1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

panny v pioneer- black level

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs Forum' started by Blu-rayx, Apr 5, 2004.

  1. Blu-rayx

    Blu-rayx
    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2001
    Messages:
    2,203
    Products Owned:
    6
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    n/a
    Ratings:
    +289
  2. Elvis

    Elvis
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    interesting thread, but 'flickering like a 50hz tv' has anyone else suffered that with a 6 series panasonic?
     
  3. Taz

    Taz
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Good link, just sent it to my mate who works for Samsung :D
     
  4. alancolledge

    alancolledge
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2004
    Messages:
    518
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Middle England
    Ratings:
    +5
    Jinkies!

    This could make a lot of consumers' minds up for them. Is any one/retailer in a position to mimic this test over here...........?

    Would they want to!?
     
  5. buns

    buns
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,100
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Belfast
    Ratings:
    +1
    I saw it as well...... there is no way I would swap resolution for that much black loss (or gain depending how you look at it!)

    ad
     
  6. cwick

    cwick
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,231
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Reading
    Ratings:
    +95
    Yes and no. They do flicker but it's not, IMHO, anything like a 50Hz tv flicker. The entire picture flickers, all the time, on a TV (and I never, ever noticed this until I got my panny ;)). The PWD6, as I notice it anyway, sometimes flickers on large areas of light, flat colour for PAL sources.
     
  7. Blu-rayx

    Blu-rayx
    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2001
    Messages:
    2,203
    Products Owned:
    6
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    n/a
    Ratings:
    +289
    Hi Elvis,

    It's well know panny's suffer a slight flicker problem.

    some people are more sensitive to flicker than others,that's why i didn't go for the panny.


    DVD:)
     
  8. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    14,174
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +3,004
    At Event we did a similar test except with MOVING pictures. Results will be on discs attendees get. It is not a secret that Panasonics won in both SD and HD categories. By how much varied though.


    Results will follow in next few weeks

    Gordon
     
  9. Techno

    Techno
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2003
    Messages:
    312
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Ratings:
    +2
    Gordon, was the Fuji HA30 in that test. Would be interested to know how that compared tio the Panny.

    Thank you
     
  10. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    14,174
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +3,004
  11. Jasonjo

    Jasonjo
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2001
    Messages:
    2,677
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    UK
    Ratings:
    +115
    I think it was one of the entry level old 10 series Fuji's, not the VHA20 or VHA30
     
  12. emad

    emad
    Banned for trading fraud

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2003
    Messages:
    303
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Ratings:
    +0
    I think we all agree that both Pio4 & Panny6 are top notch screens. The choice between the two will envolve more than just which gives blacker black or which does not flicker with brighter image.

    You buy a package and it envolves:
    1- Price (aka value for money)
    2- Warranty and after sale support.
    3- Looks (some love the Pio's Piano black finish whereas some prefer silver frame) at the end of the day you have to live with it.
    4- Do you want a TV or a display? (The Pio is a TV and the Panny is a display).
    5- your own personal eyes need to judge the picture you see.
    6- connectivity - depends on your kit.
    7- Your use. Will you connect a PC/laptop? Do you need HD?


    If you can answer all the above on a piece of paper and check each plasma's features, you will find the decision easier than you think.

    For those facing the big dilemma of choosing between the two- at least you know that whichever one you end up with - You will NOT be disappointed.

    I went for the Pio 504 and love it. Others went for the Panny and love it too. Go and demo them - digital cameras and other people opinions are no good when you are paying 000s of pounds.

    Emad
     
  13. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
    Distinguished Member AVForums Sponsor

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    14,174
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Living in Surrey, covering UK!
    Ratings:
    +3,004
  14. Tracey

    Tracey
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I must admit I really love the look of the Pio 434 (when it's switched off), but from what I've heard I've 'almost' crossed it off my list and it's now a choice betweena Panasonic or NEC. I won't be auditioning until I can afford one though!
     
  15. Dean

    Dean
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2003
    Messages:
    2,885
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +262
    To be honest the contrast ratio was the most important deciding factor for me and so took the panny. To me a proper cinematic filmic picture HAS to have exceptional blacks so that it is believable and is almost like looking out of a window.
     
  16. cwick

    cwick
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,231
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Reading
    Ratings:
    +95
    I looked out of the window the other day and was shocked to see that there was no colour banding in the sky, and no jaggies on the fence over the road. Very impressive.

    I understand that Pioneer owners don't clean their windows, in order to better replicate their viewing experience. :devil:
     
  17. Stiesto

    Stiesto
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2002
    Messages:
    61
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Location:
    UK
    Ratings:
    +0
    I'd be interested to know what people think of Hitachi panel black levels in comparison to the results in that Panny/Pioneer test. Obviously, I doubt they'd top the Panny (considering the fact its known for sumptuous blacks) but what about against the Pioneer.

    And to be fair, I don't recall a Pioneer screen ever looking that bad when I've viewed them in a store.
     
  18. AV Geeza

    AV Geeza
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2001
    Messages:
    397
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Londinium
    Ratings:
    +3
    I have to say that I have never seen impressive blacks on the 434/504HDE.
    Infact they do seem a little washed out compared to even Hitachi screens, but I have put this down to the black gloss surround as I cant believe that the contrast can be that bad.

    I think that we will get a true look at the Pioneer black/contrast levels once the MXE versions are released.
     
  19. reckless

    reckless
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2003
    Messages:
    987
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Ratings:
    +30
    I had a panny 6 and although I was really impressed with the black level, I had to return it as I found the "shimmer" or "flicker" present with large areas of the same colour (usually white) too distracting.

    I originally bought it over the Pioneer because of the black level. The picture on the Pioneer looked great to my eyes until either large areas of black featured on screen or a 2.35:1 ratio widescreen film was displayed when to me it simply looked grey.

    Once I returned the panny, I went again to look at the Pioneer in case I was mistaken. I went to a different outlet and they had one set up with a HDMI signal going into it. They put on a w/s dvd and although the image was impressive the lack of black still stopped me from buying one.

    Having said that, it was nowhere near as bad as the pictures shown on that other forum.

    Bear in mind though this is all just my opinion and I may be hypercritical as there are loads of people here who love the picture on their Pioneers and can't see flicker on the Panasonic.

    I know that the previous range didn't get a lot of good word of mouth around here but I'm going to wait and see what the new Sony MRX1 is like picture wise. My wife is getting impatient and quickly got used to a plasma on the wall and wants a replacement!
     
  20. vonhosen

    vonhosen
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    Messages:
    1,907
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    41
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +14
    I looked at Panny's & Pioneer's (amongst others).

    Went with a Panny in the end. I'm not susceptable to flicker of a Panny it seems, but I most definitely am to Pioneer black levels.
     
  21. Galaxy

    Galaxy
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2001
    Messages:
    556
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Essex.........UK
    Ratings:
    +14
    Just a thought, and being a professional photographer the first thing that comes to mind when I see that picture is......

    what a load of b******s.........

    Had the guy exposed for the light levels on the pioneer we would all be saying how good the Pioneer was and that the Panasonic is so dark it is unwatchable........this picture is a nonsense, honestly! It is not scientific and not valid either....

    I could take a correctly exposed picture of my Hitachi that would blow that Panny out of the water too! What a daft test!

    Best regards David
     
  22. Galaxy

    Galaxy
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2001
    Messages:
    556
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Essex.........UK
    Ratings:
    +14
    In fact............:devil:
     

    Attached Files:

  23. Galaxy

    Galaxy
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2001
    Messages:
    556
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Essex.........UK
    Ratings:
    +14
    If you look further into that thread at the second "test" picture of the snow scene, you will notice the Pio looks better, this is merely the fact as I stated earlier that the camera is exposing for more light (the ambient light was turned up) as such the panny is underexposed and looks dull and washed out and the Pio looks great, just happens to be the right exposure for that light level and the Pio screen.........

    If this was rocket science I would be on the moon by now! LOL

    Best regards David
     
  24. emad

    emad
    Banned for trading fraud

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2003
    Messages:
    303
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Ratings:
    +0
    I second Galaxy's opinion

    I am a semi pro photographer and can tell you there are soooo many factors envolved that could affect the result. I also have a Pio 504 and there is no way it looks as bad and washed down as it is in the picture shown!!
     
  25. Blu-rayx

    Blu-rayx
    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2001
    Messages:
    2,203
    Products Owned:
    6
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    n/a
    Ratings:
    +289

    IMHO i think the black level on Hitachi plasmas are good very good.



    DVD
     
  26. alancolledge

    alancolledge
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2004
    Messages:
    518
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Middle England
    Ratings:
    +5
    What a relief!!:thumbsup:

    I'll take the silver foil off, that was covering my piano black finish for better contrast.:laugh:

    Seriously though watching the Matrix Revolutions last night showed up the black problem on mine especially with the letterbox showing but it was still a joy to watch due to the differing blacks that stood out.

    i.e. Trinitys latex suit seemed a deep glossy black, the Oracle's hair seemed a blue black etc. It all stood up rather well I thought.


    Shame the story's crap:(
     
  27. MAW

    MAW
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2002
    Messages:
    14,103
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Nr Dorking
    Ratings:
    +411
    Alan has once again cut to the chase, here we are refining our gear for the optimal home cinema experience, yet 9/10 of films are a sad disappointment, never mind the black level.
     
  28. StooMonster

    StooMonster
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Messages:
    4,974
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Kent
    Ratings:
    +314
    It was the worst digital display I have ever seen.

    Compared to the others, side by side, equal setups: horrible. No wonder it got no votes.

    Gordon, still looking forward to getting the CD-ROM; the Event 2 was an excellent day out.

    StooMonster
     
  29. Mr.D

    Mr.D
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2000
    Messages:
    11,165
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +1,202
    I think you are missing the point.
    The panels are photographed next to each other. Regardless of whether or not you believe the exposure criteria favour the overall look of one panel or another displaying images of whatever APL. The fact remains that representationally the photos are a good indication of black level comparisson between the two panels. ( especially as both have supposedly been calibrated for optimum black point)

    Having seen panny vs pioneer shoot outs ( the one Gordon mentions for a start) not only does the pioneer exhibit lifted blacks relative to the panny it also exhibited crushing in the low end: so not only did it have grey blacks they were as flat as a pancake. I also wasn't blown away by the colour accuracy on the pioneer and felt it exhibited more posterisation but admittedly none of the units were calibrated for grayscale. However for intensity range evaluation I'd say the test was still valid.

    In the snow scenes photograph the pioneer still exhibits lifted flat blacks relative to the panny.
     
  30. Galaxy

    Galaxy
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2001
    Messages:
    556
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Essex.........UK
    Ratings:
    +14
    No point was missed, as it was a pointless test!

    Sorry Dr.D but if you look at the original picture again on the pioneer the whites are burnt out and he blacks are grey indicated overexposure to that panels output, where as the panny has good blacks and well exposed whites, you just cannot compare the two panels by using photography if one has higher output than the other!

    As I said before if the exposure was set for the Pioneer panel we would all be saying how dark and gloomy the panny is......

    All this picture is telling us is that the pioneer has greater "light" output than the panny, nothing more nothing less.

    I havent missed the point at all, the point is the photograph is totally meaningless!

    Best regards David
     

Share This Page

Loading...