Parking outside of bay by 86 year old. Penalty but no evidence! help

depot

Well-known Member
That's such a nice thing to propose.... thank you, but I couldn't in good conscience accept.
I have the capacity to pay it myself, but its the principle of the thing that drives me bonkers and I want to challenge it if i can.

Once again, thank you for the lovely sentiment.... restores my faith in humanity slightly.
I will appeal it though!

Sorry when I’d offered to pay half the fine I’d missed this post, but a while ago I watched a driver loudly complaining to a traffic warden who’d put a ticket on his car which was parked maybe half an inch over the bays white line, my mom didn’t make it anywhere near 86 , but I used to pay for things and tell her she had won them or they were free lol, pay the fine it’s not worth putting the stress on yourself or your mom,
Please send me a pm, half the fine is well worth it.
 

Jules

Distinguished Member
OK, thanks for the replies. Some good information here.
I have appealed (written as if my mother had herself written it) and am awaiting their reply.
They say they reply with 10 days.... I'm guessing they don't rush these things to increase the chances of someone getting impatient and paying it anyway.

This is council land on the hospital grounds, so the ticket is not from a private company but the local authority, and knowing the local authority there is no doubt they use the motorist as a cash cow.

Thanks to everyone who's offered to help financially... its a very kind and compassionate gesture, but its really not necessary. As I said earlier, I have the resources to pay it on her behalf should it come to that, but hopefully the person at the council who picks up the appeal will look upon it sympathetically.

I'll keep you posted.
 

Miss Mandy

Moderator
Personally I think appealing it is the right thing. The council then need to prove that the vehicle was parked poorly and often they haven’t bothered to take the photo or the photo is poor and doesn’t prove the poor parking.
Is it also worth looking at how your mum has the car setup ie are the mirrors positioned correctly to give the appropriate view, is her seat high enough so she can see around her? Has her car got parking sensors? Might be worth seeing what can be done to assist her with parking I rather than her keep racking up parking tickets.

I know you don’t want to make this an age thing, but sadly it is something you might need to consider. It’s not uncommon for people to shrink in the upper body as they age due to the wear in the spine. You and your mum may not be aware of it happening and like many drivers of all ages she probably hasn’t checked or adjusted the setup within the car for a while particularly if she’s had the car a number of years. She could be sitting lower in the car than she used to and therefore not have as good visibility and spatial awareness around the vehicle as she used to have. It has no bearing on whether she’s a good driver or not, it’s purely a physical thing which might explain why she’s fine driving, but struggles parking. Something as simple as a cushion on the drivers seat can make a world of difference in that situation.
 

iqoniq

Well-known Member
Something I forgot to mention is possibly contacting the hospital. Something like PALS will probably be able to help, or failing that make a nuisance with yourself and the CEO (will probably be his secretary, but it works). You could possibly mention that you know someone that works for a local paper, and they'd be more than happy to do a story, just saying and all that (don't make it sound like an aggressive and explicit threat). They can actually contact the PPC and tell them to cancel it (make sure you get some paperwork from the PPC stating it has been cancelled so they can't necro it on a slow day). Normally, sympathy will be shown.

It's slightly different but, don't assume the police will side with you in a situation like this.

A person I support was recently served with a removal of goods notice by their housing association for items stored in a communal hallway. They issued a rebuttal notice. The housing association ignored this and turned up one morning to remove the items. There were no court stamped papers and the housing association staff were not court appointed bailiffs. My client peacefully attempted to stop them removing the goods and was physically assaulted in the process. The police told the housing association to leave TWICE during two phonecalls, but they refused... so two officers had to be dispatched. They immediately sided with the housing association and effectively took away the rights of my client, effectively enabling the actions of one side in a civil matter.

So don't assume the police will support you. It's quite possible they might advise you to pay the fine and attempt to get it back later through legal means if you feel it's unjustified.
I remember that and replying to it, but there's different circumstances. Your client was trying to prevent something that had been authorised, and was legal.

When it comes to little old ladies the police generally tend to have a heart, especially when it's someone who has no legal right demanding money and them refusing to leave. This essentially makes it trespass, and while still a civil offence, the police are more likely to remove the agent from the property to prevent a breach of the peace.

Makes me wonder why anyone should pay for parking on private land ever?
To be honest private carparks which are explicitly ticket on enter and pay on leaving I don't have a problem with. The only time I've had a problem was when I forgot where I'd parked in a multi-storey and ended up with the exit window timing out, and the barrier refusing to go up, and one of the guys who worked there just used an override key.

My issue is when the parking is initially free, but has some sort of limitation that is unenforceable. I've seen restrictions on going off-site, and it can cause absolute havoc when you have something like a retail park, which may be split between several different PPCs. There was one PPC that had a term where you could effectively go into a shop on the retail park, and would then have to depart the car park for two hours before coming back to go into the next. It's also classed as off site if you go into a zone which is owned by a different PPC. There's an invisible line you can cross without even realising it. That's not to mention that confining someone to a certain zone without cause, other than you want to slap a speculative invoice on them, is probably illegal anyway.

If I've overstayed at a car park that's free for the first 2 hours, and then £5 per hour or part thereof after, then send me the invoice for the loss. I don't mind paying it, because it's just and fair, and even add a quid on for the post. I'm unlikely to argue over whether there was loss or whether the PPC has the right to claim on the landholders behalf.

Don't say that parking is free and then send me a bill for £50 (or £100 if not paid within 14 days) because I overstayed by 10 minutes when it was Xmas and there was a huge queue on exit. That was slapped down as a "goodwill gesture" when I sent them the video from my dashcam (at least them expediting the matter meant it hadn't been overwritten) showing I was queueing to get out at the time, and asked what the probability was of a judge siding with them given the evidence.
 

noiseboy72

Distinguished Member
Let's be honest, bad parking is not limited to the elderly. Hell, my 21 year old daughter avoids parking in busy car parks like the plague and sends me proud photos when she manages to park her little Audi A1 successfully!

Although I disagree with some comments on here regarding what you can and cannot do on private land (If it is connected to the highway in a manner such that the public have been granted access, then rules around insurance and dangerous driving still apply), parking control is still poorly enforced in many circumstances and is simply a money making venture with little thought to customer service.

With regard to the specific allegation of parking over the lines, did the action prevent another space from being used - or did it make it harder for another car park user to get back into their car? Don't forget that many other visitors to the hospital may also have mobility issues and may need all the space they can get around their car as well. If that was the case, then a penalty is probably valid.

I agree that POPLA and the other private appeals services are not worth dealing with. Insist on dealing with the landlord or landowner in the first instance and never volunteer any personal information. A throwaway email address is good for this - "[email protected]" or similar...
 

LexDiamond

Active Member
Just a thought, as this happened to me and I got into an argument with someone about it, maybe your mum parked fine by reference to the car next to so thinks she is in the right but the other car was straddling two bays which ended up with her doing the same.

Hope the appeal goes well.
 

nvingo

Distinguished Member
parked fine by reference to the car next to so thinks she is in the right
Or, maybe check the car park's layout, there may be triangular areas at the end of the row and if the driver only looked at the front and side of the car it may have lined up perfectly with two sides. Quite possible if there was a shortage of spaces.
 

Jules

Distinguished Member
Here's the update. The parking fine still stands, the appeal has been rejected. Here's what they have to say:

"We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

You were issued a PCN because your vehicle was not parked within a marked bay, all four wheels must be within the bay markings. You are not allowed to park like this even if you have paid to park, are displaying an item correctly (for example a permit, Pay & Display ticket or disabled badge) or other cars have not left you enough room. Although one incorrectly parked car can make the next space too small for anyone else to use, we enforce the rule across both spaces. We do this to stop a knock-on effect of further cars parking incorrectly, reducing the available parking space even more.

Although I understand the difficulties you had trying to find somewhere to park, you still have to obey the parking rules. Parking pressure is high, especially in areas where there are schools, blocks of flats and households with more than one car.

Whilst I sympathise with your reason for parking in contravention as this service is audited we need to be fair and consistent at all times."


Worth a try, but from the photos they've sent, it looks like she wasn't even parked in a bay and was instead parked opposite the line of bays against a hedge. Others were parked there too...clearly due to a lack of spaces.

I'll be honest, I wouldn't have dumped my car there, but I suppose you have to ask what else is she supposed to do? The hospital needs more parking spaces.
Screen Shot 2022-06-23 at 14.13.17.png
 

noiseboy72

Distinguished Member
Is this a council car park? I assume so if the wording is Penalty Charge Notice, not Parking Charge Notice.

If so, what is the offence? I assume "Parking outside of a marked bay", but if this was on a section of highway - which can include parts of car parks, then an offence might not have been committed. It's difficult to tell from the photo, but the hatched markings are not recognisable as no waiting lines and could be construed as simply a warning marker for a high curb or similar.

Can you share a Google Maps link to the area? That would probably provide valuable information as to whether the area is a car park or highway.

With councils, there's a proscribed 3 step appeals process. The informal appeal that you have now done, which will normally pause the initial 14 day reduced payment period while it is investigated, a formal appeal, which if you lose, will make you liable for the full amount, and then an independent adjudication, which is binding on both parties. At the moment, you can continue to converse with the council informally until the payment period is up, although many will try to put you off this route by stating they will only respond once - which is not what the Road Traffic Management Act 2004 says.

I would say it's worth a bit more investigation before the reduced period is up.
 

MaryWhitehouse

Well-known Member
Appears to be parked on the 'road' opposite a line of marked bays. Making it harder for traffic to move and parked cars harder to exit the bay they are parked in as this car (and probably the one seen ahead) have narrowed the 'road'. Whilst I appreciate while you need to help here it appears like it should be a legitimate ticket and if many people saw a non-relative parked like this they'd think it was irresponsible.
 

nvingo

Distinguished Member
If so, what is the offence? I assume "Parking outside of a marked bay", but if this was on a section of highway - which can include parts of car parks, then an offence might not have been committed.
The T&Cs will state "park in marked bays only" - it's not an offence (badly worded i know) simply a contravention of the rules.
That other visitors parked the same way is what led to the OP following suit and demonstrates the car park to be oversubscribed.
The OP manoeuvre skills are not brought into question, just the insight of how to deal with there being no spaces.
In this instance, was visiting a sick acquaintance, but how would one deal with the same situation on arriving for their own medical appointment?
 

Jules

Distinguished Member
I've decided to pay it for her. I think on this occasion she's at least partially at fault.... unlike her last ticket that was a blatant scam.

But unfortunately, the outcome of this is that mum no longer feels able to visit her friend at the hospital.
I wouldn't have parked where she did, but as others have said.... what if this was your own appointment and there were no spaces?
I think you could easily form the opinion that maybe the lack of parking space is a deliberate 2 tier revenue system.... make money on the ticket and then on the fine.

I wouldn't have parked where she did, but I'm young enough to park half a mile away and walk.
For her I think this is quite upsetting as there is no real solution other than not go... and that's the part I don't like.
 

MaryWhitehouse

Well-known Member
Unfortunately parking is really hard for hospitals. With resources as poor as they are at the moment it's a very long way down the list for spending. Can they still charge in England? Here (Aberdeen) a local philanthropist's trust built a new multi storey.
 

nvingo

Distinguished Member
a deliberate 2 tier revenue system.... make money on the ticket and then on the fine.
So she bought paid for a ticket, but they didn't provide the service (no space), would it cost anything to seek a refund that they were willing to accept money from her despite having full income from those occupying all the spaces?
 

iqoniq

Well-known Member
Here's the update. The parking fine still stands, the appeal has been rejected. Here's what they have to say:

"We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

You were issued a PCN because your vehicle was not parked within a marked bay, all four wheels must be within the bay markings. You are not allowed to park like this even if you have paid to park, are displaying an item correctly (for example a permit, Pay & Display ticket or disabled badge) or other cars have not left you enough room. Although one incorrectly parked car can make the next space too small for anyone else to use, we enforce the rule across both spaces. We do this to stop a knock-on effect of further cars parking incorrectly, reducing the available parking space even more.

Although I understand the difficulties you had trying to find somewhere to park, you still have to obey the parking rules. Parking pressure is high, especially in areas where there are schools, blocks of flats and households with more than one car.

Whilst I sympathise with your reason for parking in contravention as this service is audited we need to be fair and consistent at all times."


Worth a try, but from the photos they've sent, it looks like she wasn't even parked in a bay and was instead parked opposite the line of bays against a hedge. Others were parked there too...clearly due to a lack of spaces.

I'll be honest, I wouldn't have dumped my car there, but I suppose you have to ask what else is she supposed to do? The hospital needs more parking spaces.View attachment 1714214

If that's meant to be the "evidence" photo, then it proves sod all. No number plate, or anything, unless drive has cropped it. When you appealed did you mention your mother was the driver?
 
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Storvay

Distinguished Member
So she bought paid for a ticket, but they didn't provide the service (no space), would it cost anything to seek a refund that they were willing to accept money from her despite having full income from those occupying all the spaces?
Unless it’s a Pay and Display. They’d have a very good argument to say, you parked outside of the bays and then bought a ticket. Not our problem.
 

Storvay

Distinguished Member
It’s not fair in that OP’s mum was in a bit of a bind.

Essentially though, she’s wholly at fault and needs to take this one on the chin. Everyone parking where his mum did would cause chaos, even with perfectly understandable reasons.
 

iqoniq

Well-known Member
Would that matter for council land?
It's not council land if a PPC is involved. A hospital is private land, usually owned by the trust or health authority.
 

Miss Mandy

Moderator
It's not council land if a PPC is involved. A hospital is private land, usually owned by the trust or health authority.

There isn’t a private parking company involved. It’s a council issued penalty charge notice and council owned land.
 

iqoniq

Well-known Member
There isn’t a private parking company involved. It’s a council issued penalty charge notice and council owned land.
Ah right, I missed the clarifying post, and that's why they called it a "penalty charge" (if ever you get a "penalty charge notice" from a PPC they're in serious trouble because they're not allowed to issue them - parking charge notice is fine, but not penalty). Regardless, if that's their photo which shows no real identifying marks of the car then there could still be a case of prove it and the photo would be pretty much inadmissible as evidence without the plates at least. It's probably less hassle to just pay it seeing as it's relatively legit and there has been an admission of guilt.
 

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