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PC DVI-D output to a LCD TV... ?

Discussion in 'Desktop & Laptop Computers Forum' started by erwinb, Feb 23, 2005.

  1. erwinb

    erwinb
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    Hi,

    I've just purchased a Toshiba 27WL46 LCD tv, which has besides 2 tuners and a 1280x720 panel, also a PC-input (DSub) and a DVI-D input.

    When running my Radeon 9700 Pro AIW via DVI to this panel it doesn't work at all because the Radeon doesn't detect the Digital panel. I tried to use the converter plug and work with the Dsub connection which works fine. However the only (high) resolution I can select is 1280x768, which is interpolated by the screen, which honnestly sucks.
    When I try to connect my Geforce 6800GT to the DVI-D connector, it does give me signal, but the only resolutions it can use are:
    640x480, 800x600, and 1024x768. i.e. not the 1280x720.

    I'm now considering to exchange the LCD-TV to a 32" Samsung (LW32A33)with DVI-I support, however... in the manual it says the following (broken english):
    DVI dose not support PC function.
    Further it states that the DVI port supports the following inputs:
    Video HF VF Resolution (Lines)
    480/60i 15.734 60 483
    480/60p 31.469 60 483
    576/50i 15.625 50 576
    576/50p 31.250 50 576
    720/60p 45.000 60 720
    1080/50i 28.125 50 1080
    1080/60i 33.750 60 1080

    Now my questions is that I'm wondering if any of you have experience with getting a LCD-TV to actually give native-resolution access to the panel via DVI.
    More specifically if the Samsung supports this properly as it claims.

    regards,

    Erwin

    PS the Samsung is 1500 euro more expensive, so it's not a decision to 'just try'.
     
  2. FruitBat

    FruitBat
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    Tried this with a Samsung LW26A33.
    I couldn't get any sensible output. IIRC, the 800x600 filled the screen (stretched) and higher resolutions seemed to result in a windows desktop bigger than the physical screen (i.e. the screen showed a portion of the desktop which could be scrolled around). For this TV 1280x768 via Dsub works OK as it's the native resolution (the panel is 15:9). My video card is a ATI Radeon 7000. I haven't tried with anything newer.
    The DVI connection is clearly intended for DVD players with DVI. However, I can think of no reason why a PC with the correct configuration wouldn't work (I'm no expert).
    There may be more info on the LCD forum. I haven't looked there for months.
     
  3. erwinb

    erwinb
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    I had exactly the same experience with the Toshiba I have now.
    The reason I want to use the DVI instead of the dsub connector, is that I get flashing pixels, i.e. for example when I display my Windows desktop, some of the text is represented by 1 pixel, some by 2.
    In movies I would like to use my videocards hardware to do the interpolation of the DVD image, instead of the TV's hardware. Which is a much worse quality when the videocard has no direct access to the native pixels.

    Anyone got this working on a Plasma or LCD-TV?
     
  4. KraGorn

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    Which drivers are you using. Recent versions of both ATI and nVidia Control Panels include 1280x720 as a standard resolution, and the nVidia software allows you to set up custom resolutions.

    Alternatively, try Powerstrip, which is what is most commonly used to get 1:1 mapping with all sorts of display devices.
     
  5. miika

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    Well, my TV is 27wl46, and the problem (with DVI, not with d-sub) is that no matter what the driver is, there is no picture at all on ATI cards after the windows logo and on nvidia cards only allowable resolutions are 1024x768 and less. Powerstrip can't help here since the nvidia driver does not allow resolutions above 1024x768.

    The reason for this behaviour is a defective EDID in the DVI-port. There might be a software solution coming one day, but the only solution now is to bypass the EDID. More info here:
    http://www.entechtaiwan.net/forums/...start=15&sid=7bc394033701580d8e2bffa01cc9b116
     
  6. finn1581

    finn1581
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    I've had the same problem, It seems after much investigation that The DVI-D port on the Toshiba 27WL46 is in fact a DVI port and not a DVI-D. It is labelled DVI-D but I think that is a mistake.
    Maybe this would cause problems if you were using the wrong cable??
     
  7. kolabere

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    Not quite sure what you mean by "not a DVI-D" - DVI-I or DVI-A?.

    I too am having the same problems with a Toshiba 27WL46, in fact I posted the following on the Artisan thread last week and am still awaiting a satisfactory solution.
    Toshiba's engineers were supposed to contact me last week, but I'm still waiting :mad: .

    Any suggestions would be gratefully received.
     
  8. miika

    miika
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    To me it would seem that even some people at Toshiba don't know the reason for this stupid behaviour. The port in the Toshiba is certainly a DVI-D-type.

    I'll try to put it simple. In all modern displays, regardless of D-SUB or DVI-(D/I/A), there are four signals in the cable/connector that are _only_ meant for sending/receiving a special 128 byte (or 256 byte in enhanced EDID) block of information called the EDID code (try define:edid in google). This EDID code is always stored in a 1kbit (or 2kbit in case of enhanced EDID) semiconductor memory (EEPROM) that's located somewhere in the TV, and the code includes all the necessary information about the TV's timings, resolutions etc.
    Now, this EDID is properly stored in the D-SUB port of the Tosh but seems to be missing from the DVI-D-port (actually the EDID in the DVI-D port is a sequence of zeros). This is why you can't get any satisfactory resolutions!

    This problem can be bypassed by feeding the EDID from an external EEPROM. For more info, see the EnTech thread.

    EDIT: By the way, when I contacted Toshiba about this problem (I wanted to know whether the EEPROM in the DVI-D port is hardware write protected or not..), they said that this problem has been corrected in all models shipping recently..we'll see...
     
  9. kolabere

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    miika,

    Is what you're describing the same or different from a firmware update. It has been suggested to me that Toshiba need to be given a kick up the backside to produce new firmware to resolve this issue.

    I purchased my Tosh in February - does that make it old or recent?
     
  10. miika

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    My solution is definitely not a "firmware update", it just bypasses the Toshiba's semiconductor memory holding the EDID. You could call it a hardware tweak :)
    There is one problem in producing and using a firmware update. First, you would have to boot into windows' safe mode (these problems are not present in Linux I would guess) and apply the update. The update should send a new EDID through the DVI-bus to the TV. Not so difficult so far, eh?
    The thing is, if those idiot engineers at Toshiba didn't pay attention to the component layout of the TV's circuit board, they might have hardware write-protected the EEPROM that holds the EDID (or worse, might have left the EEPROM out!). If this is the case, there really is no way to firmware update the TV by software (You would have to send your set to the manufacturer).
    There is currently a program "under construction" that can modify a display's EDID, provided that the EEPROM is not write protected. Until that, or until Toshiba releases an update (never), the only way is to use an external EDID/EEPROM.

    In fact, I contacted Toshiba to find out if the EEPROM is write protected. They didn't give me an answer but just wanted to know more about the configuration of my computer. I tried to explain them that this is no incompatibility issue since I've been using my EDID-bypasser on both NVIDIA and ATI cards..no answers from Toshiba thereafter.


    I bought mine in January so I really don't know what's recent. I believe they haven't really fixed the problem in the new devices because they don't even seem to understand what the problem is!
     
  11. kolabere

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    Miika,
    I'm hoping that the Toshiba engineer will contact me today regarding a visit. Maybe he's going to do what you have been suggesting.

    I will keep you posted if there are any developments.
     
  12. miika

    miika
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    I would appreciate that, thank you.
     
  13. tonywl

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    Hello all

    I have the same problem and just posted a thread before reading yours! I am not sure why the DVI input does not work with my PC video card (ATI All in wonder 9800 pro) but I have tried resolving this issue for over 2 months now. I have to say that a PC engineer did manage by luck to get a perfect DVI image by loading an abridged driver set. There are 2 sets of drivers for this graphics card...primary and secondary. I believe he managed to get a DVI signal through when only the primary set was loaded but this is not sufficent for gaming, watching TV, etc. I really would appreciate any solution to this issue as it was to be used to watch TV through the PC!
     
  14. kolabere

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    Toshiba engineers have come and gone and progress is NIL.

    I have since spoken with Elonex (extremely helpful on this issue), who were amazed that Toshiba had sent out two engineers withot any means to verify that there was a DVI signal from the Artisan for the Toshiba to read! Elonex will immediately send a DVI to VGA converter so that I can confirm that the Artisan's DVI port is working [I get a signal via VGA cable].

    Elonex have just rung back and suggested - don't waist any more time, you've tried the the Toshiba with 2 PCs with DVI O/P and neither produces a signal after the boot screens and their onsite engineers can't resolve the issue, so demand an immediate replacement or a full refund.

    Isn't life wonderful.
     
  15. miika

    miika
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    I have absolutely no clue what Elonex (or Artisan) is but if Toshiba truly has fixed this DVI-problem in their new devices you might be in luck to get a working one if you demand a replacement. On the other hand, you never know. I'm quite sure they will not give you a full refund since they never promised the DVI-port will be working with PCs! People have told that the DVI-port works finely with DVD-players etc. which are not so demanding about the EDID code (they just send the signal to the Tosh and that's it).

    Like I have told, I'm quite happy with my setup right now. My EDID-bypasser works and I'm watching digital TV (DVB) using a PC-DVB-card and 720p resolution through the DVI :) The image quality on my 27WL46 is excellent through DVI if compared to VGA.
     
  16. kolabere

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    The "Artisan LX" is a Windows MCE 2005 PC produced by Elonex.

    I had a senior technician from Toshiba head office contact me directly yesterday confirming that I should have DVI and therefore the set needs to be replaced by the retailer. Not as easy as you might think. I purchaed the set from pixmania.co.uk, whose parent is French and the set comes from Toshiba France not UK. So, what Toshiba UK technicians say is irrelevant - it has to go back to France for their technicians to review it, and that might take several weeks :mad: .

    I will try to get a full refund rather than replacement :rolleyes: and start all over again to find an LCD to go with the Artisan and TEAC PowerMax2000, in the mean time I have to work out how to connect an old Philips 21/22" CRT set to the PC.
     
  17. nwhome

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    I bought a 27wl46 a couple of weeks ago and have also found a few issues with the pc inputs.

    DVI:
    I quickly found that the DVI input is limited to 1024x720 but maybe DVI-detective or miika's home build provides an effective solution.

    DSub:
    For some reason I am unable to achieve 1:1 mapping via DSub at 1280x720. I appear to be able to achieve 1:1 for horizontal resolutions less than 1280 (eg 1024x720, 1152x720 with black borders as expected). However, at 1280x720 the desktop image is compressed in the horizontal plane with an apparent resolution more like ~800x720. Interestingly, I do get 1:1 for the horizontal resolution of 1280 when the vertical resolution greater than 720 (eg 1280x1024 - full desktop not visible vertically as expected).

    I have tried a Radeon All In Wonder and Radeon 9200, which both achieve the same results.

    Ideas on what might be happening with the DSub input would be appreciated. Also, could someone explain what the Radeon driver option 'Force 720p' actually does?

    Thanks
     
  18. miika

    miika
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    (Might you be speaking of 1024x768?) If your graphics card is a Radeon, you weren't using the ATI drivers but instead Windows drivers? Or how did you manage to get a picture after Windows logo? The usual case with Radeons is that the DVI-port closes after Windows logo with 27WL46..
    That's strange. There should be no problems with DSub in 27WL46. At least on my computer (Radeon 9500SE) I had no problems setting the 720p (1280x720) via DSub. Are you using the latest ATI drivers?
    I guess you tried it but didn't work? (720p is the progressive (non-interlaced) resolution 1280x720, the native in 27WL46) The "Force 720p" forces the 1280x720 without caring if the display supports the resolution (or more specifically, if 720p is not defined in the EDID of the display).
     
  19. nwhome

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    I should be running the CATALYST 5.4 driver but can't check until Monday. I ran the install specifically because 1280x720 wasn't available in the previous version that I was running. I guess it's conceivable that Windows chose its own driver when I rebooted...?


    This may be a daft question but can't you use force 720p via DVI?
     
  20. miika

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    Well, the whole problem is that ATI's driver shuts down the DVI-port after Windows logo (when booting) in older 27WL46:s. It's really hard to enable 720p if you can't see a thing ;)

    Like I stated previously, it might be that Toshiba has done something to correct this problem in new devices. Like you said, you bought yours only a couple of weeks ago. You might have one of these new devices (this would explain how you managed to get a working resolution in Windows with ATI's drivers). Judging by what you are telling, it seems that Toshiba hasn't done a very good job if you are having that big difficulties..

    If you have the time, please download EnTechs (www.entechtaiwan.com) Moninfo-utility and paste the raw EDID (the program reports it) here when using DVI. This would shed some light on whether you have a new version of the 27WL46 or not.
     
  21. nwhome

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    Well I'm definitely running the ATI driver so there may have been a mod on more recent models. I've attached the EDID for both the DSub and DVI inputs.

    One error in a previous post: DVI is limited to a maximum resolution of 1024x760 and not 1024x720 as stated.
     

    Attached Files:

  22. nwhome

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    Miika

    For some reason your bianry EDID doesn't look right when I view it through a bianry reader. Could you post the txt of for your raw EDID?

    Thanks
     
  23. miika

    miika
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    I don't know what you mean exactly by a binary(bianry?) editor, but you should use a hex-editor to see the 128 byte sequence in my file. In linux, use e.g. command "hexedit" and in Windows download one for example from http://rhack.sourceforge.net/

    As for the EDIDs you pasted..How ironic.
    While the engineers at Toshiba could have just modified the EDID from the D-SUB (like I did, only two bytes need changing), they seem to have written a new totally useless EDID. As you can see from your DVI-D file, the EDID says that the best resolution supported is 1024 wide, so no 1280x720 for you. It even states that the size of the display is 44" and the recommended resolution is 848x480 :rolleyes:

    So, with new devices, you get a picture in ATIs also, but can't enable the native resolution! :lease: :suicide:

    I suggest one of us takes 10 kilograms of TNT and heads for the Tosh headquarters..Seriously, how can they be so dumb?? I will immediately e-mail the guy from Toshiba who claimed that this problem has been solved in new devices and give him some feedback. I just have a feeling he's not going to reply to me.
     
  24. kolabere

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    Miika,

    This is definitely not recommended, since it might cause some spook at GCHQ to spill his coffee and doughnuts :eek: [sorry pun for locals only].

    Who, where, what is this 'guy' from Toshiba?

    I am now in the situation of having exhausted Toshiba (UK)'s technical support - including on-site visits - they have suggested that I pursue the mater with the retailer - Pixmania. Who, being French aren't interested in the fact that Toshiba (UK) have said this television is defective, want to send it to Toshiba (France) to tell them that it is . . defective :mad: .

    Don't you just love all that entente cordiale and brothers in Europe now ;) .
     
  25. miika

    miika
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    Well, he seems to be a Mr. Dean Morledge from Toshiba helpdesk, email-address
    cp-toshiba.helpdesk@toshiba-tiu.co.uk. Feel free to send all your spam to him.
    :spam:
    That's just crazy. Since it's Friday, I'm off for a :beer:
     
  26. kolabere

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    I've had some truely useless correspondance from this guy too.
     
  27. nwhome

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    I wasn't sure what the *.bin file was so I guessed binary. I've got a hex editor now so things are a little clearer. (Also found the spell check button so hopefully I'll be able to catch those typos.)

    Has anyone tried re-programming the EDID using ddcw (EDID writer from JGene's problem EDID page)? I won't be able to do anything with it until Monday night now but will update with results...
     
  28. miika

    miika
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    As stated by the EnTech people, the EDID writer was designed for a very specific segment of customers. It might work if you have a NVIDIA-based card and the EEPROM in your TV is not hardware write-protected. If you give it a try, please tell us the outcome.

    According to some rumours, there is a more general EDID-writing software under development.
     
  29. peahead

    peahead
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    Hi

    i have a sagem 27" lcd tv which has a native resolution of 1280x720 which i have connected to my pc by the vga input i can run the screen at its native resolution fine when connected this way however when doing the same thing through the dvi input the windows desktop goes of the screen and cant see the start menu properly why does it fit when useing the the vga input but not the dvi input.

    here is some info on my monitor.

    Monitor
    Windows description......... SGM Monitor
    Manufacturer description.... AXIUM HD-L27
    Manufacturer................ SGM
    ————————————————————————————
    Plug and Play ID............ SGM0002
    Serial number............... 2920 (145202920)
    EDID data source............ I2C bus (real-time)
    ————————————————————————————
    Manufacture date............ 2004, ISO week 52
    EDID revision............... 1.3
    Display type and signal..... Analog 0.700,0.000 (0.7V p-p)
    Sync input support.......... Separate
    Screen size................. 570 x 340 mm (~28")
    Power management............ n/a

    Color characteristics
    Display gamma............... 1.20
    Red chromaticity............ Rx 0.640 - Ry 0.330
    Green chromaticity.......... Gx 0.271 - Gy 0.600
    Blue chromaticity........... Bx 0.146 - By 0.071
    White point (default)....... Wx 0.285 - Wy 0.294

    Timing characteristics
    VESA GTF support............ Supported
    Horizontal scan range....... 27-61kHz
    Vertical scan range......... 49-86Hz
    Video bandwidth............. 90MHz
    Extension blocks............ 1
    Timing recommendation #1.... 1280x720 at 50Hz
    Modeline................ "1280x720" 74.250 1280 1720 1760 1980 720 741 746 750 +hsync +vsync

    Standard timings supported
    640 x 480 at 60Hz - IBM VGA
    640 x 480 at 67Hz - Mac II
    640 x 480 at 72Hz - VESA
    640 x 480 at 75Hz - VESA
    640 x 480 at 85Hz - VESA
    720 x 400 at 70Hz - IBM VGA
    800 x 600 at 60Hz - VESA
    800 x 600 at 72Hz - VESA
    800 x 600 at 75Hz - VESA
    800 x 600 at 85Hz - VESA
    1024 x 768 at 60Hz - VESA
    1024 x 768 at 70Hz - VESA
    1024 x 768 at 75Hz - VESA
    1024 x 768 at 85Hz - VESA
    1280 x 720 at 50Hz - SGM
    1280 x 720 at 60Hz - VESA
    1280 x 1024 at 60Hz - VESA
    1280 x 1024 at 75Hz - VESA

    Raw EDID base
    00: 00 FF FF FF FF FF FF 00 4C ED 02 00 68 0B 00 00
    10: 34 0E 01 03 68 39 22 14 0F E6 91 A3 54 45 99 25
    20: 12 49 4B BD CF 00 31 59 45 59 81 80 81 C0 61 59
    30: 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 1D 00 BC 52 D0 1E 20 B8 28
    40: 55 40 C4 8E 21 00 00 1E 00 00 00 FC 00 41 58 49
    50: 55 4D 20 48 44 2D 4C 32 37 0A 00 00 00 FD 00 31
    60: 56 1B 3D 09 00 0A 20 20 20 20 20 20 00 00 00 FE
    70: 00 32 35 31 36 38 31 39 39 2D 37 0A 20 20 01 02

    Raw EDID extension (reserved)
    00: 00 FF FF FF FF FF FF 00 4C ED 02 00 68 0B 00 00
    10: 34 0E 01 03 68 39 22 14 0F E6 91 A3 54 45 99 25
    20: 12 49 4B BD CF 00 31 59 45 59 81 80 81 C0 61 59
    30: 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 1D 00 BC 52 D0 1E 20 B8 28
    40: 55 40 C4 8E 21 00 00 1E 00 00 00 FC 00 41 58 49
    50: 55 4D 20 48 44 2D 4C 32 37 0A 00 00 00 FD 00 31
    60: 56 1B 3D 09 00 0A 20 20 20 20 20 20 00 00 00 FE
    70: 00 32 35 31 36 38 31 39 39 2D 37 0A 20 20 01 02

    EIA/CEA-861 Information
    Revision number............. 255
    DTV underscan............... Supported
    Basic audio................. Supported
    YCbCr 4:4:4................. Supported
    YCbCr 4:2:2................. Supported
    Native formats supported.... 15
    DTV formats supported....... 15

    CE standard timings supported
    Reserved (Native)
    Reserved (Native)
    Reserved
    Reserved
    Reserved (Native)
    720 x 480p at 59.94/60Hz (4:3) - EDTV
    Reserved
    Reserved
    2880 x 480i at 59.94/60Hz (16:9) - Console
    Reserved
    Reserved
    Reserved
    1440 x 480p at 59.94/60Hz (4:3) - DVD
    640 x 480p at 59.94/60Hz (4:3) - Default
    720 x 480p at 59.94/60Hz (16:9) - EDTV

    Display adapter
    Adapter description......... Auxiliary port
    Adapter device ID........... 0x004510DE
    Display settings............ n/a
    :confused:
     
  30. miika

    miika
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Messages:
    23
    Products Owned:
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    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Tampere, Finland (EU)
    Ratings:
    +1
    Welcome to the club. Your problem is exactly similar to ours. Blame the manufacturer for not providing a proper EDID for your DVI-port.
     

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