Parking outside of bay by 86 year old. Penalty but no evidence! help

Nexus04

Active Member
Hello again, even though the ticket was issued by the local authority there should be information on how to appeal it. I sincerley hope it all ends well. I dont reply to many threads but this subject is one that really gets to me. It may also be worth seeing if the hospital trust has any provision for discounted parking for visitors to terminally ill patients.
On another note lets applaud Rousetafarian for such a great gesture, what a top bloke! I believe in Karma and think that good gestures like that will be rewarded in one way or another.
 

Saldawop

Distinguished Member
Appeal it, stating that you ( your mum) were parked correctly. They will probably send you photographic evidence.
And as far as taking a photograph of how she was parked would not really prove anything, other than the car was parked properly at the time the photo was taken.
 

ih8mondays

Well-known Member
As above, speak to the hospital - PALS in particular (patient advice & liaison service).

I hear this forum is a good place to go for advice on council / local authority parking tickets - FightBack Forums
 

nvingo

Distinguished Member
It may also be worth seeing if the hospital trust has any provision for discounted parking for visitors to terminally ill patients.
Our hospital does a fair rate for a ticket covering seven days; it doesn't guarantee an available space nor absolve from non-compliance with the parking rules.
 

wiz

Distinguished Member

leamspaceman

Distinguished Member
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Mainly Lurking

Distinguished Member
Whoever issued the ticket must have proof the car was parked incorrectly as without it they can't prove you were in the wrong. I've never known a company who hasn't provided that proof along with the ticket but if you appeal they have to show it.

If found incorrect happy days.
If found correct and the car wasn't parked properly, added to the other parking issues this lady has had I would suggest either a smaller car, some parking lessons or maybe keeping away from actual carparks to avoid any more charges.

I know carpark companies aren't popular but they are necessary, look at it like this the carpark is private land belonging to someone, just like your own drive, you wouldn't want just anyone parking on your drive. Or the carpark has X amounts of bays bringing in X amount of revenue, people parking over 2 bays halve that revenue.
 

nvingo

Distinguished Member
Or the carpark has X amounts of bays bringing in X amount of revenue, people parking over 2 bays halve that revenue.
Everyone parking over two bays halves the revenue.
One person parking over two bays reduces that revenue by one.
I don't think the OP disclosed the model of car his mother drives but I doubt you can get much smaller than what I expect an 86 year old lady owns.
As she was entitled to use a bay reserved for disabled persons she could probably manage to park there without difficulty provided one was available.
 

ChuckMountain

Distinguished Member
If found correct and the car wasn't parked properly, added to the other parking issues this lady has had I would suggest either a smaller car, some parking lessons or maybe keeping away from actual carparks to avoid any more charges.

The first one was a misunderstanding and not really to do with how to park. If it is found to be one incidence of possible bad parking it seems a bit of a big jump to suggest parking lessons. Heck half the local town would need to be re-educated. :clap:

I would also imagine that she has a smaller car “at that age” but even she didn’t some of these bays are ridiculously small. My saloon sticks out of most spaces length wise. Wasn’t there a ruling on minimum space size recently.

Oh and you can park on somebody else’s drive and it’s only a civil matter. Well that is till it kicks off and there is a fight :eek:
 

Mainly Lurking

Distinguished Member
Heck half the local town would need to be re-educated. :clap:
parking is something I've found the vast majority need re-educating on and as it's also something that is always at a preminum it's something that does cause a lot of bad feelings and fights as you said.
I think the circumstances of this, elderly lady, visiting terminally ill person has skewed the responses and as we are in general a compassionate bunch why shouldn't it but would a chavvy scrote going to Greggs get the same 🤔 Illegally parked is illegally parked...........if of course she was, hence saying there has to be proof and if that hasn't already been made available, which is very bad practice, then appeal
 

Thug

Moderator
I do sympathise with situations like this, some parking spaces are great if you drive a smart car, but anything larger can be a struggle for some.
It can also depend on what you are parking next too also, as they may be touching the white line.

No idea what it has to do with police though.
Parking companies are private businesses who's purpose is to generate money, paid by parking tickets/fees and fines. They can employ as many people as they wish to.
The police is government and locally funded and doesn't generate money (despite popular belief, fines go to the government, not the police Christmas fund).
 

depot

Well-known Member
This is awful, and I agree with your last statement. I’d like to pay 50% of your Mum’s ‘fine’, if one of the other good members of this fine forum would offer to pay the other half……so who’s with me?

(I do appreciate that at no point was this the aim of the thread)

I’ll pay the other 50%
 

iqoniq

Well-known Member
Hello, just seen this. Look at the website for POPLA Welcome to POPLA | POPLA
This is the place for disputing parking tickets on private land, in this case the hospital. I am surprised there is not a link to this on the penalty notice. It seems strange that there is no photographic evidence with the penalty notice, but look at the site and follow the appeal process. Include as much evidence as you can explaining the circumstances and get photographic evidence from the company that issued the penalty including the name or id number of the attendant that issued the ticket and a statement from them explaining why the notice was issued. Include evidence of your own to support the appeal. I know your mum has no pictures of where she was parked etc but it is up to the parking enforcement company to prove guilt, and unless there is photographic evidence I would be surprised if the penalty could be enforced.
Also it might be beneficial writing /emailing the hospital trust to get more evidence about the company they use for parking enforcement and see if there are any similar complaints.
Hope this helps and that your mum is not too stressed and upset about this. This is one thing that really gets me riled. Given your mums and her friends age I believe they should have free parking at hospitals to visit sick friends or relatives or attend appointments.
Sorry rant over! Good luck appealing this

This is misleading. I've had council tickets parking outside a hospital (with a disabled badge), because part of it is adopted by the council, but can appear to be the hospital. My crime was overstaying an hour, it was a traffic warden that got me, and the council that got paid (I appealed and to be fair I had no real defence as it wasn't life or death so had chance to move the car, and they allowed the 50% discount to remain for 14 days from their judgement).

Popla aren't independent because they're paid for by the PPCs so it's in their interest to keep the PPCs happy. The only upside is that their decisions are legally binding for the PPC, but not the alleged offender, so if they find against a motorist they're not obliged to pay, while a PPC has to deal with it they're found against. There's also more than one appeals body depending on which organisation the PPC signs up to. If they're a member of the British Parking Association, then yes, it is Popla. If the PPC is a member of the International Parking Community, then the appeal is handled by the Independent Appeals Service.

First things first: AT NO POINT DO YOU STATE THE DRIVER WAS YOUR MOTHER! Always refer to her as the driver with no name given, and deny it was your mother. Unless they've got a clear picture of her in the car then they can't prove it. For all they know it could have been me driving. The only way they could force her to reveal who was driving is by what's known as a Norwich Pharmcal order, but there was a bit of a shake up a few years back, although I believe this is still the case. They won't got for one of these, because they're hard work and bloody expensive anyway.

Those pesky bays? They don't mean anything - they're effectively graffiti on the floor. On public roads you have to obey them, on private land they're legally unenforceable. Your mum could pull donuts in the car park and rag around at 90 mph and there's nothing they can do except tell her to leave. Speed limits, one way signs and any made up rule the land owner wants to make up are completely useless (although they sometimes do make life easier)

Do not contact the PPC, and do not give them more details (e-mail address, mobile number, etc). Your mum will get threatograms and other toilet paper from them for a bit, and keep the paper trail, but ignore. They'll eventually pass her across to the debt collection agency (next desk along) who will send more crap stating she owes money, and some of the shades of red they use are really pretty.

DCAs have no powers whatsoever. They may mention bailiffs in their letters, but they're not bailiffs. On the off chance you get a DCA that decides to doorstep, your mum should call the police if they don't leave immediately when told to. At this point your mum is perfectly allowed to let loose any large dogs she has, or even get a burly neighbour around to remove the DCA agent physically (remember: they have to be gentle, but occasionally accidents happen).

What you do need to keep an eye out for is stamped court papers. This is where it gets serious. If that happens I'd seriously recommend Consumer Action group (I'll link at the end). They'll explain what your mum needs to do, and how to do it. These guys know their stuff, even if they may disagree on finer points, so listen to their advice, do what they say, and they'll talk you through it. Most of this will be online and involve defence and evidence packs that need to be filed within a set period and whatever.

If it goes to court, remember to have it rerouted to your local courts. If you live far enough away, the PPCs usually won't turn up. I know it also depends on the judge, but they'll generally not take too kindly to hassling little old ladies (your mum needs to really work on the puppy dog eyes) for a debt that doesn't exist despite various rulings.

Whatever you do, don't pay up though, because they have no claim. There's no loss been suffered, and in the UK courts you're not allowed to go for penalties as a rule. The alleged contract is only an invitation to treat, and as there's no ability to negotiate it can't be forced (even via "if you don't like don't park"). Most of the little extras they use to bump the claim up are also considered business expenses and you can't sue someone for business expenses that would have been incurred in normal operation (they stopped doing some of them after a company dealing with "loss recovery" from shop lifters got slapped down for trying it on).

Seriously, it's just a legalised (and barely at that) scam.

 
Last edited:

leamspaceman

Distinguished Member
DCAs have no powers whatsoever. They may mention bailiffs in their letters, but they're not bailiffs. On the off chance you get a DCA that decides to doorstep, your mum should call the police if they don't leave immediately when told to.
It's slightly different but, don't assume the police will side with you in a situation like this.

A person I support was recently served with a removal of goods notice by their housing association for items stored in a communal hallway. They issued a rebuttal notice. The housing association ignored this and turned up one morning to remove the items. There were no court stamped papers and the housing association staff were not court appointed bailiffs. My client peacefully attempted to stop them removing the goods and was physically assaulted in the process. The police told the housing association to leave TWICE during two phonecalls, but they refused... so two officers had to be dispatched. They immediately sided with the housing association and effectively took away the rights of my client, effectively enabling the actions of one side in a civil matter.

So don't assume the police will support you. It's quite possible they might advise you to pay the fine and attempt to get it back later through legal means if you feel it's unjustified.
 

shodan

Distinguished Member
This is misleading. I've had council tickets parking outside a hospital (with a disabled badge), because part of it is adopted by the council, but can appear to be the hospital. My crime was overstaying an hour, it was a traffic warden that got me, and the council that got paid (I appealed and to be fair I had no real defence as it wasn't life or death so had chance to move the car, and they allowed the 50% discount to remain for 14 days from their judgement).

Popla aren't independent because they're paid for by the PPCs so it's in their interest to keep the PPCs happy. The only upside is that their decisions are legally binding for the PPC, but not the alleged offender, so if they find against a motorist they're not obliged to pay, while a PPC has to deal with it they're found against. There's also more than one appeals body depending on which organisation the PPC signs up to. If they're a member of the British Parking Association, then yes, it is Popla. If the PPC is a member of the International Parking Community, then the appeal is handled by the Independent Appeals Service.

First things first: AT NO POINT DO YOU STATE THE DRIVER WAS YOUR MOTHER! Always refer to her as the driver with no name given, and deny it was your mother. Unless they've got a clear picture of her in the car then they can't prove it. For all they know it could have been me driving. The only way they could force her to reveal who was driving is by what's known as a Norwich Pharmcal order, but there was a bit of a shake up a few years back, although I believe this is still the case. They won't got for one of these, because they're hard work and bloody expensive anyway.

Those pesky bays? They don't mean anything - they're effectively graffiti on the floor. On public roads you have to obey them, on private land they're legally unenforceable. Your mum could pull donuts in the car park and rag around at 90 mph and there's nothing they can do except tell her to leave. Speed limits, one way signs and any made up rule the land owner wants to make up are completely useless (although they sometimes do make life easier)

Do not contact the PPC, and do not give them more details (e-mail address, mobile number, etc). Your mum will get threatograms and other toilet paper from them for a bit, and keep the paper trail, but ignore. They'll eventually pass her across to the debt collection agency (next desk along) who will send more crap stating she owes money, and some of the shades of red they use are really pretty.

DCAs have no powers whatsoever. They may mention bailiffs in their letters, but they're not bailiffs. On the off chance you get a DCA that decides to doorstep, your mum should call the police if they don't leave immediately when told to. At this point your mum is perfectly allowed to let loose any large dogs she has, or even get a burly neighbour around to remove the DCA agent physically (remember: they have to be gentle, but occasionally accidents happen).

What you do need to keep an eye out for is stamped court papers. This is where it gets serious. If that happens I'd seriously recommend Consumer Action group (I'll link at the end). They'll explain what your mum needs to do, and how to do it. These guys know their stuff, even if they may disagree on finer points, so listen to their advice, do what they say, and they'll talk you through it. Most of this will be online and involve defence and evidence packs that need to be filed within a set period and whatever.

If it goes to court, remember to have it rerouted to your local courts. If you live far enough away, the PPCs usually won't turn up. I know it also depends on the judge, but they'll generally not take too kindly to hassling little old ladies (your mum needs to really work on the puppy dog eyes) for a debt that doesn't exist despite various rulings.

Whatever you do, don't pay up though, because they have no claim. There's no loss been suffered, and in the UK courts you're not allowed to go for penalties as a rule. The alleged contract is only an invitation to treat, and as there's no ability to negotiate it can't be forced (even via "if you don't like don't park"). Most of the little extras they use to bump the claim up are also considered business expenses and you can't sue someone for business expenses that would have been incurred in normal operation (they stopped doing some of them after a company dealing with "loss recovery" from shop lifters got slapped down for trying it on).

Seriously, it's just a legalised (and barely at that) scam.

Thanks for such an informative and well written post.

Makes me wonder why anyone should pay for parking on private land ever?
 

ChuckMountain

Distinguished Member
Thanks for such an informative and well written post.

Makes me wonder why anyone should pay for parking on private land ever?

The advice used to be always ignore them and they will go away.

However, they then started taking people to court as @iqoniq mentioned, and this bit is enforceable if they win. You could end up with a CCJ against you, particularly if you ignore it and don't contest it as that will rule against you automatically in that case.
 

shodan

Distinguished Member
Deleted
 
Last edited:

Nexus04

Active Member
@ iqoniq that was a great informative post. When I recieved a ticket at a hospital there was a link on the penalty notice to the Popla site and I naively thought this was the only course to appeal the ticket. There was no signage to the issuing company or address etc. I probably could have found this out via the security at the hospital eventually but appealed it through the POPLA website which was successful. I must say that if POPLA had ruled in the parking companies favour I would have searched online and taken it further as I was sure I was right. I would not have payed the fine anyway, as whatever course the parking enforcement agents took I am sure I would have won eventually
 

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