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Petrol and diesel vehicle ban brought forward to 2035

MadScientist

Active Member
Great news! However, quite an ambitious target and what's the betting the Plug-in Grant will be reduced or scrapped this or in the next few years. EVs with a decent range (>250miles) are still too expensive for a lot of people and the charging infrastructure will have to improve massively especially for people who can't charge at home.
 

nheather

Distinguished Member
I wonder whether the demonising of fossil fuels actually has a negative impact on EV take-up.

Modern cars last a lot longer than they used to. I grew up in the 70s and reach car buying age in the early 80s - back then a 10 year old car was pretty clapped out. I look at 10 year old cars on the roads these days and they seem pretty good.

Even so, I used to be firmly in the camp of "buy a new car and change it every 3 or 4 years", and I'm still in that cycle BUT .... the car I bought new is now two years old, the plan was to swap it out for another new car after 4 years, maybe earlier if I was offered a good deal. And I would certainly have been looking at a hybrid or EV as a replacement. The dilemma is that I am now perceiving that because of the demonising of fossil few the value of my car has plummeted which is causing me to question whether selling it makes good sense. At the moment, I'm inclined to keep hold of it and run it into the ground rather than accept a paltry payment for it.

So in my case (and I can't imagine that I am unique) the demonising of fossil fuels may have actually significantly delayed my transition to electric vehicles.

Cheers,

Nigel
 

LV426

Administrator
Staff member
I wonder (and given that this is a news report, so is probably only partly researched) if "hybrids" included PHEVs.
In any case, in my view there are two important steps
FIRST - comprehensive, reliable, well maintained over-capacity of charging infrastructure at cost effective prices (so, not 69p/kWh, Ionity)
and only then
SECOND - promotion (by legislation, taxation, subsidy or otherwise) of EV take-up.
 

MadScientist

Active Member

Greg Hook

Moderator & Reviewer
OK, so 15 years to get a complete infrastructure in place to support electric cars.
Can't see it personally.

In this country It takes many years to decide to build something, then many more years and millions of pounds of lawyers fees before anything actually gets built.

But, happy to be proven wrong!
 

LV426

Administrator
Staff member
Watched the video. What he justifies is charging a premium for non-members. He does not (nor, I think could anyone) justify the size of that premium. He begins by describing various others - the most expensive of which is (IIRC) Polar at 40p/kWh for their fastest chargers, for non-members.

At 69p that would make EV fuel
a) about 1.5x the cost per mile of a 60mpg liquid fuelled vehicle - despite the monstrous taxes such users pay; taxes that don't apply to electricity. Only 20% VAT is applied
b) about 3.5x the actual cost of the power supplied (based on my domestic tariff and adjusted for different VAT %).

Yes - I get that premium service should carry a premium price tag to fund the system. I get that subscribers may enjoy lower rates. No disagreement there. I still don't get the size of their chosen premium.
 

sheriffwoody

Distinguished Member
i have hardly any knowledge of the electric car market, but just been looking at a few as i need a new car and looking at how viable they would be now.

i can't instal a charger at my house as i don't have a drive way, so that isn't going to be possible. but i do have chargers near my work, so i could charge it whilst i am at work i suppose.

looking at the Kona electric as it has a near 300 mile range. my commute to work is about 30 miles a day, so plenty of juice to get me to and back from work for a week and then need to charge it up on a friday for the weekend.

like i say, i have zero knowledge - so this might sound stupid, but can all electric plug in cars be charged at any charging station i can find around the country? and do they cost you to use? (as in £££'s).

one obviously needs to plan a route more than normal, to ensure there is a charging point to use should the need arise - but this isn't too much of an issue.
 

IronGiant

Moderator
like i say, i have zero knowledge - so this might sound stupid, but can all electric plug in cars be charged at any charging station i can find around the country? and do they cost you to use? (as in £££'s).
Most chargers take most types of vehicle ie charging socket and there are phone apps that you can enter your car details into so only show suitable charging points. Some are free, some are subscription and some are pay per use.

Charging points and electric vehicles UK 2020 - Zap Map is a good place to start to get an idea of what's available.
 

rustybin

Distinguished Member
What are the chances of a Govt Diesel scrappage scheme any time soon? I've got a 14 year old diesel I'm desperate to get rid of and go either electric or a small 1l petrol of some description.
 

LV426

Administrator
Staff member
......and do they cost you to use? (as in £££'s).
Varies hugely, from zero (free to use; typically 7kW units at shopping venues, hotels and the like) upwards. Most rapids (50kW or more) come in around 30-36p/kWh although with scheme membership you can do better (eg Polar 50kW 15p/kWh with £7.85 monthly subscription on top - or free subscription with Ovo energy for your domestic) and then there is Ionity which is to be avoided in all but dire circumstances at 69p contactless payment.
How far each kWh will take you varies quite a bit by vehicle and driving type and style and season. Up to about 5 miles in the better vehicles on average; most are closer to 3-4 mi/kWh.
 

IronGiant

Moderator
What are the chances of a Govt Diesel scrappage scheme any time soon? I've got a 14 year old diesel I'm desperate to get rid of and go either electric or a small 1l petrol of some description.
That would be expensive, it's far more likely in my opinion that they'll congestion charge or tax them (increased road tax and fuel duty) off the road all the while raking in the cash. But I'll keep my fingers crossed.
 
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RiceRocket

Well-known Member
Post 2035 whenever ICE cars become a minority I reckon we'll get 70/30 split in favour of hydrogen. Would surely be far easier & cheaper infrastructure-wise to convert existing petrol stations & keeps fuel duty revenue.
I wonder how the vehicle-road tax would be reconfigured though because of zero emissions? Percentage of list price? Weight?
 

Ormy

Member
Don't really care what the exact year is because...

1.) As soon as electric cars with 300+mile range are cheaper AND charging infrastructure is satisfactory AND electricity unit cost is sane I'm buying one. If those conditions are not met before the ICE ban it doesn't matter to me because....

2.) I'm also buying a small ICE-only car the year before the ban takes effect (regardless of if I have an EV by then or not) and will keep it stored (SORNed) as a backup if I do have an EV by then.

Owning an item, any item, that can no longer be legally purchased (but is still legal to own) is always an advantageous position in my experience. It will either come in handy or sell for a profit.
 

LV426

Administrator
Staff member
Most people only think they need 300 miles range. I can't speak for your specific circumstances, of course, but you would, I think, be a rare individual (and possibly dangerous, to boot) if you repeatedly drive for in excess of 5 hours without a break.
 

Clem_Dye

Well-known Member
The move away from polluting fossil fuels is essential for many reasons, but yet again, how HMG has handled things has resulted in a dogs' dinner, and will not have the intended effect. First, we were all encouraged to buy into diesel-powered cars because they were less polluting, but once everyone had jumped on the bandwagon, be it manufacturers or the buying public, diesel cars were demonised, killing the market and second hand car values. Hybrids were the brave new world. But now they're not. It's all well and good HMG making these wonderful announcements, but it does need the motor manufacturers time to adjust, and having been bitten once by diesel, have now been bitten again, just as a lot of them are introducing hybrids, be they self-charging or plug-in.

The infrastructure in this country is just not ready for a mass movement to EV, and I don't believe that it ever will be. I think that I'm correct in saying that Grant Shapps earlier this week stated that there were now more EV charging points that petrol stations in the UK. That really isn't saying much, is it (assuming of course that I'm quoting correctly). @LV426 stated above that people only think that they need a 300 mile range. That might be so, but if you're on a long journey and there aren't enough charging points, then range anxiety is your friend. That's what's deterring a lot of would-be buyers. Then there's the charging of EV. If you have your own drive, AND your household electrics can handle it, then you may well be able to charge your EV in a reasonable amount of time. But in reality, that's never going to fly. Street chargers in lamp posts might help, but that won't stop Johnny Thug having a good go at messing with things. But the big elephant in the room is power generation. Various pundits have stated that we'll need at least 15 more power stations than we currently have just to meet predicted demand. It's going to take 15 years just to build the new Hinkley power station, so if we, as a country started building them now, we might just have what we need by 2035, in time to meet HDMG's target. But we all know, Fudge and Bluster, those well-known protagonists, will take centre stage, and nothing will get done. Generating capacity is set to fall, with the removal of the last coal-powered power stations, leaving us at the mercy of wind and solar, both too unpredictable, or imported gas, or a bit of nuclear. How environmentally friendly.

Hybrid cars, those vehicles green-lit by HMG but now vilified, are an important bridge to EV nirvana, one that many were considering, me included. But now I need to re-think my car-buying plans. My wife does need a car with at least a 300 mile range, as she has elderly relatives that live that far away, and in an emergency, public transport, such as it is, is just not viable. We were thinking about a plug-in hybrid, one that we can top-up via a standard 13A feed, as our home electrics would need a major, and expensive overall just to get a charging box in situ. That said, hybrid battery range is pretty poor, averaging at about 35 miles in best conditions. That isn't really stellar. I suggest that that range needs to be doubled.

I think that what HMG should be doing, is encouraging research and investment in hydrogen power, not only for cars but for public transport such as trains, certainly on lines that haven't been electrified (again, due to messers Fudge and Bluster). When I talked to my wife about a full EV, she said 'yes', providing that the following criteria could be met:

1) The car must have a usable range of at least 300 miles.
2) It should be rechargeable from a standard 13A socket.
3) It needs to be recharged in about 15 minutes.

That, I think, covers exactly what a hydrogen-fueled car is all about.

I have no idea what we're going to regarding replacing our car. all HMG's announcements have done is to put our plans on hold, leaving us with a vehicle that needs fossil fuel.

Answers on a postcard please ...

Clem
 

IronGiant

Moderator
2) It should be rechargeable from a standard 13A socket.
3) It needs to be recharged in about 15 minutes.
A 13A socket will give you about 3kW output, so that would be about 0.75 kWh in 15 minutes. So about 3 miles range. Until they can make a 10,000% efficient motor it won't happen.

I think you need to be a tad more realistic in your expectations...
 

Clem_Dye

Well-known Member
The expectations aren’t mine, they’re my wife’s. If you’re asking someone to move from ICE to EV then those are the sort thing that people WILL expect, or something close to it, whether the technology is there or not. That’s one of the stumbling blocks for EV, and one that isn’t easy to solve. ICE vehicles offer a flexibility that EV just can’t match at present. That’s why I believe that for now, hybrid is a good bridge between the platforms, but HMG doesn’t. A mass overnight (in effect) shift to EV just won’t happen.

Clem
 

IronGiant

Moderator
Once we can get 300 miles out of a PP9 battery her expectations will be fulfilled. A Duracell will probably manage 750...
 

wass1985

Active Member
The move away from polluting fossil fuels is essential for many reasons, but yet again, how HMG has handled things has resulted in a dogs' dinner, and will not have the intended effect. First, we were all encouraged to buy into diesel-powered cars because they were less polluting, but once everyone had jumped on the bandwagon, be it manufacturers or the buying public, diesel cars were demonised, killing the market and second hand car values. Hybrids were the brave new world. But now they're not. It's all well and good HMG making these wonderful announcements, but it does need the motor manufacturers time to adjust, and having been bitten once by diesel, have now been bitten again, just as a lot of them are introducing hybrids, be they self-charging or plug-in.

The infrastructure in this country is just not ready for a mass movement to EV, and I don't believe that it ever will be. I think that I'm correct in saying that Grant Shapps earlier this week stated that there were now more EV charging points that petrol stations in the UK. That really isn't saying much, is it (assuming of course that I'm quoting correctly). @LV426 stated above that people only think that they need a 300 mile range. That might be so, but if you're on a long journey and there aren't enough charging points, then range anxiety is your friend. That's what's deterring a lot of would-be buyers. Then there's the charging of EV. If you have your own drive, AND your household electrics can handle it, then you may well be able to charge your EV in a reasonable amount of time. But in reality, that's never going to fly. Street chargers in lamp posts might help, but that won't stop Johnny Thug having a good go at messing with things. But the big elephant in the room is power generation. Various pundits have stated that we'll need at least 15 more power stations than we currently have just to meet predicted demand. It's going to take 15 years just to build the new Hinkley power station, so if we, as a country started building them now, we might just have what we need by 2035, in time to meet HDMG's target. But we all know, Fudge and Bluster, those well-known protagonists, will take centre stage, and nothing will get done. Generating capacity is set to fall, with the removal of the last coal-powered power stations, leaving us at the mercy of wind and solar, both too unpredictable, or imported gas, or a bit of nuclear. How environmentally friendly.

Hybrid cars, those vehicles green-lit by HMG but now vilified, are an important bridge to EV nirvana, one that many were considering, me included. But now I need to re-think my car-buying plans. My wife does need a car with at least a 300 mile range, as she has elderly relatives that live that far away, and in an emergency, public transport, such as it is, is just not viable. We were thinking about a plug-in hybrid, one that we can top-up via a standard 13A feed, as our home electrics would need a major, and expensive overall just to get a charging box in situ. That said, hybrid battery range is pretty poor, averaging at about 35 miles in best conditions. That isn't really stellar. I suggest that that range needs to be doubled.

I think that what HMG should be doing, is encouraging research and investment in hydrogen power, not only for cars but for public transport such as trains, certainly on lines that haven't been electrified (again, due to messers Fudge and Bluster). When I talked to my wife about a full EV, she said 'yes', providing that the following criteria could be met:

1) The car must have a usable range of at least 300 miles.
2) It should be rechargeable from a standard 13A socket.
3) It needs to be recharged in about 15 minutes.

That, I think, covers exactly what a hydrogen-fueled car is all about.

I have no idea what we're going to regarding replacing our car. all HMG's announcements have done is to put our plans on hold, leaving us with a vehicle that needs fossil fuel.

Answers on a postcard please ...

Clem
That's what I've always said, what's to stop idiots tampering with the charger at best and completely destroying it at worst.
 

Clem_Dye

Well-known Member
@scarty16: it’s that word, ‘can’. We spend more time pontificating than we do getting things done. Norway has plenty of natural resources with which to generate power - we don’t. Their taxation system is different. I don’t think that comparisons between Norway and the UK are valid. EV will arrive en masse at some point, when vehicles fall in price, charging becomes quicker and the charging infrastructure becomes more mature. But I foresee charging point congestion, because there will always be far more vehicles than points; range anxiety isn’t going to go away, and charging times will remain lengthy. If you have a home with a drive, your household electricity system can support a fast charger, and you travel only relatively short distances then EV will work. That’s just not how many of us live. That’s why I think that hybrids, EV and hydrogen all have a part to play. EV is not a one size fits all solution.

Clem
 

jassco

Distinguished Member
That's what I've always said, what's to stop idiots tampering with the charger at best and completely destroying it at worst.
What a weird worry. Do you also worry every time you park on the street that someone will slash your tyres or take a sledgehammer to your car? What about siphoning off all of your fuel, or sticking a lit match into your fuel tank?
 

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