panny v pioneer- black level

Mr.D

Distinguished Member
Originally posted by Brogan
I've said my piece and you're obviously convinced you know more about photography than myself or even professionals like Galaxy so I'll leave you to it.
If you realised how flawed some of your statements were, perhaps you wouldn't be so quick to post them...
I am utterly confident I know more about photography or rather image science than Galaxy or anyone else on this thread who professes to have some experience in this field.

As for my observations being "flawed" feel free to explain to me why they are , if any of you are capable. Which you won't be because if you were you would understand the veracity of my comments in the first place.
 

Brogan

Novice Member
Originally posted by Mr.D
As for my observations being "flawed" feel free to explain to me why they are , if any of you are capable. Which you won't be because if you were you would understand the veracity of my comments in the first place.
Well as I will so obviously fail, I won't bother.
I will forever more bow to your superior knowledge on all things related to imagery.
 

cybersoga

Novice Member
I also saw the Pioneer and the Panasonic at event II (both were calibrated) and the difference wasn't as drastic as that photograph suggests, but there was some ambiant light in the room.
 

Deron

Active Member
Damn it's like a murder mystery in here...

Galaxy's pic threw me, but then I'm not very sharp and didn't pick up on the smiley.

No one has pointed out that the person who actually took the photo's and did the comparison actually prefers the pio and was sticking up for it through out.

He made a statement about the black level which I'm sure everyone knew already.

It was an interesting comparison though.
 

buns

Banned
ok then, so stoo and cybersoga disagree on what the displays looked like despite seeing the same displays calibrated by the same people and seeing them at the same time.... either there is something odd going on or else the gem of 'demo for yourself' is worth far more than we give credit.....

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cybersoga

Novice Member
I don't totally disagree with stoo, but i'm not entirely convinced with that photo either :) Personally I preferred the picture on the Panasonic.
 

cybersoga

Novice Member
I thought the difference looked more like this (Image edited so the bezel of the Panasonic is black and the picture on the Pioneer is darker, I didn't touch the picture on the Panasonic):-

 

Mr.D

Distinguished Member
I couldn't give a fig what one is better ( I have a panny series 5 as my daytime set and to be honest its lacklustre in a lot of image areas compared with a decent CRT).

However the point I was making is that if you are going to rubbish someone elses observations and photographs then its only fair that you provide adequate explanation. And I'm afraid conferring expert status on yourself isn't enough.
 

Galaxy

Active Member
Deron indeed that was the case, I did actually indicate that the pioneer was favoured I believe.

Mr.D as to me only having SOME experience in Photography, I find the statement offensive and the attitude disagreeable.

Go see your consultant on Tuesday have a check up and get the medication adjusted then calm down. (Thats a joke BTW).

I refuse to be drawn into a pi**ing contest in here.
 

Gordon @ Convergent AV

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Well as an innocent bystander here I can say this. MrD knows more about Imaging Science than anyone else I have come across on the forums.

From looking at both sides of this argument it does seem rather obvious to me that valid comments can be gathered from this photpgraph. Whether they are relevant to which is better is not what is being argued.

Going to go hide behind the bar now.....

G
 

Triggaaar

Distinguished Member
Originally posted by Mr.D
The only person on here who has been insulting is Mr. Galaxy
I could not disagree more. While we clearly have different opinions, I believe many of your comments are insulting, and are intended to be patronising:

Originally posted by Mr.D
This next bit is getting off topic but its such a useless theory it makes me laugh.

I've tried to put this stuff as simply as I can if you guys can't follow whats going on here then I suggest you go back to your basic photography theory.

They then prove themselves incapable of actually understanding the situation they are discussing or explaining why they take the opinion they have in the very terms that they profess to be experienced in.

As for my observations being "flawed" feel free to explain to me why they are , if any of you are capable. Which you won't be because if you were you would understand the veracity of my comments in the first place.

All I can say is if you think I've been going on about fancy words and theories with your 30 years of photography experience you must be a very slow learner.
 

Mr.D

Distinguished Member
Many thanks Gordon .

I wouldn't dream of suggesting I know more about anything than anyone on these forums but I take exception when someone else takes the time and effort to perform a shoot-out and produces images that are useful and valid only to be rubbished by other people who rather than give real reasons merely produce their resume'.
 

Brogan

Novice Member
Originally posted by Mr.D
I take exception when someone else takes the time and effort to perform a shoot-out and produces images that are useful and valid only to be rubbished by other people who rather than give real reasons merely produce their resume'.
Those "real reasons" being ones which you refuse to accept or acknowledge?
Let's face it, you have your opinion and that is never going to change, no matter how many people provide comment.
Fine. Accept it and move on.

Oh, P.S....

Originally posted by Mr.D
I wouldn't dream of suggesting I know more about anything than anyone on these forums
Originally posted by Mr.D
I am utterly confident I know more about photography or rather image science than Galaxy or anyone else on this thread who professes to have some experience in this field.
 

Stiesto

Standard Member
This is ridiculous. Those involved, please step back and realise what you are all getting so heated at - a trivial difference of opinion.

Its clear the whole thing is getting more and more personal as it progresses so why don't you just say to yourself "It's not actually that important" and have done with it? There really is no point getting into a flame war over something that is ultimately unprovable in a forum...you'll be slagging each other off forever if you continue.

Have a cuppa and chill.
 

Triggaaar

Distinguished Member
Re my comment: This would depend on how much lower the black point is, and how different the white points are.

Originally posted by Mr.D
They ARE changed by the same percentage : real world light is linear. The photo speaks for itself. The panasonic looks as if it has more contrast. Look at the photograph for cripes sake.
I was referring to the comparisons of the two screens. If both the black and white points of the Panny vary from the Pioneer by the same percentage, then the contrasts of the two plasmas would be the same. Which is not the case.
 

Mr.D

Distinguished Member
Those "real reasons" none of which the self-professed photography experts have come up with but will quite happily insist someone elses efforts are invalid and proclaim it to be so as they are the experts and don't seem to need to back up their claims.

I find that insulting.

Someone berating other peoples images as invalid and then throwing their own crude knock ups into the mix , being obtuse as to the nature of their own image when questioned and then proclaiming it all as some ironic lesson in the worthiness of images in general when they are found out.

I find that insulting.
 

Mr.D

Distinguished Member
Originally posted by Triggaaar
Re my comment: This would depend on how much lower the black point is, and how different the white points are.



I was referring to the comparisons of the two screens. If both the black and white points of the Panny vary from the Pioneer by the same percentage, then the contrasts of the two plasmas would be the same. Which is not the case.
Never said it was. I said the panny will look as if it has a more pleasurably contrasty image as it has lower blacks and an adequate whitepoint compared with the pioneer even if it has a much higher whitepoint and a greater overall contrast range.

(peak white level doesn't really improve the percieved contrast of the image above a certain point whereas the black point has a mch more dramatic role with regard to percieved contrast... this is something else "photographers" should be well aware of)

Negative vs print densities anyone?
 

Brogan

Novice Member
Originally posted by Mr.D
... this is something else "photographers" should be well aware of
You've made yourself quite clear.
There is no need to continue being insulting, condescending and frankly, childish.
It really does reflect badly on you.
 

StooMonster

Well-known Member
Originally posted by cybersoga
I don't totally disagree with stoo, but i'm not entirely convinced with that photo either :) Personally I preferred the picture on the Panasonic.
I've seen them together and side-by-side at many more places than The Event 2 alone.

It's simple: the Panny has better blacks, the Pio is brighter; as per their specs, and general opinion.

Further, I can see how bright the Pio is every time I visit RAMiAM; and the black always looks grey to me. ;) Another "bright" screen is my beautiful Sony GDM-FW900 CRT monitor, these are the best CRT monitors available but don't have the blackest black. Also, my LCD television is grey rather than black.

Some people claim to be sensitive to PAL speedup, others to 3:2 motion judder, others to flicker, my "sensitivity" is greyed blacks. I've worked with digital imaging for twenty years, amoungst other things, and lack of black has always been a bugbear of mine.

Therefore, with my sample size of many more than one, I disagree with cybersoga and say they look exactly like the photo when side-by-side.

StooMonster
 

buns

Banned
Gosh,.... the number one expert on the forum (and possibly the country) chimes in and is barely acknowledged!? :eek:

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