panny v pioneer- black level

MAW

Banned
Problem here is the persons in question have screens with allegedly 'poor' black levels themselves. Nobody likes to see their own kit denigrated, or weak points 'pointed out' (not the same screen, but same weak points) As you say, what the issue is, is that the photo shows up the poor black level, but they rightly say that in the real world it matters less than you might think. Your brain 'reprograms' itself to accept as black, a level of grey which is the darkest the screen can produce. Side by side the difference is like chalk and cheese, but on the wall in your house, why get hung up on it. The fact that the camera never lies is beside the point.
 

Messiah

Well-known Member
Yes I have a Pioneer, and no I don't think the black levels are as bad as that picture points out. Is this because I don't like to see my own kit denigrated? Absolutely not. It's because quite simply I do not have a Panny screen hung on the wall next to it.

What many seem to forget is that black level is only one measure of a screens effectiveness (for pleasure or whatever) and yes, when I bought my screen I knew Panny black levels were way better. I also knew detail level within that black (or grey) is much better on the Pio. The Pio also had (has) other benefits which meant I preferred it and hence why I bought it.

I believe the picture posted does give an indication of the differences (maybe accurate, maybe not) but do not understand why some people get so hung up about it.

Surely those with a Pio screen did their homework and saw a Panny in action prior to purchase. (and vice versa)

Surely those with whichever screen knew what they were buying and therefore knew the pros and cons of each.

And no, I don't think any prospective purchasers should use images like the one posted to form a decision on which screen to buy. Look at them in the flesh and then decide. A buying decision should, IMO, be based on far more than just black level.

And finally, I don't understand why anyone starts threads such as this without wishing (knowing they are going) to cause controversy.

Have fun and enjoy the screen(s) you have.
 

MAW

Banned
Is this because I don't like to see my own kit denigrated? Absolutely not.
Messiah, my remark was not actually directed at you, if it could be said to be directed at all. Just pointing out that emotions have been known to mget in the way of a rational argument! I'm just considering a screen for myself with an even worse black level, and have a projector with low black level too. It's still important to me, but we live in a compromised world. You and I have made a compromise that suits us.
 

Galaxy

Active Member
Ok, I do not pop in here to be insulted, I have been a Professional Photographer for over thirty years, I know what photographs can portray and what that can not.

We all know, except maybe one of us! that the pioneer does not look as bad as in that photograph in real world tests, even side by side.......you can spout , rant and rave all you want with fancy words and theories, I was hoping to point out to people that might have made an ill informed jugdement about either screen from that photograph, not to believe what they see from that thread, go see for theirselves.

And I have neither screen.......

MAW, I agree with you that emotions can get in the way, and I think this thread has already shown that! <BG>

Now I am off to have some toast, lightly browned, but not as much as the wholemeal would be given the same heat level and distance form the element, of course granary would be percieved as having as far greater crunchiness compared with white under the same conditions, then again.....I am not a baker! LOL

Best regards David
 

johnelf

Standard Member
Whilst I no way condider myself an expert, and I do value all opinions here, for one I prefer the Pio and hence bought the 504.

I accept the Panasonics might have better blacks etc etc, but it all comes down to personal choice.

However, if I thought that the screen was any way near as bad as shown in the first photo, then I wouldnt have paid £500 for it let alone £5K. Im afraid the Camera does lie fom time to time and we all know it!!

John
 

Mr.D

Distinguished Member
The photograph is indicative of the differences in the two displays.
Its a good valid comparisson.

Claiming that it isn't and then decrying it on the basis that you are supposedly a photographer when anyone with the most fundamental understanding of basic exposure principles would appreciate what the image indicates. Which I have gone into at length to explain and yet still you persist to know better without offering any adequate explanation beyond your opinion.

The only person on here who has been insulting is Mr. Galaxy in his arrogant rubbishing of the original images on the AVS forums something he only seems able to qualify by trotting out the duration of his "photography" experience.

All I can say is if you think I've been going on about fancy words and theories with your 30 years of photography experience you must be a very slow learner.

And incidentally that image you posted has some very suspicious black levels in the dark border around the plasma image. Care to explain how its got lower levels that the deepest shadows in the rest of the image?
 

Galaxy

Active Member
Yes I would, and the Plasma in question is the Hitachi 500E it has a true black border as part of the screen surround, what you PERCIEVE as being deception on my part is your ignorance of that fact!

nuff said..........
 

Mr.D

Distinguished Member
No what I can measure is the fact that the surround has pixel values of 0.004 , 0 , 0, (normalised RGB 16bit scale) which is significantly lower than even the lowest shadows th lowest I can find being 0.008 0.008 0.008 on the area to the far left of frame.

unmatching blacks especially when clipped to 0 ( in fact there ar e lot of areas in the plasma image that have clipped to 0 which is very suspicious) are indicative of jiggery pokery.

Nominally exposed real world images never have black at 0 or clipped channels for that matter. ( or at least they have some consistency across the intensity range if they have been under exposed a huge amount)In fact if I pull the gamma up on that image you see the screen very visibly pull away from the rest of the image.

It also looks as if its got inconsistent jpeg artifacts relative to the rest of the image ( been repo'd and cornerpinned perhaps?) but jpeg artifacts are by there nature somewhat chaotic.
 

StooMonster

Well-known Member
This image has obviously had it's black levels artificially enhanced in Adobe Photoshop.

How can we see? Check this image where we have removed chroma and then adjusted the luminance levels until natural blacks from the photo are light grey, we can see the enhanced area has blacks that are substancially out of sync with the rest of the image.



Draw your own conclusions about people's motives for posting "enhanced" images.

StooMonster
 

StooMonster

Well-known Member
Snap Mr.D, you can use Photoshop too!

StooMonster
 

Mr.D

Distinguished Member
Thank you Stoo.

I'm actually using Shake but the results speak for themselves.

Cameras don't really lie ...not if you know what you are looking at.
 

Galaxy

Active Member
You really did'nt get the point of the inclusion of that image did you?

It was not to show how good that particular display is, but to show that a photograph of a Plasma screen means absolutely nothing, maybe I really should have included a smiley after?

My original comment was that the "picture" was meaningless, all it showed was

.a. the panny was correctly exposed

.b. the pio was over exposed

Of course all screens have differing black levels and contrast ranges, but this picture could not be used as fair comparison.

That was it.........
 

Mr.D

Distinguished Member
Originally posted by Galaxy


My original comment was that the "picture" was meaningless, all it showed was

.a. the panny was correctly exposed

.b. the pio was over exposed

Of course all screens have differing black levels and contrast ranges, but this picture could not be used as fair comparison.

That was it.........
Which as I've already stated numerous times is precisely why the image does tell us something.

The fact that the displays have had their black points and whitepoints calibrated and the fact that their visual appearance is different relative to each other in the photograph tells us valid information about the relative differences in the whitepoint and black point of each panel. These indicate how well the panels perform relative to each other: lower blacks are mored desirable than higher ones, higher peak white output is more desirable than lower but only up to a point and have less impact on making the image appear to have adequate contrast than where the blacks are : assuming an at least adequate white level.

If the pioneer had blacks at the same level as the panny and still looked blown out in its whites it would be the more desirable panel from the point of view of representing a video intensity range.

It is a fair comparisson. Unless of course its a synthetic image which only tells us something about the expertise level of the creator.
 

Galaxy

Active Member
StooMonster, yes of course it had, hence the Devil smiley!!!!!

That was the whole point of the picture.
 

Mr.D

Distinguished Member
Originally posted by Galaxy
Yes I would, and the Plasma in question is the Hitachi 500E it has a true black border as part of the screen surround, what you PERCIEVE as being deception on my part is your ignorance of that fact!

nuff said..........
Not trying to pass it off as a real image then?
 

Galaxy

Active Member
Nope, not at all.........as I hope would have been indicated by the inclusion of the Devil smiley......
 

Galaxy

Active Member
Messiah........Yes I did alter the image, as I said to show you cannot believe what you see in pictures.

It was not meant as a comparison with the previous pictures of the Panny and Pio.....it was a mischeivous picture....see the smiley?

best regards David
 

Brogan

Novice Member
I'm going to stick up for Galaxy here and say you're wrong Mr.D.
Being an amateur photographer for some time, I know a little about photography.
It is impossible to judge the 2 screens based on this image.
Yes, it shows a difference but you have no baseline which to compare against.
Is is that the Pioneer is "washed out" or is it in fact the Panasonic that is too dark?
I could take the same picture 20 times with the same camera and get a different result each time just based on the amount of light in the room/coming from the screens and where the camera is taking its exposure readings from.
A minute adjustment of the camera angle will alter the exposure and give completely different results.
Also, as he is using a digital camera, the results are less than accurate due to the limited dynamic range of most cheap digital cameras.

Everyone agrees the Panasonic has better blacks but this kind of "comparitive" test is less than useless.

A more valid test would be to use a decent camera for one (a real camera, not one of these noddy digital ones).
Freeze exactly the same image on each screen and use a large piece of black card in between the 2 panels and take the light/exposure readings off that.
This will then give you a more relative comparison of each panel compared to a black screen.
It still wouldn't beat seeing both panels in person though.
 

StooMonster

Well-known Member
I’ve seen Pios and Pannys side by side, 42” and 50” screens, at both The Event 2 and other places; in person and side-by-side they looked just like the photographs in the link at the top of this article.

Photography aside, in the flesh it’s obvious that Panny has darker blacks and Pio has brighter picture; as per their specs and general opinion, quelle suprise!

I have Panny 50", my friend RAMiAM has Pio 50", they both have pros and cons; but real blacks was a deciding factor for me. Particularly as I only watch television at night so don't need to worry about ambient light.

My other television is an LCD, and that really does have black issues. ;)

StooMonster
 

Mr.D

Distinguished Member
And again I refer you the explanations I've posted: where in spite of exposure issues , camera ideosyncracies , and short of firing a light directly at one of the screens and keeping it off the other ( which is not happening in that scene).

The fact that the panels have been calibrated with regard to whitepoint and black point and are depicted in the SAME photograph means you can say valid things about certain image performance on both screens.

The baseline is that both panels have their whitepoint set as high as it will go without clipping and the black point as low without crushing.

There is absolutely no point exposing for the screens individually as the image would tell you nothing without the differences in exposure being noted in which case you wouldn't need the images themselves and you would be better off sticking a colour analyser on the screen and measuring its min and max output.

This is about comparing multiple screens in a single image.

Making minute angle changes to a camera will not change the overall exposure in a scene. It may change the reading the camera takes if you use its spot and if you moved it enough to say centre on a bright source that previously wasn't covered by the angle but thats hardly a minute move.
 

buns

Banned
Originally posted by StooMonster
I’ve seen Pios and Pannys side by side, 42” and 50” screens, at both The Event 2 and other places; in person and side-by-side they looked just like the photographs in the link at the top of this article.

StooMonster
Irrelevant of whether someone thinks the photos are valid or not, StooMonster's observations are the only ones here which are definitely to be trusted. If he has seen the screens together and says that they look as in the picture, I dont care if you are Stepher Hawking, if you say otherwise, you are either wrong or calling StooMonster a liar.....

ad
 

Brogan

Novice Member
I've said my piece and you're obviously convinced you know more about photography than myself or even professionals like Galaxy so I'll leave you to it.
If you realised how flawed some of your statements were, perhaps you wouldn't be so quick to post them...
 

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