parking charge notice at supermarket...

SanPedro

Well-known Member
A friend picked up a parking charge notice at a supermarket.

Is there any way they can get out of paying the £30 charge without too much hassle. I remember there has been some discussion on the boards before about the legality of these 'charges' and whether or not the firms will pursue you for the amount.


chris
 

richard plumb

Distinguished Member
don't know.

My wife got a warning letter in the post from tesco as she'd stayed in the car park over the allotted time. Apparantly they CCTV everyone coming in and going out. They don't want people staying too long, perhaps using it to pop into town. Why they then built a pedestrian bridge to the town center I have no idea.
 

Steve.J.Davies

Well-known Member
these tickets are covered under tort - not criminal law.
They are virtually unenforceable. Check out, inter alia, the Dunlop case or hop over to pepipoo.
The companies who issue these tickets come and go, hide behind P.O box addresses (often one in Nottingham so people will think it is from the national processing center for real PCNs) and very often break the law themselves.

They call then Parking Charge Notices (PCN) so that people will confuse them with real PCNs (Penalty Charge Notices) issued by the police and traffic wardens.
It is in invoice - no more no less.
my advice is don't pay it.

What company issued this invoice/Private Parking ticket ?
 

madcyril

Active Member
What was the conditions where he parked.A few months ago I recieved a ticket for parking at Asda Trafford Park.I tend to park there and pop over the road into the Trafford Centre.Its free parking for upto 3hrs(I think).I parked at about 10am,did a little shop,returned to my car after an hour,drove to Makro,shopped there and then went home.Later that day after picking my youngest up from playgroup I went back to Asda to do a shop.When I returned to my car I had been ticketed.Despite explaining to the warden I had not been there all day he refused to cancel the ticket so I had write to the wardens head office(somewhere in Scotland)with copies of receipts proving I had shopped elsewhere and thankfully they written it off.

If he has parked there all day and cant prove otherwise he should take it on the chin and pay up.
 

Steve.J.Davies

Well-known Member
the establishment of a contract through action is a hard thing to prove.
e.g. Despite any notices or how prominent they are they have to be read ! there is established case law on this.

Different question with real parking tickets. This isn't one by the sounds of it. It is an invoice. A Bill. If (any of you) you pay unsolicited invoices without question please PM me your postal address !!

Under tort the amount billed can only be in keeping with the loss (again there is well established law on this) - for a free car park this zero. For a private (paid) car park this is the cost of coverage by ticket which is way way less than the bills these people send.
 

penno116

Novice Member
the establishment of a contract through action is a hard thing to prove.
e.g. Despite any notices or how prominent they are they have to be read ! there is established case law on this.

Different question with real parking tickets. This isn't one by the sounds of it. It is an invoice. A Bill. If (any of you) you pay unsolicited invoices without question please PM me your postal address !!

Under tort the amount billed can only be in keeping with the loss (again there is well established law on this) - for a free car park this zero. For a private (paid) car park this is the cost of coverage by ticket which is way way less than the bills these people send.

what if they clamped your vehicle in such a situation?
 

Steve.J.Davies

Well-known Member
clamping is (sadly) legal so a different question. Very old law - distress damage feasant comes into play. However it is possible to get your ransom money back when it is private clampers operating in private car parks.

Supermarkets v v unlikely to use clampers - far too many horror stories would crop up, as many regularly do, and they would end up with a huge reputational loss.

From pepipoo:-

Although clamping MAY be legal if there are prominent warning signs and the release fee is reasonable (Arthur v Anker) the driver must actually see and understand the nature of the signs, whether prominent or not (Vine v Waltham Forest). If you did not actually see the warning signs then the clamping is unlawful. There have been a number of cases won in the small claims court against clampers on this basis
 

SanPedro

Well-known Member
these tickets are covered under tort - not criminal law.
They are virtually unenforceable. Check out, inter alia, the Dunlop case or hop over to pepipoo.
The companies who issue these tickets come and go, hide behind P.O box addresses (often one in Nottingham so people will think it is from the national processing center for real PCNs) and very often break the law themselves.

They call then Parking Charge Notices (PCN) so that people will confuse them with real PCNs (Penalty Charge Notices) issued by the police and traffic wardens.
It is in invoice - no more no less.
my advice is don't pay it.

What company issued this invoice/Private Parking ticket ?

Thanks Steve

It was Euro Car Parks.

I know the supermarket in question and had never even noticed any signs till I checked around the other day. There's even one by the entrance to the store itself - but it's not the sort of thing you'd really take much notice of as you walk in. Nothing in big letters saying "WARNING - PARKING ONLY 2 HOURS". The other signs are few and far between.

The 'ticket' I was shown is in a 3 part set and looks like an official PCN. Even has the words "do not remove from the vehicle. Failure to do so is an offence" (or something like that).

The 'fine' is only £30, but they are wondering whether it will be worth the hassle of not paying for such a relatively small amount.
 

Steve.J.Davies

Well-known Member
Euro Car parks well known !!
From what you say sounds like they are breaking several laws themselves in your instance. Not for the first time is my wager...

keep the letters, don't reply. Some people have fun seeing how much expense they can get these companies to lay out on their forlorn mission to scam people. it is a percentage a game, a percentage of people just pay up !
these companies pay DVLA 2.50 gbp a pop to get your details - one of the reasons HMG does nothing about them IMV.

These companies expect the Registered Keeper to pay up - but who parked the car ? ?

After three or four letters you may well get a letter saying they are passing your 'debt' onto a collection agency. the agencies these people use often have the same address as the company - you can guess why. :)
if a debt colection agency does end up writing to you you just tell them the debt is disputed and that is the end of their involvement. debt collection agencies have no powers or authority in law.

the whole scam is schoolboyish in its level but these people prosper on the back of it. for that reason alone people everywhere should resist. So tell your friends about the scam.

visit pepipoo. Don't just pop a post in, there are answers a plenty there already (on this issue and on Euro Car Parks in particular).

Lots of people there are trying to get one of these companies to take them to court - and to get them to actually turn up on the day !

-----------------------------------
p.s. No point in having a sign by the entrance - that would after the fact of parking and a complete 'ornament'.
-----------------------------

Some people have suggested to me that it is possible to escalate the costs to the scammer company by putting 100 envelopes with the companies payment address printed on them of such a size to hold a cheque in the post over a period a week or two. Some suggest using windowed envelopes and printing 100 slips with the address of the company to effect the addressing. If the stamps fell off these envelopes the company would have to pay the best part of two quid per envelope to the post office. Greed would very likely make them pay for those envelopes to be delivered. Not sure of the legality of doing this so I do not recommend it - if anyone does suggest it to you I suggest you don't rush into it but consider carefully my text.

Some suggest looking up the Directors information and signing up their home address for all kinds of catalogues and junk mailing gumph - again think carefully about this kind of advice.

These are not methods used by the folks of pepipoo - pepipoo uses the law, it does NOT abuse it and it does not help people get out of valid speeding fines who are processed fairly and according to the law.
It is not a loophole place. It is an informative place
 

SanPedro

Well-known Member
Thanks a lot Steve :smashin:. I told my mate we should be able to get some answers on here.

BTW You seem pretty well versed in all of this? Solicitor by any chance?

Anyways... I shall ask him to study pepipoo in detail.
 

addyb

Distinguished Member
Thanks Steve

It was Euro Car Parks.

I know the supermarket in question and had never even noticed any signs till I checked around the other day. There's even one by the entrance to the store itself - but it's not the sort of thing you'd really take much notice of as you walk in. Nothing in big letters saying "WARNING - PARKING ONLY 2 HOURS". The other signs are few and far between.

The 'ticket' I was shown is in a 3 part set and looks like an official PCN. Even has the words "do not remove from the vehicle. Failure to do so is an offence" (or something like that).

The 'fine' is only £30, but they are wondering whether it will be worth the hassle of not paying for such a relatively small amount.


Funnily enough i got home to a letter from euro car parks stating that i have failed to pay the £30 fee and now if i dont reply to there letter in the next 14 days it will be passed to a debt collection agency..... Thing is ive never ever received the so called "ticket" thats described above?? :confused:

So is the advice on here to just ignore this letter?
 

Steve.J.Davies

Well-known Member
Funnily enough i got home to a letter from euro car parks stating that i have failed to pay the £30 fee and now if i dont reply to there letter in the next 14 days it will be passed to a debt collection agency..... Thing is ive never ever received the so called "ticket" thats described above?? :confused:

So is the advice on here to just ignore this letter?
yep.
visit pepipoo - a font of knowledge.
 

Bilbob

Well-known Member
The 'fine' is only £30, but they are wondering whether it will be worth the hassle of not paying for such a relatively small amount.
Oh, I wonder how many people do this?

I think I'll start sending out random letters to people asking for money. Seems to work...

They RELY on the 'easier to pay up than argue' principal for this sort of thing to work. The more that fight it, the more it will shrink, maybe even eventually disappear...
 

Steve.J.Davies

Well-known Member
Thanks a lot Steve :smashin:. I told my mate we should be able to get some answers on here.

BTW You seem pretty well versed in all of this? Solicitor by any chance?

Anyways... I shall ask him to study pepipoo in detail.

No, am IT bod. Have read pepipoo though. You will be stunned by the amount of 'poor' tickets from scammers, councils and the police. And by how the magistrates courts and the CPS treat motorists. I am trying to make time to spend a day at my local magistrates court on one of the days for dealing with motoring offenses - just to see for myself and to keep a tally of the percentage of cases where people are denied their rights and railroaded. think I have absorbed enough of the basics to be able to count non-disclosure and dual charging fiascos. Apparently a LOT of people turn up very ill-prepared...

BTW if you want the best out of pepipoo - there is a pay for members section. The money goes to run the site it is not one of these e-bay 'guaranteed letters to get you off' things.
Worth the small amount of cash in my view (no I don't help run the site). Come the day you get pinged by a dogyscope for exceeding the limit (e.g. when you are on cruise control and under the limit - and that does happen) you would have a LOT of reading to do. Knowledge is power as they say.
You don't need the pay for section to read up on private parking companies though.
 

CAS FAN

Distinguished Member
Sounds similar to a bunch of scam merchants I had the misfortune to come across! Don't want to go off topic but this sounds very similar. My situation was with a company called Cavendish Black, who claimed that i'd agreed to take out an advert for my business in their magazine and when I wouldn't pay up they passed my details onto a "Debt enforcement agency" who were basically the same company as themselves. They threatened to come round to my house and were abusive over the phone and thankfully (after appearing on watchdog) they eventually went under.

It would surprise me no end if they have gone on to set up one of these car park businesses as it sounds just like their work.
 

Steve.J.Davies

Well-known Member
sounds similar Cas Fan - but obviously even more illegal.
I remember some time ago getting what looked like an Invoice for Office furniture - think it was for 42 grand. the company was obviously sending out loads of these to largish companies hoping that they would just get sent to the Payments Dept so would get a percentage of wins. obvious scam so I phoned them up - "Its a 'mistake' please throw it away" - could feel the twitching coming down the phone line from them...

but these Private Parking Companies really are low lifes and worth battling.
 

SanPedro

Well-known Member
The numpty went off and paid it before I could get back to him with all the info :rolleyes:

Just shows how effective their tactics are. :mad:

But many thanks for all the help. At least I know what to do if it happens to me any time.
 

Steve.J.Davies

Well-known Member
arrghh !!

the more the word spreads about this scam the better.

You have two ways of dealing with it if it ever happens to you;
1) the correct (pepipoo) way
2) send your mate an invoice ! :)
 

johntheexpat

Distinguished Member
.... tesco ....

Why they then built a pedestrian bridge to the town center I have no idea.

They built the bridge so that the numpties dumb enough to go shopping in the town centre can easily get to where they should have been in the first place. Honestly how old fashioned, Town centre Shopping:rolleyes:
 

Steve.J.Davies

Well-known Member
For anyone has one of these scam invoices and hasn't had the time to trawl pepipoo than a quick link
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=22832&st=0&p=209388&#entry209388
that explains the threatening letters part of the scam - and why they are b/s

---------------------
Quote from poster
==================================================
Ignored their last letter and this morning received a "FINAL REMINDER BEFORE LEGAL ACTION" in which they state "Failure to pay the full balance outstanding within 7 days of the date of this notice could result in the balance outstanding being registered as a debt against you in the County Court. A warrant may then be issued to bailiffs to recover payment. You will also become liable for the additional fees of the County Court and the bailiff together with any legal costs and interest involved. Your ability to obtain credit in the future could be affected"
===================================================

lawyerly response:

Look I'm getting sick of Private Parking Companies using peoples ignorance of the County Court system to intimidate them.

This whole paragraph is a total misrepresentation designed to indicate that if you don't pay now, everything will be taken out of your hands and all sorts of dire things will happen. Total cods

1. Failure to pay now cannot of itself result in anything being registered against you as a debt in the County Court

2. In order for you to get a CCJ (County Court Judgement) registered against you all of the following have to take place
(a) the company concerned have to issue a claim against you
(b) you either do not enter a defence because you forget, are daft or some other reason ( in which case the Claimant will request a judgement in default) or even less likely it goes to a hearing and you lose
© you do not pay the Judgement debt within 28 days of the judgement being entered against you.

A Bailiffs warrant would only be issued if you lost and didn't pay the judgement debt as instructed by a judge.

Your credit rating would only be affected if you had a CCJ which you didn't pay

So please don't be intimidated,

BTW This does not relate to Council PCNs- different procedure
================================================
 

addyb

Distinguished Member
I got another letter last week from a "debt collecting agency" trying to collect cash for euro car parks. I told them that it was in "dispute" and im currently involving trading standards (which im not!!)

Ive been on pepipoo and had a look.

Have i to just basically keep ignoring these letters?
 

Solomon Grundy

Distinguished Member
How come the supermarkets let them patrol their car parks anyway if they are a scam? I am angry that I paid up now....and my ticket was dished out 2 years ago! If I had known it was a scam at the time I would have smacked the anorak-wearing guy in the chops!
 

Orson

Moderator
I've nothing much to add in the way of advice here, it's all pretty well documented in the previous posts, but I'm posting to add my confirmation that these do not need paying.
I was ticketed by Euro Car parks (unfairly in my opinion), and they did all the threats etc, but they will go away eventually, as they did with me.

I used to have some empathy for the the car park companies, after all, if people didn't break the rules etc, but having seen how they operate, that all went completely out of the window.
 

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