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pb10-isd vs velodyne spl-1000 series II

Discussion in 'Subwoofers' started by Cooch, Nov 1, 2004.

  1. Cooch

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    i have been comparing these 2 subs. is the spl-1000 series II any better than the pb10-isd? if so, is it worth the price difference? i do like the size of the velodyne, but i do value quality first. opinions please? thanks
     
  2. Ian J

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    The SVS PB-10 is only just starting to roll out and the first deliveries to the UK are currently awaiting customs clearance so we won't know for sure until the end of the week.

    If the written specs plus the odd one or two reviews so far published are anything to go by the SVS should play deeper and cleaner than the SPL1000 so if sound quality is your only criterion the SVS should be the one to go for.
     
  3. Cooch

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    thanks, i was thinking the same thing. sound quality is 1st, but if the spl1000 was close to the pb 10 i'd have to consider it. i'd prefer small, but not to sacrifice sound quality. guess i'll have to wait and see.
     
  4. Dfour

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    If you want small with good clean bass output then look no further then the BK XLS200 especially as it now comes in wood veneers at £275 from www.bkelec.com
     
  5. Dazed

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    If you're using the sub for music you might also consider the group delay comparison between the two subs. Sealed subs usually fair much better in terms of this often ignored but very important characteristic.

    I don't fully understand the whole concept of group delay, if one of the more techno literate forum contributors could explain it in laymens terms I'd be very greatful. As I understand it it's the difference between "fast" and "slow" bass, the faster the better and the less the group delay (?)
     
  6. Kazman

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    I believe the KEF PSW2500 has this group delay feature, with its music and movie settings. I could be wrong though. And, to be honest, at modest volumes, it is difficult to tell the difference. Only at higher volumes can you tell any major differences.

    But, it might be using a different system altogether and not Group Delay. :confused:
     
  7. Ian J

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    I think that we are into the realms of hair splitting here.

    Group Delay can be thought of as the time it takes the subwoofer to produce sound…after it has received the input signal. All the studies I have seen indicate GD isn’t audible unless you are over 50ms (when talking about bass frequencies).

    None of the SVS's are even remotely close to that.
     
  8. General Skanky

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    They are two different types of sub.

    How they sound will be very different.

    The SVS has already had glowing reviews appear and it seems to do very well.

    The spl is a sealed, compact and powerful sub designed with size in mind.

    Personally, I bought a spl 1000 as it suited my needs perfectly. The SVS is a much larger sub that may or may not sound better, but I just couldn't live with it.

    How big is your budget?

    I ask as another alternative would be the compact beastie from Sunfire. 2700w amp on board but also a lot more expensive. Goes deep and does it well.
     
  9. Nimby

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    Not according to those who know something about these things. It is being discussed elsewhere at this very moment. It doesn't go very deep, rolls off rapidly and has wodges of distortion. The graphs of its performance in comparison with others were posted on another forum.
    But don't quote me. I'm only passing on what I've just read. :devil:

    Interestingly the Sunfire was the owner's reference subwoofer for a review which questioned the sound quality of the PB10-ISD for the first time in any review or listening session. This review is now considered a bit "iffy". :blush:

    You were right about size though General. The SVS PB10-ISD is larger than the other subs you mentioned. Thats probably why it works so well. But I would say that, wouldn't I? :clown:

    Regards
    Nimby
     
  10. Tom Vodhanel

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    Hi guys,

    There are really no set standards for measuring something like group delay...so I think you'll find comments from manufacturers to vary widely about it and its importance. Tom Nousaine has seen the data from several tests on the audibility of GD and from his interpretation of the data...you would need in excess of 50ms of delay <50hz for it to reach the minimum threshold of audibility.

    Tom Nousaine was asked about transient response and group delay and said this...

    """This is exactly right. Therefore the system with the flattest frequency response will exhibit the best transient response and the lowest group delay. Al Foster of the Boston Audio Society performed an experiment a couple years ago by applying a delay line to a subwoofer with a 100 Hz crossover. He found that 100 mSec was the amount of delay required to reach the threshold of audibility.

    Dave Clark also inserted an all pass filter at 2 kHZ into a system and found that 2000 degrees of phase shift was at the threshold of audibility with program material. Later he said that he has trained himself to reliably hear about 1500 degrees (at 2 kHz).

    Group delay is one of those things that people like to talk about when they find themselves unable to make real sound quality improvements IMO :)

    The key elements to subwoofer performance is be flat, low and loud. When you improve any of these these things you improve performance. Noodling around with group delay is best left to those who can't do those three key things"""


    All of the SVs have well under 50ms(more like 10-20ms) of GD in thier intended operating bandwidths.

    Tom V.
     
  11. Tom Vodhanel

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    >>>Interestingly the Sunfire was the owner's reference subwoofer for a review which questioned the sound quality of the PB10-ISD for the first time in any review or listening session. This review is now considered a bit "iffy".<<<


    All, please remember. *COF* doesn't claim to be a professional reviewer. He just gave his honest opinion about one of our products after we asked if he would like to take a look-see at it. We choose him because based on his extensive postings at the SoundVision forum...we frankly felt he would represent an *extremely* tough test for our new PB10. While I might debate how audible "panel decay" measured down below 40dB might be...I think his overall efforts were well done. So please, keep his review "capabilities" in contest here. He did us a favor by putting our product thru such tough paces..:)

    Tom V.
    SVS
     
  12. General Skanky

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    Oh well. Scrub the Sunfire then. :blush:

    The moral as always really is to demo.

    Nice get out clause there. :laugh:
     
  13. Cooch

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    well, that questionable review does scare me, as well as no internal bracing. guess i gotta hear for myself.
     
  14. samhain

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    There is build quality and sound quality. So I am glad you clarified this. Any velodyne I have had the pleasure of reviewing has exemplary build quality, so that's the first thing.

    The pb10-isd seems to do things most other 10" and greater subs can't do but it's bl00dy huge. You must have been thinking about the SPL for a reason and perhaps primarily a 10" smallish sub is what you are after. If that's the case then perhaps the SVS needs to be looked at again, so that it fits your purpose.

    Don't get carried away with the press. If you want the performance and can handle it's size then the pb10-isd on paper wins hands down, but you have to be sure it's what you are really after.
     
  15. Cooch

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    you said it, "the pb10-isd on paper wins hands down". i can put up with the hugeness if it's the better performer. thanks for your input
     
  16. Ian J

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    Let's not get carried away with the "bloody hugeness" of the PB-10 as at 15" wide x 18" high x 21" deep it is a good two to three inches smaller in each direction than samhain's own sub which by his own definition must be "bloody gigantic" :D
     
  17. samhain

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    LOL Thanks for that Ian :p It is big, but it has a 15" driver after all, so it's actually proportionatly better designed than the pb10's 10" driver cabinet.

    I think it's cabinet size is a big part of it's sheer performance, not to mention a kick a$$ driver SVS have put it in.
     
  18. Tom Vodhanel

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    Hi all,

    The enclosure volume is most definitely a large reason why the PB10 extends so deep at its price point. But larger enclosures do cost quite a bit more too. Compared to some of the "tiny cube" enclosures mentioned...you will be looking at 3-4x the cost to manufacturer for an enclosure the size of the PB10.

    We just ran a linearX/LMS check on the GD of the PB10 down to 25hz. Group delay was <10ms down thru the 30hz range...rising to about 12-14ms at 25hz. By most accounts, this is very,very low. Most certainly below anyone's claims of audibility.

    Tom V.
     
  19. gazzerr

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    Tom,


    Are we ever going to see a smaller SVS - something akin to the Rel Studio or MJ Reference subs? I like the performance but they are just too big !!
     
  20. Nimby

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    The potential exists for a 10" driver cylinder of course. :)

    Say 12" diameter x 35" high to roughly match the volume of PB10-ISD.

    Would that be a desirable choice or would a box always be more popular?

    It would be a small scale model of the usual 16" diameter cylinders.

    If the PB10 driver was slipped straight into the standard 16" tube. We'd be looking at a rather modest 20" high enclosure. An interesting comparison.

    Nimby
     
  21. General Skanky

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    Just asking, but does the enclosure size of the SVS not contribute directly to its performance? So, without the larger box it would be less able?
     
  22. Nimby

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    Tom V of SVS emphasised (in his post just above) that the size of the enclosure was a very important part of its performance. :)

    I think it is fair to say that SVS uses optimum sized enclosures with simple reflex enclosures to obtain their performance. But closes one eye to domestic acceptability in smaller UK homes. US homes are often larger and more often open plan. The US is obviously by far their largest market.

    Reducing the size of the enclosure without doing anything else must increase distortion, reduce output and limit 'bottom end' frequency response extension.

    Other manufacturers usually choose alternative electronic methods to compensate for their rather smaller boxes.

    Including bass boost. Which requires much larger amplifiers to maintain a flat and deep frequency response. While servo control is a way of keeping distortion within pre-set limits.

    This emphasis on size gets limited sympathy from me. I look round and see a TV that is 20 times the volume of the owner's subwoofer. The floorstanders make a much larger target for the critical partner's eye than any subwoofer except the very largest. When we start talking about sideboards, display cabinets and the dining table and chairs. Then their volume vastly exceeds almost any subwoofer on the planet.

    By all means make yourself aware of the size of SVS subwoofers before considering purchase. But ask yourself and your partner why this size is such a problem for you. Is it simply because it is a subwoofer and not a useful piece of furniture? Then define useful. :devil:

    Nimby
     
  23. General Skanky

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    Fair points. Reread the above posts. Missed Tom's statements. Sorry.

    But I have to disagree a bit.

    If we simply accepted that everything came in a big box, then we'd not be able to move. That's why my dining room table isn't 10 feet long.

    So anything that can be shrunk whilst maintaining performance surely has to be a good thing?

    Yes a TV is big (for example), but that's why things like plasma etc are so popular, less of an overall footprint and can be mounted out of the way.

    Ok, so the SVS isn't titanic in proportion, but it does contribute to the 'big box' syndrome which here in the UK is not as easy to accommodate.

    Having owned big subs in the past, I can say that with my new little one, our living room is more liveable, if that's the right word, as it just can't be a dedicated room which can have anything we want in it.

    I know the SVS is a good sub.

    However, the fact remains that even accounting for the quality of the driver, cost savings and how they are manufatured with the methods SVS use, a major factor to its performance is down to the fact it is a big box and how it's implemented.

    I know you pay more for a sub like the one I bought, but it fits in much better with what I want in my room.

    So overall, the sound from the SVS imho is at the expense of other factors.

    I'd argue it'd be a lot more difficult for anyone to make a good budget sub without he help of copious amounts of air.

    Look at the Velodyne DD10. Expensive I know by the time it retails in the UK, but it can certainly shift air. That's the way forward for SVS surely?


    (BTW, I'm typing here helped with a fair bit of Bacardi, so I hope it all reads ok. :) )
     
  24. Ian J

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    Of course you are correct as there is no such thing as a small SVS but they aim for a different market. Many people don't want a large subwoofer in their living room and will happily pay £2,100 for a diminutive DD-10 that can't be seen but other people aren't quite so worried and would prefer to pay £650 for a large cylinder that performs to the same standard but can't be hidden quite so easily.

    I know that you live in the back end of beyond but you really should try and grab a listen to an SVS as they are a revelation for the price. They aren't everyone's cup of tea due to the size but they are absolutely astounding value for the cost.

    I have never seen so much of a furore when a new subwoofer has hit the market as when SVS announced the PB-10 and that is before anyone had actually heard it. There are a lot of very worried manufacturers out there at the moment and once the PB-10 production is in full flow and the customers start feeding back their impressions, that worry will increase dramatically.
     
  25. samhain

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    Very kind of you to drop in Tom and thanks for confirming my view that box size is important. I have been designing boxes for years (for personal use) and know this to be a factor.

    When I say it is big, it is not with disrespect or intent to rubbish your product. On the contrary, you have done remarkably well on this and I congratulate you. I just wish those 'others' who are so sensitive on anything that sounds like a criticism should just chill out and relax, and believe someone elses point of view. I believe the pb10 to be huge for a 10" sub, it is a monster sub, no question and the port does make the box size unusually big for a 10". It is something for potential buyers to consider when being blinded by some of those hyping it up beyond recognition.

    For those who don't care about size then they should ofcourse consider this very sub, although I can't help thinking they might prefer a 12" or even a 15" using the pb10 manufacturing techniques !!

    Good luck.

    Stu
     
  26. Tom Vodhanel

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    Hi all,

    We've been working on a "small" product lineup for well over a year now. I'd say we reached the 95% solution a few months back. Unfortunately, it has taken a lot longer than hoped to get from 95% to 100%.


    >>>Look at the Velodyne DD10. Expensive I know by the time it retails in the UK, but it can certainly shift air. That's the way forward for SVS surely?<<<


    It all depends on the performance trade offs you are willing to make for the tiny enclosure. For example, what if you could get the same extension/headroom...for half the price...if you went from a 10" cube to a 14" cube? Or what if you could get the same...for a 1/4 of the price...if you went from a 10" cube to a 16" cube? How about an 1/8th of the price...if you went to say...a 18" cube(or the like). Thosae examples probably represent a fairly accurate cross section of reality. Some folks have a lot of money, but little space. Some don't mind the larger enclosure...if it saves them so much money. Some are in the middle.


    >>> I believe the pb10 to be huge for a 10" sub, it is a monster sub, no question and the port does make the box size unusually big for a 10". It is something for potential buyers to consider when being blinded by some of those hyping it up beyond recognition.<<<


    Instead of considering it a "box size/driver size" issue...I would think it more accurate to consider it a "box size/performance/price" issue. At least the latter is the way we tend to look at new designs on this end.

    Tom V.
    SVS

    Tom V.
     
  27. General Skanky

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    "I know that you live in the back end of beyond"

    :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

    You don't want to be straying from the path around here.

    We all own copies of Deliverance and Wrong Turn. :)


    "We've been working on a "small" product lineup for well over a year now"

    Now that will be interesting. Good to know.
     
  28. Nimby

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    Okay Stu. :)

    Let's cut the crap. No hype. No excuses. No rumours. No instincts or gut feelings. Let's get dirty. Let's get real. :D

    Name the subs that you know closely match the PB10-ISD on reviewed performance. No other parameters are of interest:

    We're looking for contenders with a 20-100+ Hz (+/-1dB) response, a minimum 100dB below 25Hz capability with very low measured distortion.

    Now list your subs in retail price order. :smashin:

    Thanks
    Nimby :)
     
  29. samhain

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    My sentiments exactly ;)

    For a 10" none that I can think off :) at least for the moment ;)
     
  30. Nimby

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    Ah. But I deliberately left out the driver size. ;)

    Nimby
     

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