Question PB-4000 question and other info needed

Discussion in 'Subwoofers' started by Monkey303, Jul 12, 2018.

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    1. Monkey303

      Monkey303
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      Hi,

      I currently have an XXLS400 which i've been very happy with, but I have a touch of upgrade-itis and so am wondering about a new sub and the SVS PB-4000 ticks all the boxes, apart from, it is a few CM too long/deep. The width and height are fine, but it's going to stick out like a sore thumb in our not too big living room (3.5m x 4m + bay window of 75cm x 80cm), 2.4m ceilings and two door openings.

      I had a few problems positioning the XXLS400 when I first got it, there's some real dead spots in this room which result in not being able to hear much bass at all when in the room sat down, but when you leave the room, the upstairs of the house would be getting it all. Anyway, I finally found a spot for it and it sounds pretty good, but I've always felt it lacks a bit of slam for music and low end for movies, which is why i started looking for something else.

      So, the PB-4000, does it play nicely if it is side on to the room with the driver facing inwards towards the left side of the centre speaker? That's about the only way my room could accomodate it (side on), but there are a few choices of position for it like that. Would the same dead spots be in the same place for a different sub? Sorry if that's a silly question, but I'm just trying to get as much info as possible before I start!

      Finally, where would be the best place to get a good deal on the PB-4000, looking to buy in just under a month's time?

      Also open to other ideas if you think my idea is terrible or massive overkill for my room etc! :D

      The rest of the system is:

      B&W 685 S2
      B&W HTM62 S2
      Yamaha RX-A1050
      Synology Nas

      Thanks muchly.
       
    2. fatboy frank

      fatboy frank
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      Have you had a look at sub's from other manufacturers like XTZ, PSA or any of the newer BK models ? You get a lot more for your money than with SVS in my opinion.
       
    3. Monkey303

      Monkey303
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      I hadn't looked at those as I hadn't heard of them before, I had an SVS PB-10 ISD a good few years back and it was pretty good, which was why I was looking at SVS, that and the PB-4000 seems to get great user feedback. I will have a look at the brands you mention and come back later, thanks, much appreciated :thumbsup:
       
    4. fatboy frank

      fatboy frank
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    5. Monkey303

      Monkey303
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      Thanks, I've had a look at PSA and they only have two on their website (edit, just seen your link above, there must be 2 websites, I'll check the other now), both look to be sealed units, so not really what I'm looking for, but you do get a lot for your money!

      Also looked at the XTZ but nothing on there over 12". Thanks for the suggestions.

      I did find the Arandel Subwoofer 3 quite interesting. Haven't heard of those either, though!
       
    6. fatboy frank

      fatboy frank
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      PSA do ported Subs too: https://www.powersoundaudio.eu/
      Try their US Site, i've linked to their ported subs, but again speak to Ricky and he can advise you, or when you are on their US site, select the chat function and speak to Tom Vodhanel (The owner and Manufacturer of PSA) He was previously the V in SVS, so lots of experience with subs and a very honest and straight talking bloke too.
      Vented Subwoofers - Power Sound Audio

      Arendal are very highly regarded, they are relatively new in the speaker and subwoofer market, but have been around for years as Lsound, and went into the manufacturing their own brand of speakers a couple of years ago now.
      I wouldn't be put off by the XTZ not being bigger than 12", the 12.17 is pretty good and you could probably get 2 for the price of a PB-4000, if dual Subs are an option, they certainly give you more flexibility with placement and the ability to counteract room nulls.

      The SVS PB-4000 at £2,249 is a lot of money, i'd certainly be looking at spending a lot less than that, and to be honest don't think you'll find any with significant savings as they are relatively new. The XTZ 12.17 is about £600 you could almost get 4 of them for the same money as the SVS :D
       
      Last edited: Jul 13, 2018
    7. fatboy frank

      fatboy frank
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      An interesting read/interview with Tom a number of years ago now, but still relevant, especially the issue of "ported vs sealed" Tom Vodhanel, President, Power Sound Audio
      I am currently waiting on my new Sub's to be delivered, dual PSA S1811's (sealed 18") my previous Sub's were dual XTZ 1X12's which are slot ported and can be run as ported or sealed. There was a lot of talk many years ago that sealed Sub's were only good for music and ported was for movies, as a general rule a sealed sub is faster than a ported one and no issues with port chuff/noise around the port tuning freq. Sealed are a lot more compact than ported, so you could easily go for a bigger driver than you would otherwise have with a ported design. As an example the S1811 is a very similar size to the XTZ 1X12 .... That's an 18" vs a 12"
      PSA are currently in the process of upgrading all their amps on their current line up of Sub's, hence the lack of availability at the moment.
       
    8. Monkey303

      Monkey303
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      Thanks again, great info, much appreciated!

      Yes, I clicked your PSA link afterwards and checked out the rest of their range, the 15V and V1500 look interesting and should fit in my room, despite the bigger driver. I'm just going through the user reviews to see how it does.

      Regarding the dual subs, it's not really doable in this room, it's an odd layout and so after we've got the usual living room furiture in there, there's only 2 walls where it can go and one of them is the huge deadspot I mentioned in the OP. I do intend to get an antimode, but I'm not sure it would help with that?

      The only reason I was looking for ported was from what I'd read, the sealed subs struggle with the deepest bass? Open to anything at this stage, really, but I would like it to have plenty of grunt, whatever I end up with.
       
    9. fatboy frank

      fatboy frank
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      Sub choice is always difficult and the hardest to get right in my opinion, then you have the added issue of getting the optimum placement to get the best response in your given room, and i'm afraid that it matters very little about how much grunt you have got, if it's in the wrong place it's still going to sound rubbish. To a certain extent that's the beauty of going duals, even if positioning isn't optimal, they will be more able to counteract any room issues.

      An Antimode probably won't help with dead spots as you put it, they are good for reducing peaks but not boosting nulls, In all honesty the problems you describe are more likely to be room/positioning related and where you sit in the room, you will have big nulls half way along the walls, length and width, so sitting in a central position causes massive problems. I'm not suggesting you are sitting in the wrong position and i appreciate you have already said that positioning of the sub is limited, so in all likelihood it's a bit of a compromise.
       
    10. Monkey303

      Monkey303
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      Thanks again! OK so Nulls is the correct word for dead spots, I get it now!

      The plan was to put the new sub where the XXLS400 is now, which is pretty good, the only issue with that is if the sub is particularly deep, it's going to stick out, which was why I was asking if the PB-4000 was OK to be side on.

      I've sent an email off to PSA with all the details from this thread so I will let you know what they recommend.

      I was also curious about having a bigger sub in a smaller room, aside from the obvious cabinet size, is there any issue with having a larger sub with a larger driver in a smaller room?
       
    11. fatboy frank

      fatboy frank
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      No real issue with having a larger sub in a smaller room, the only issue is if the wife/partner will tolerate it :rotfl:
      I think a lot of people would argue that you can't have too much sub!

      Actually PSA controls are a little different from what is usually found on most sub's, they have a 'Room Size' dial, so you can adjust for the different size rooms, this might make them more suitable for your needs.

      Interested in what response you get back from PSA, did you email Ricky or Tom ?
       
    12. Monkey303

      Monkey303
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      Thanks. I emailed the contact us on their website, got a reply from Tom V within a few mins. He's recommended two sealed subs, a minimum of the S1811 and at the upper end the S3010. And for vented, he said the V1510 should give the same kind of performance as the PB-4000.

      He also said their sealed and vented share the same sound quality, but their sealed can extend deeper, but the vented can go louder providing better bang for buck.

      Something that has puzzled me slightly is him saying the sealed have greater extension. Everything I'd read said it was the other way round.

      I'll go and see what the measurements are for those and find some reviews. :thumbsup:
       
    13. fatboy frank

      fatboy frank
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      You'll have a job finding reviews of the sub's he's suggested as they are the revised/new models, however, their performance shouldn't be much different from the models they are replacing.
      The sealed go lower but the ported/vented go louder, there is a subtle difference.
       
    14. Monkey303

      Monkey303
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      Ah I see, OK thanks. I looked on the Kalibrate website but there's nothing on there, so I've emailed them to get prices and availability.
       
    15. Gasp3621

      Gasp3621
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      From the link Shane posted, Tom`s interview;

      S&V: How would you recommend an audio enthusiast decide among the three different alignments?

      TV: In a smaller room, anything under 3,000 cubic feet effective room volume, including the room space it’s open to, I usually prefer a sealed enclosure. That’s with our subs. We have fairly large enclosures, a lot of cone area, and use shallow roll offs in the deep bass. This often gives response down to the 7 to 10 Hz range with our sealed models.

      S&V: You’re able to get enough output at low frequencies even using a sealed enclosure?

      TV: Yes. A lot of big-name subs have a steep high-pass filter at 20 to 30 Hz or so, because dealers don’t want to deal with reliability issues that might come up if you’re playing a sub really loud with very low frequencies. Instead of putting that filter in, we do very stringent torture testing of our subwoofers. One test we do is play the deepest LFE [low-frequency effects] track]on a Blu-ray or DVD, the turn it up to 15 dB over reference. The overall audio presentation sounds horrible with bass calibrated so high, but this ensures that no matter who sets the subs up and where they set them up they won’t hurt them. Another aid here is the DSP capabilities in all of our amplifiers. When you can set all of the limiters, compressors, etc. in the digital domain you have a much higher degree of precision.


      Yamaha receivers are quite poor when it comes to subwoofer eq, so you definitely want to buy Antimode to get best results in your room which ever sub you buy!

      And remember there is less stuff going on under 20hz with most movies, example the "chest kick" happens much higher (~50-125hz). :) SVS says 20-36hz is the critical area with action/scifi movies, so i wouldn`t get too caught up with the ULF..

      Here is funny little comparison of S1500 & V1500 models in modest size room. It will give you idea of the size too.

      Z Review - PSA V1500 & S1500 Subwoofers
       
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