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PDP50MEX1 & Aurora A304-HDCP Card

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by pemberto, Feb 3, 2005.

  1. pemberto

    pemberto
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    Hi All,

    Have any of the Pioneer PDP50MEX1 users tried using the Aurora A304-HDCP card? I have just been told by Aurora that the TVP-500F won't be available until the 2nd quarter 2005 as they are still waiting for the card to be certified by HDMI org.

    Does anyone know what the refresh rates are for this card.

    Thanks

    Paul
     
  2. sticker

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    Don't hold your breath Paul, there are lots of suffocated Pio owners out there :)

    The time frame seems to move by the month.......................always forward!

    John
     
  3. pemberto

    pemberto
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    Has anyone tried the A304 card in a MXE1?
     
  4. cucuz

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    I think Joe Fernand at the Media Factory is the man you need to speak to . Drop him a line !
     
  5. Joe Fernand

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    Hello Pemberto

    The A304 card is analogue so whilst it has an HDMI input your video signals are converted to and processed in the analogue domain - not what most folk expect.

    I believe we will see a card from Aviosys ahead of the TVP-500 from Aurora - I've seen a prototype Aviosys working in an MXE1.

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  6. pemberto

    pemberto
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    Joe,
    What can you tell us about the Aviosys card?

    Paul
     
  7. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Hello Pemberto

    It was a pre production units I saw - it had two HDMI inputs; though I'm not sure how relevant what I saw was to what the finished item will be.

    Aviosy have been producing cards for a while for the MXE range - though without much exposure in the Consumer market; hopefully they can launch quicker than Aurora .

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  8. stricko

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    Joe (et al)

    Sorry to hijack the thread but I may be just starting to think about the same issues that this thread is covering.

    I'm running a Pio 433MXE with the standard input card. I've just bought a Samsung HD745 DVD which has DVI output, but I can't get the plamsa to give me a correct picture (its accepts an incoming 1024/768 signal, but produces a 1280/768 picture, squashed to 4:3 with black side bars. There is a thread under Plasmas). Talked to the good folks at Pioneer, and they were surprised that I'd even got an image, but suggested that I might want to consider a different input card.........

    So I find myself here.

    Am I trying to be too clever getting the HD745 to drive my 433 over DVI?

    Your thoughts as always would be much appreciated.
     
  9. philipb

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    Funny you should say that, because as I read your other thread I thought how can you even get a picture when the 433MXE is not HDCP compliant?

    Very strange.

    I have tried a Momitsu DVD player via DVI on a Pio 433MXE, and a 43MXE1, and no problem. But the Momitsu is not HDCP compliant where the Samsung is - or is supposed to be :confused:
     
  10. stricko

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    fair point, but if you have a look at the HD745 thread, there is a strong suggestion that the region-free hack also drops the HDCP requirement. I'm a bit out of my depth here I'm afraid, but circumstantial evidence (i.e there was definitely a picture, albeit squashed) does seem to support this.

    I've jusr re-read the HD745 thread and a number of post support the view that the hack enables playback on non-HDCP devices. It was one of the reasons I bought it.
     
  11. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Hello both

    stricko

    I have heard talk in the past of some HDCP enabled source kit with DVI outputs that would give you an image on a non HDCP Display - though the video stream would be low resolution and not full screen.

    I'm not sure with Samsung - after the initial batch of HDCP free players the might of Corporate Japan forced them to switch HDCP on; I'd be surprised if they now try a back door hack.

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  12. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Set the Samsung to output 1024 x768.. Put it to XGA mode and then dot for dot aspect....at least that's the first thing I'd try...

    Gordon
     
  13. philipb

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    Just to thicken the plot, had a conversation this afternoon with a gent (who shall remain nameless) in the trade who told me that he knew of Pio 43MXE1s with the 5003 video board being hacked to accept a DVI input from a HDCP compliant source. Or maybe the source was hacked?

    Either way this HDCP thing is beginning to look a bit leaky.
     
  14. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    OK: Here's the script.


    If you do some research on here it's not hard to find talk of the HDCP stripping device that folk are using. Yes it can be done....I have seen it 3 months ago.....however...

    The method used to do the stripping is the thing which could be an issue.

    My understanding is that the KEY thing is such that the manufacturer has a key and each product has a unique key on top of that. So if you want to build a stripper you find a licensee and buy some receiver chips off them and away you go.....until the HDCP org find out which manufacturer you bought your reciver chips from at which point they sue them and make their manufacturer key illegal meaning none of their products work (this is my speculation) The minimum fine is somthing like $9,000,000 for breach of the license agreement.

    The other possiblity is that you buy lots of manufacturers overstock receiver chips and then create an FPGA that cycles through the keys until it finds one that works....that would obviously take longer to make redundant.

    So basically you can get strippers now but how long they continue to be available or work is unkown. If they become prevalent then perhaps action will be taken. In the meantime it's not much to invest....

    Gordon
     
  15. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    philipb

    They would have a job with the MXE1 - there's no HDCP chip in the Display or on the 5003 card :)

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  16. loonatic

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    I'm sure I read somewhere on here that the MXE1 did have the necessary hardware to be HDCP compliant but that it was disabled due to it being an industrial model and to avoid the extra tax or something.

    If the MXE1 requires either 5003 or 5004 card to enable video modes on the VGA input what happens when it is replaced with a third-party board ? does it still work in the same way ?

    The issue surround revoking of keys will only effect new products you buy...if they work at present then they should always work...should they not ?

    So if such a 'stripping' device sits between the display and a scaler then new devices added via the scaler should still work even if the 'stripper' has had its key revoked as the handshaking would be between the 'stripper' and the scaler or does the handshaking still occur between the source and the 'stripper' with the scaler merely passing it through.

    Am I making sense ??? it would be a first :laugh:

    Cheers, Lee
     
  17. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Hello Lee

    Way back when I'm sure we were all told the HDCP was disabled - more recently when asking a few pertinent questions it transpired it simply isn't in there.

    I know the Aviosys card retains most (if not all) of the functions of the 5003/5004 and any 'Video' signals presented on the HD15 socket go through the Aviosys just as it does now with a 5003/5004.

    From what I've seen so far handshaking passes on down the line - Source > Intermediary > Display; they all need to play ball.

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  18. ancientgeek

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    Not true in my undestanding. The way it works is devices (sat/cable receivers, dvd players) are required to honour and remember in prom "revoke licence" requests which are embedded in recorded and broadcast media. Before HDCP data can flow, devices have to exchange licences which are signed and validated via public key encryption. Having validated the licence, a licensed device is required to check it against the list of revoked licences. An HDCP licence is revoked by embedding the (signed) revocation in media.

    In other words, the studios can retrospectively disable your equipment's ability to access HDCP media if someone has hacked it.

    However, if they ever actually do this, I think there will be court cases, whose outcome is not yet known.

    I'm not 100% sure about the PROM bit. If it's wrong, then your newly revoked device will still play your old media, but won't play new media with the up to date revocation list embedded.
     
  19. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    I find this hard to believe......if you have a dvd that came out 2 years ago and it has copyprotection on it,how can it have the key for a product or encryption embedded in it. I can believe that broadcast media might be able to do this but do not have enough knowledge.

    My understanding is talking to licensees. From that I gather that the main reason to stop hacking isn't so much technology as it is financial loss.

    Gordon
     
  20. MAW

    MAW
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    Key revocation is a thorny issue. My understanding of this is that the chipset itself is the 'licensed product' which is issued with a key, so if someone hacks, say, a Denon 2910 and removes HDCP, then as gordon says, only new HDCP equipment could be instructed not to handshake, and this 'new device' would then not handshake with any Denon or other makers kit with the same chipset. Of course with broadcast kit, they can do an off air software upgrade. So, say someone uses an existing HDCP chipset, hacks it to use as a 'stripper' (yes it's been done already) and this same chipset, just hypothesising here, is the one in a Pioneer media box. Now suppose that Sky get wind of the hack, it would have to be large scale, clearly, they could do the software upgrade, and the next evening, all the XDE's in the universe would stop working with Sky HD. Could that really happen?
     
  21. ancientgeek

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    No, the point is that a new dvd may disable your system from playing the old ones. HDCP transmitters (eg DVD players) have to store a "system renewability message" (SRM) which includes a list of revoked keys. The SRM is renewed by embedding a signed update in content. You can't revert to an earlier SRM by playing earlier media. So playing a new DVD with a new SRM can prevent your equipment from playing your 2-year old DVD.

    In principle, every time you play a new piece of media, your equipment's licence could be revoked, and it will stop working.

    I haven't time to read it all, and I don't think it covers everything, but here's the place to look:

    http://www.digital-cp.com/
     
  22. MAW

    MAW
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    So I'm close to the mark, but have not gone far enough! They can switch you off at will, anytime, by OTA or new DVD!
     
  23. stricko

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    gentlemen (and ladies), an update.

    Still can't get my Samsung HD745 and Pio 433MXE to talk to one another properly. Tested the plasma over DVI from a PC, and it worked a treat. 1024/768 at 60(hz) gave a fabulous picture, pin sharp, albeit 4:3 stretched to widescreen, but I had expected that. The plasma reported the incoming signal at 1024/768 48.2fh/59.8fv, Dot for Dot

    Switched to the HD745, set at 1024/768, and the results were as previous. 4:3 picture, black banding left and right. Plasma reported incoming signal as 1280/768 39.8fh/49.8fv, Full (Type)

    I tried everywhichway (I think) to switch the plasma input manually, but to no avail. In both menu mode and integrator mode, I was unable to see the relevent options under the Setup menu. The plasma seems to set them automatically, and I can't see a manual override.

    The HD745 manual suggest that all PAL DVi outputs are 50hz and NTSC 60hz. The MXE manual suggest that the DVI port does not like 50hz inputs of any flavour. So I guess I'm stuffed unless you guiys can come up with an alternative.

    In the meantime, I eailed Aurora, to see if there were any real differences between their cards, and got the following reply.

    "Thanks for your interest in our cards for the Pioneer plasmas.

    The TVP-1000 Pro has several advantages from the A304.

    First, the unit has various Split Screen and PIP capabilities which the A304 doesn’t have.

    Second, there are two SVideo/ composite video inputs on the TVP-1000 pro. The A304 only has one of each.

    Third, the TVP-1000 pro comes with a full featured IR remote (with discrete source/function selection). The IR remote also operates the Pioneer plasma functions.

    For the A304, you’ll need to use the Pioneer’s IR remote to change inputs and access menu functions. Slightly cumbersome but it’s the price you pay for.

    Overall, the video processors on the units are the same. So picture quality is superb regardless which Aurora card you choose.

    Both cards support NTSC, PAL and Secam on the SVideo, Composite Video and Component Video. We have PAL/SECAM versions of the TV Tuners for the TVP1000Pro (TVP-1000 Pro PAL)."


    The spec of the AD034 shows that it supports Pal at 720/576, 50hz, so I guess the HD745 could drive it, but given Joes earlier comments about the digital/analog/digital conversion, would it be worth the bother?
     
  24. MAW

    MAW
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    No problems any of us have noted about 50Hz on digital input. There are literally hundreds of MXEs running 50Hz happily from scalers at least. I think your Samsung is at fault here, it's simply not outputting what it says it is.
     
  25. ancientgeek

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    Can't you set the player to 1280/768 resolution?

    (That's what my 2 Macs do automatically, even though the screen is 1024/768. The PC, as you say, does 1024*768 stretched unless you use third party software).

    The Momitsu can drive the 433MXE at 1280, or at 1024, and both work, although 1024 obviously doesn't require re-scaling so is presumably slightly better.

    Actually, the PDA5002 being identical between 433MXE and 503MXE, it wouldn't surprise me if it didn't scale 1024 to 1280 on input and then scale again to 1024 on output for the 433. In which case feeding the 433 1280 would actually involve less rescaling than its "native" 1024.
     
  26. pemberto

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    Hi Guys,
    Here is an update from an email Paul Harris at Aurora send me on Friday.
    "The unit is at the HDMI testing labs but the testing is on a schedule. When I told everyone we were waiting for HDMI testing that is true but it gets scheduled. Our schedule was for Feb. The product is done but without the final ok from HDMI I can not ship the product. Once it is tested we will give the OK to our assembly to start producing. If all goes well and there are no problems the cards sould start shipping in late March."
    He has asked that I contact him at the end of the week to get an update on the testing and I will let you all know. For me this is the only thing that is stopping me from getting the MXE1 panel.
    Paul
     
  27. stricko

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    I'm out of my depth here guys, bear with me if I'm talking rubbish. The manual for the MXE shows 50hz video being supported on Input 1 and 2, but has NO supported video input on Input 5. Neither Input 1 or 5 has 50hz PC signal input shown.

    It would help if I could get to the Input 5 settings on the MXE, but none seem to be available, with the signal as it is coming in at the moment.

    The spec of the 745 does not show it as being able to output 1280/768.
     
  28. archer101

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    Hi all

    I am a 433MXE owner from Australia who has been fighting with Pioneer about this for months. All of the below is based on Australian conditions so I am willing to be corrected (especially if anyone has some solutions) but it looks like some of you guys are having the same issue.

    Mostly bad news I'm afraid:

    - Pioneer Australia have told me (sort of..) that the DVI port on the PDA-5002 does not accept HD video (eg 576p/720p/1080i) signals. It will only accept PC DVI signals of fixed resolution (eg 1024x768). I have tried a number of HD boxes here that are not HDCP compliant and none of them will produce a picture on DVI. The only DVI device (other than PC type devices) that I have heard of working properly with the MXE via DVI is the Momitsu DVD player - no idea why?
    - Aurora tell me that the A304 card will not help. In Australia (and Europe I assume) HD will be output at 50HZ - the Aurora can only accept 60Hz inputs over DVI at 720p/1080i. It will accept 50Hz via component, but you can do this already via Input 2.
    - The new Aurora card TVP-500F will NOT work in the 433 - it is designed for the 434/435 only.
    - The MXE in any event does not accept 720p/50 Hz at all - it only accepts 60Hz inputs. It will accept 576p and 1080i at 50Hz. Not sure what HD standards are being adopted in the UK but if it is 720p there is going to be a problem, regardless of the type of input you use. I have tried three STB's in Australia that output at 720p and none of them work properly on the MXE.

    I am sick of Pioneer and their attempts to ignore this problem. Not sure about the UK, but here they sold this panel via home theatre stores and quite simply the DVI input does not work in these circumstances. They just need to fix it themselves rather than telling us it is the fault of the box/dvd etc etc.

    Any ideas on solutions gratefully received....
     
  29. MAW

    MAW
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    No we are not having those issues, we know 720/50 is a non starter, but it will take native at 50Hz, which is what a lot of people want, who own scalers. It's HDCP we all want. That, we are assured, is what the aurora will add.
     
  30. stricko

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    Archer101 - I was starting to think that I was doing something stupid. Sorry to hear that you have the same problem, but glad that I'm not a lone voice in the wilderness.

    MAW - Sorry, I must be missing the point. What does "native at 50hz" mean. I've seen lots of MXEs being driven at 50hz over VGA via input 1, but I've not seen any on DVI. Like I said before I'm out of my depth, so please forgive me if I'm overlooking the obvious.
     

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