7. Pottsy

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    Hawklan,

    Don't worry, Nick has seen this screen in action and is looking to buy one...

    No NR anywhere, so far as I know.
     
  8. nicke20

    nicke20
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    its the canines gonads :smashin:

    im lined up for a march install, I have to replace the fireplace and decorate at the same time, the price of being allowed a plasma lol
     
  9. Jase

    Jase
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    I get the same on my PWD6 when I move my eyes about but the flashes tend to be yellow/green. Viewing for a few hours or more can give me a headache. I'll suffer it rather than flog the screen as the image is stunning at times.
     
  10. Repo

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    I can see flicker even on 75mhz computer monitors - but never had any flicker or rainbow effects on my Panny.
     
  11. njr

    njr
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    Wow, you must have superhuman eyes! That is amazing being able to see flicker with a refresh rate at 75 million cycles per second :D

    (You probably mean 75 hz )
     
  12. Pottsy

    Pottsy
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    Video here (Windows WMV9 1.6 Mb).
     
  13. nicke20

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    you need to get out more :laugh:
     
  14. Pottsy

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    Nick, you thought it was good at DVD before..... Now have SDI feed into Iscan.... :clap: Made vid for AV-Sales and ISF engineer. WILL get it fixed!
     
  15. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Pottsy

    Now I've got a headache :)

    Your seeing different phosphors 'decaying' at different times - you may be able to dial out some of this if you work on the RGB decoder; though you equally could end up with a very odd colour palette.

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  16. Hawklan

    Hawklan
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    Joe

    Are you saying that Pottsy has a problem with his plasma or is it just a plasma thing that we have to live with

    Many thanks

    RON
     
  17. nicke20

    nicke20
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    Damm joe beat me to it

    Figured out over tea that as a white signal is all colours being fired off the colour on a trailing edge was just one of the clours having more permenance than the others (a type of plasma red shift) :laugh:
     
  18. Pottsy

    Pottsy
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    Joe,

    At last, an expert on my case!! Thanks for the reply.

    This makes sense, but (and I would probably get a pro to do this for me) does the "work on the RGB decoder" involve:

    Twiddling service menus, or
    Twiddling innards?

    Can an ISF man do this, or is it a return to Panasonic? Finally, in your experience, is my plasma out of normal tolerance? Watching a black and white film is just and orange and blue nightmare!

    TIA,

    Pottsy
     
  19. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Hawklan

    I think possibly Pottsy has to live with it - for many thousands of other Plasma owners its a non issue as they are not affected.

    As with DLP projectors different eyesight and brain processing produce different results for different people - I'm sure those who are susceptible to DLP colour wheel flashes must look on in wonderment when someone standing next to them is singing the praises of the projector they are viewing whilst they are being 'treated' for major headaches and dizziness.

    Different brands (and models) of Plasma use different phosphors and control circuits and some are much slower on certain colours than others - the delay time is interactive in that the refresh rate and signal type being used can affect the delay.

    Best regards

    Joe

    PS Of course Pottsy may simply have a defective Display that's overemphasising this feature of Plasma technology.
     
  20. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Pottsy

    Someone with knowledge of the inner workings of the Display, a Colour Analyser and an ISF Certificate can most definitely ensure that when your watching a Black and White (B&W) image you don't see any colour - however it sounds like your starting with a Display that's way out of whack from what I've ever experienced as far as 'out of the box' settings.

    It might be an idea to use the 'N' Normalize button on your remote to get back to factory defaults - you will often see a degree of colours shift in B&W images on factory settings; though not to the extent you've indicated.

    Are you able to view a 'same model' display as a reference against your own?

    Best regards

    Joe

    PS nicke20 - great mental image! You munching your tea; the usual family hubbub going on around you and a wee 'eureka' light bulb flashing on above your head. I hope you didn't miss pudding just to get in a quick post!

    PPS Pottsy you would happen to be watching YUV in RGB mode!
     
  21. Pottsy

    Pottsy
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    Just a thought...

    The effect is visible on a static picture.

    Here is a paused title (from "Pi" the other night). You should only see black and white (other than the Pace menu, obv).

    Another video (also WMV9, 700Kb)
     
  22. Hawklan

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    Hi Joe

    It's your PS thats worrying me
    How can we tell thats it's just an issue for the monority with "fast" eyes , or a defective unit

    Are any particular plasmas more prone to this problem than others - I have a Pioneer 43MXE1 thats showing the same problems

    Many thanks

    RON
     
  23. Pottsy

    Pottsy
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    Joe, lots of cross posting going on here!!

    1. I know Nick, and your image is horribly accurate...
    2. Iscan is definitely sending RGB down the VGA lead, and the Panny reports RGB.
    3. You don't need "fast eyes" to see this. Even my cruddy DV camcorder picks it up (as well as my even slower gf...)
    4. N doesn't do much, since I haven't changed much.
    5. The effect in real life on that "Pi" static shot is much more disptracting than my film shows.

    I need to remind my retailer to call me back....

    PS Nothing will keep Nick away from his food.
    PPS If I change to output YUV everything goes green!
     
  24. Joe Fernand

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    Hello all

    Pottsy - I think your now amalgamating a few 'Technology' traits into one when wiggling your Camcorder around. The Red, Green and Blue phosphors on a Display can and do illuminate and dissipate at varying speeds.

    The degree of 'lag' you see is inter dependent with the signals being displayed and the settings your running.

    Some folk definitely are susceptible to this phenomenon - some not.

    I guess on your static shot your also 'seeing' Panasonic's 'Real Black Drive' system - 'caught in the act''. To improve the contrast level of theses display's the image is 'pumped' onto the screen in predetermined 'steps' rather than being delivered in a linear manner.

    You also have to take account there being a front filter between you and the pixel array - if your close enough to the screen when wiggling your head you may well be seeing the image plus a refection of the image; this is one phenomenon that Pioneer have removed in the XDE TV's; which don't have a front filter.

    I do think you should try and view a comparative set up to your own - its the only quick way to work out if you have a faulty unit or not.

    The YUV vs. RGB suggestion was a long shot. Though I do remember someone last year having a DVD player that only output R1 discs in RGB even if the player was set to YUV!

    Hawklan - on previous generations of Pioneer MXE Displays some folk were aware of the green phosphor lagging behind the Red and Blue; the MXE1 uses a newer phosphor that claims to resolve this issue and I've certainly not had any negative feed back before now.

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  25. Pottsy

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    Hi Joe,

    Couple of things, and then some experimentation..

    The effect that looks so bad isn't well represented by the videos. It happens at any distance from the screen, and at any angle (including straight on). When you move your eyes, you get a bright, very brief coloured flash about 1/3 of the screen width away from the bright bit you were looking at. On those titles, there are colours everywhere if you move your eyes. Any black and white film gets rapid blue and orange flashes whenever you move your eyes.

    And the experiments....

    Is it the Iscan?
    Connected a Hitachi LCD PC monitor by both DVI and VGA and couldn't spot the effect anywhere. Did note that the Hitachi produced a lovely grey ramp compared to the very "steppy" Panasonic.

    Is it the VGA input?
    Connected the Pace Twin via RGB scart to a scart blade I have in the Panasonic. And yes, the effect is exactly as the VGA input.

    So, I guess it's either my eyes, and my girlfriend's eyes, or it's a design fault ("feature") or it's my particular screen.

    I guess I need to see another 42PHD7... Anyone willing to demo one to me, preferably located in a square between Liverpool, Hull, Cambridge, Gloucester?
     
  26. robin78

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    Simple solution; do not move your eyes across the screen :devil:

    the problem is that you will always see the effect once you notice it the first time. Plasma's just like CRT's are displaying and image on the screen by painting it onto the screen 50 or 60 times a second, as your eyes and brain are to slow to see this drawing it you will see the complete picture instead. If you move or shake your eyes/head/television, you distort the place & time relationship in the drawing of the pixels.

    Let me try to explain;
    If I recall correctly plasma’s draw the images on the screen by painting, unlike a ctr, the separate colors after each other. if the plasma just painted all red pixels and you displace your field of vision before it paints the green pixels you will see a band of orange/red pixels. Everybody will see this effect, you don’t need fast eyes.

    This effect is only visible if you either move your head/eyes or the plasma itself (not recommended) fast enough. If you see this in normal circumstances (because you need to move your eyes over the screen to see the whole picture) you are probably sitting to close to your screen (or your screen is to big for the viewing distance)
     
  27. Member 55145

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    Try watching a film in a VERY well lit room, it may solve your problem
     
  28. Pottsy

    Pottsy
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    I am going to get the screen calibrated - if Piers declares it "wrong", then it goes back. If not, I will only watch one part of the screen....

    BTW viewing distance is currently 3 times the diagonal distance.
     
  29. Member 55145

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    I still recommend you try better lighting in your room, i suffer from the rainbow effect on DLP projectors, so id imagine its the same for me with plasmas, but I only seen plasmas in stores and trade shows.

    When I have strong lights in the room I dont suffer from the rainbow effect as much, this is because your pupils contract and dont allow as much light in, so your eyes refresh rate slows down to take in the extra data because you can see more, patterned/complex wallpaper can help too
     
  30. Pottsy

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    Jago,

    Thanks for the suggestion. If I turn up all the lights in the room (to the extent that any blacks are now illuminated grey), it makes only a little difference. The flashes are still the same intensity, but reduced by the grey blacks.

    Would still love to see someone else's 42PHD7! Anyone? How about I bring my HD+ along so I can see your screen and you get a demo of the HD+???
     

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