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Panny Flicker

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by Chris5, May 23, 2004.

  1. Chris5

    Chris5
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    HI, :hiya:

    I've sometimes noticed flicker on the panasonic plasmas I see in shops, but I think I've only seen it on 42" but not 50" am I right, or can it affect the 50" as well, As Fujitsu share the same glass, do they flicker as well, or is it just panasonic?

    I'm only thinking of buying a 50", so if it's only a 42" issue, then I'm happy.

    Thanks!
     
  2. loonatic

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    I'm pretty sure it only affects the SD 42" panels.

    Have never noticed any flicker on my screen :smashin:

    I've never seen the Fujitsu's so can't comment on them.

    Cheers, Lee
     
  3. reckless

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    I know wht you mean about flicker on the panny 6: I had one and sent it back because of it. When I asked on this forum about the flicker I seem to remember someone (I think Joe Fernand but apologies if that's incorrect) saying that I should have a look at the HD model as that displayed the picture differently to the SD panel. Given that the 50" model is HD, I would assume that's the case with that as well.

    Unfortunately, I can't tell you if there's flicker on those screens as I live in Wales and it appears that we're not very big here on av shops that display either the HD panny or the 50" version (unless someone can inform me otherwise). Don't know about the fujitsu sorry but I do know the pioneer doesn't flicker if that's any help.

    It's a real shame as I loved the screen otherwise and my wife, daughter, friends, neighbours etc are still moaning at me for returning it. In all fairness, you can only see it on large areas of colour (usually light) but the problem is, once you see it, you keep on looking for it even when it's not there.

    I do wonder if the series 7 screens will be any better. Sorry I can't be more help but I think MAW is the expert on Fujitsu screens and I'm sure he'll be able to help if he sees this thread.
     
  4. samhain

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    Surely screen flicker is down to displaying a 50Hz image. Using a PC feed you can increase this to a less flickery Hz.

    However, 50Hz flicker may get easier to see the bigger the screen size, no ?
     
  5. Chris5

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    No samhain. there is no excuse for flicker on a any modern plasma, 42" Panasonic does seem to be the exception though
     
  6. reckless

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    Again, I'm sure someone will correct me on this if I'm wrong, but I seem to think that the "4" series Panny didn't flicker: I think they tried to do something different with the "5" series and that's when it started.
     
  7. njr

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    Having recently seen a properly set up 4 series that I was hoping to buy until the deal fell through, I noticed that it does have some flicker, but much less than the 5 series and slightly less than the 6 series IMO. The 4 series still has the best PQ of any plasma I have yet seen (my personal view that may not reflect others opinions)

    Cheers.
     
  8. Northmoorblue

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    I was thinking of buying the 42" Panasonic, as there are some good deals on at the moment, but am now cocerned about this "flicker" problem. Is it a major problem, and does it affect all the latest vesion models? Can it be lived with or is it worth spending the extra for a screen that doesn't have this problem?

    Northmoorblue
     
  9. Fishbones

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    I haven't noticed flicker on my Fujitsu 42VHA30 from interlaced or progressive sources. I think that is due to AVM processing.
     
  10. njr

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    I guess we cant really answer that. Imy best suggestion would be to go and have a look at a few screens and see whether it would bother you. Some people dont notice it at all.
     
  11. NeilMcRae

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    I've got a 5, 6 and a 6HD and I don't get any flickering. I think this is a combo of setup and peoples eyes being more susceptible.

    Neil.
     
  12. Omar

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    I have a Panny 6 and have not noticed any flickering, I use the JB RGB-YUV converter, I dont know if this makes a difference - But NO flickering here !!
     
  13. tman

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    You may well notice some flickering on the 5 and 6 series Pannys as, to save money, Panasonic switched from dual scan (on the 4 series) to single scan on the 5 and 6 series. The way the single scan image is displayed means an interlacing type effect can be seen by some. Dual scan removed this almost completely, which I why I agree with njr, when he says the 4 series panny still has (arguably I suppose) the best PQ of any plasma released so far, and luckily, I've got one!

    It would appear that on the HD panels, Panasonic have kept the dual scan circuitry, but then you pay quite a bit more!
     
  14. reckless

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    It's something that some people can see and others can't. There are many satisfied panny owners here and if it were up to my wife, daughter, friends and neighbours, I'd still have one. Loads of people saw my screen set up and only two people said straightaway "it's flickering". One other said he could see it once I'd shown him what to look for. He'd seen it before but he thought it was normal.

    I could only see it on large areas of single, light colours. For example, if you watch Friends on E4 it's advertised by Jacob's Creek wine and the screen behind the bottle is predominantly white. This, to my eyes, flickers or shimmers. I simply found then that I was spending all my time looking for it all the time.

    Please bear in mind though that this is a purely personal view and you should inspect it yourself. If you go and wish to see if you can see the flicker, may I suggest that you take a copy of Bruce Allmighty (region 2) on DVD and ask them to display it on the introduction screen (where you select the language). On that screen are two headshots of Jim Carrey and Morgan Freeman on a white background. That showed off the shimmer/flicker quite clearly IMHO. Try it on the Pioneer at the same time if possible and if you can't see any difference then you can't see the flicker.

    Hope that helps.
     
  15. Chris5

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    Thanks tman, So, I guess the answer to my original question is, Yes the 50" do not flicker
     
  16. nobbydog

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    I am also seeing it now, my P6 is 6 months old I I've not noticed it until a couple of weeks ago. As reckless says, once you notice it, it drives you crazy. To a non-plasma owner this may seem very off putting. It shouldn't be, the screen is fantastic, but its just annoying when you've tried all the tweaks going to get the best poss pq and then it starts flickering.
    Is it therefore a warranty issue?
     
  17. reckless

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    No, it's not a warranty issue as it's within their specifications. In short, they know it flickers. I would say that due to the nature of the flicker and the fact that the majority of the time it can't be seen, I only noticed it when it was on my wall.

    I felt really stupid to be honest as I'd spent ages going around trying to see all the screens that were out (which is no easy feat in South Wales) and I was so chuffed when it finally arrived. What made it worse was the fact that my wife wanted me to buy the Sony MR1 and I'd gone for the panny because of the reviews, word of mouth and also because when I saw it on display, the picture looked really vibrant with deep blacks. She couldn't see the flicker and so couldn't really understand what the problem was.

    I would also say that John Lewis where I bought it from were really great. I notified them that I thought there was a problem with the set (at that point I didn't know if it was just my screen that was faulty or if it was common to them all) and they let me have time to discuss the matter with Panasonic before I decided on whether or not to return it. No hassle, they just accepted the fact that I wasn't happy with it. When I do replace the screen with one I like they're going to get my business if it's a screen they stock.
     
  18. RemotecUK

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    Im just about to take the plunge and buy one of these but it looks as if I am going to go and look at them again based on this. Can anyone advise some films where the flicker is reallly evident?

    Its a shame really as the screen is a great price and Ill have to save up for a few months to afford something different if I dont like it such as the HD version.

    Why did Panasonic have to take a backward step?

    The main problem is Im set up now for Panasonic having plastered the relevant cables into the wall and I also have the panny wall bracket so its going to be expensive to change screens now.

    The bottom line I suppose is that I need to go and look at them - its just an expensive item not to have it 100% right.
     
  19. Wazy

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    I am also just about to buy one of these. It would be nice if the many owners of these would care to post on this issue.

    How bad is it really? Did anyone buy one knowing that the flicker is evident? Is it worse on sky or dvd, interlaced or progressive images??? And ultimately is it worth spending nearly a grand more for the HD version as I'm on a tight budget as it is!!! :laugh:

    Wazy
     
  20. samhain

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    IMO it's not any worse than a 50Hz tv, regardless of whether or not it should be there in the first place.
     
  21. jmack

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    only ever noticed it once or twice on a nearly all white background adverts.

    you can see it better/worse if you dont look at the screen but look at something else in the room with the plasma in the corner of your eye.(free tip there).

    mine is a panny 4 series clone for record, my mates 5 series flickers alot more.
     
  22. Jasonjo

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    I have had the PWD6 for a few months now and I knew about the flickering before I purchased, as I had heard it metioned on the forums.

    When I demo'd the screen it was difficult to notice any flicker for the series 6 screens, where I could easily see it on the series 5 (at older demo's).

    Now that it is home, I do notice the flicker now and again, but lets not get this out of proportion is really is not that bad unless you are incredibly subsceptible to flicker. I would agree with others that it is more noticeable on large areas of bright or light colours. I also tend to notice it more when I look away from the screen such that I can see the screen in the corner of my eye - this is maybe a good way to test things...

    I run all my video sources from a scaler (iScanHD) and still notice the flicker irrespective of which interlaced/progressive/NTL/DVD signal, as the issue is with how the screen displays 50Hz images...as I have a scaler with variable framerates I have the option to send 50Hz as 60Hz which from memory does eliminate the flicker, but you then have a little judder as you are converting 50Hz into 60Hz - some poeple may not like how this looks...

    Overall the flicker is a little annoying, but I only notice it now and again - I definitely don't regret my choice of plasma for the money...

    AV-Sales have both the SD and HD models, so if you are worried before purchase, try to give have a demo of both to satisfy your own worries...

    Cheers

    JJ
     
  23. reckless

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    Have to agree, problem is twofold though: firstly, I think it's more noticeable as the screen is larger; secondly, I changed from a 100hz sony widescreen and so it had been some time since I'd seen flicker (although I appreciate that 100hz does add different problems of it's own and some wouldn't touch such a set with a bargepole). My mate has a 29" Panny 4:3 set and I can always see flicker on that and yet on my old 25" Sony that I gave to my daughter (and my mum's 25" Sony), it doesn't seem as noticeable. Whether that is due to the relative size of the screens or the way they work in some way I have no idea.

    As to what to see the flicker with, see my earlier post regarding Bruce Allmighty. Alternatively, if you have a copy of the new version of Battlestar Galactica, there's a sequence where the new president orders the remainder of the fleet to leave behind the slower ships and when they explode the screen goes pure white-that shows off the flicker as well. Basically though, if you have any disk that displays a large area of a single light colour, you should see it. Alternatively, if any shop has a ps2 running into it, put on pro evo soccer 3 and play a game at 6hz and then select the 50hz option: you'll see the flicker then.

    Can't emphasise enough though, see it yourself: I honestly don't want to put anyone off a Panny as most here on the forums are really happy with them and at current prices they are superb value for money- it's may just be me and I can assure you, you will only see it on large areas of pure colour and that doesn't happen very often. Perhaps it would be better if instead of returning the screen I had my eyesight adjusted to bring it into line with most others.

    Just to prove I'm not biased against them, I chose the panny over the pioneer 434 and when it went back, I had another look at the pio because I wanted a replacement. Unfortunately, the deep black surround makes black on the pio look washed out to me hence the reason why I'm still looking for a new screen and why I've still got a wall bracket on my wall awaiting my decision.
     
  24. RemotecUK

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    Thanks to all for the information. After reading this I took at extended lunch and popped down to Tottenham court road to all the electrical shops. Not the best place to demo a screen I admin but I did manage to find one P6 connected to an SVideo source and a reasonable (by my standards) picture.

    The sales person popped in Charlies Angels 1 and I had a look at that. This has some areas of white in the first 5 minutes but not any major areas of pure white. For the record I didnt notice any flicker but again there are a number of factors such as distance to screen, source material etc. So I dont consider this to be the best test in the world.

    Im still going to go for the P6 and Im confident it will live up to expectation (I hope!).
     
  25. reckless

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    I'm sure you'll be pleased and wish you well with your purchase. Wish I had a new screen on the way so I'm deeply jealous particularly as Euro 2004 is imminent!
     
  26. Liam @ Prog AV

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    The blacks are just washed out, period. On this and previous models it hasn't been Pioneer's strength. :lesson: The black frame is actually intended to boost the apparent contrast and black level!! The human eye makes out contrast better when it is framed in black and almost matches black level to it subconciously.

    If you think i'm talking out of my scart socket go somewhere with a projector that's not brilliantly blacked out and zoom in the picture so it is now a fair distance in from the black edge - everything seems that little duller and blacks that little weaker with no frame. It's the reason for masking systems being popular and why i've been through 3 black pannys... :smoke:
     
  27. reckless

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    I'm not sure I understand what you mean when you say you went through 3 black pannys? As regards the pioneer, I have to agree that that the blacks looked washed out: I also thought the same about the 433 and was so disappointed when the 434 came out as the pre release talk made me think it was the one I should buy. I even went to a number of places to see them in action to make sure it wasn't just a bad set up. I was trying to be diplomatic though as I didn't want to offend any pio owners who are happy with their sets. I found that the picture looked ok when it filled the screen (normal 16:9 shots etc) but when I saw a 2.35:1 dvd on it, the black bars top and bottom clearly looked grey when up against the surround. I don't know much technically why I like or dislike things, I just know if things irritate me or not.

    Twice, when I've been looking at other screens, shop assistants have come up to me and told me that the only screen to buy was the pio (and I don't mean your comet/currys stores etc where I'd expect to get some flimflam). When I said that I didn't like the picture on it and my reason they basically ridiculed me and told me that the picture was the best there was and that I was the only person who'd ever said anything against the screen. I'm a bit loath to voice my opinion since! It's all subjective and everyone has their likes and dislikes. All I wanted was the lack of flicker of the pio together with the picture of the panny. I'd still like to see the HD Panny as it seems to be generally acknowledged that it doesn't suffer from the flicker. Thing is, I've already sent one plasma back because I wasn't satisfied and I don't particularly want to repeat the experience, not least because I don't think it's fair on the shop.

    I've never really understood why no review of either the panny or the pio mention these points. It's the exact opposite with the Sony MR1: I've only seen that a few times and yet I thought the picture on it was really good. Don't think I ever read a good review of it though and that really put me off, particlulary given the expense of the beast.
     
  28. Liam @ Prog AV

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    At my dad's we've gone from 5 series to 6 series and I recently installed a 6 series at me mums. Three Pannys, all black framed!!

    Know what you mean on the Pio though, I go into stores round here to have a giggle at what they've got on display and am usually tempted to wind the salesman up - what I hate though is when I hear magazine reviews bleated at me :mad: (which I think is what you got r.e. the Pio - What Hifi said it is best therefore salesman think it is best). Especially when the guy doesn't understand the point he is making, or worse still he is saying a valid point for the Pio but it's so badly calibrated that on that particular strength something else looks miles better!!! :( :suicide:

    And while i'm on one I really hate it when the magazine has obviously done a bad review, the sales guy has read it and assumed a magazine says so therefore it must be truth when in fact it isn't, he still doesn't understand what he's going on about yet is relentess in his attempt to sway you to something you don't like.:mad: :mad: :mad: [I need a much angrier smiley face really]

    The odds are that for a lot of potential customers if salesman hadn't stuck his nose in the customer would've probably bought what they originally liked the look of without question!! Instead Mr Customer leaves more confused than when he started and some never get to enjoy a decent plasma screen. Oh well, eventually he may find a decent specialist or a decent setup demo room to make a proper decision. Rant over, thank you for your time! :devil:
     
  29. Jasonjo

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    Have you thought about the Fujitsu's??

    I demo'd the 42VHA30 Fujitsu and was very impressed, as you probs know this uses the same glass as the Panny6 (or series 7 depending on who you believe) - the only reason I went for the panny in the end was cost, looks and flexibility for adding terminals and a scaler...

    Because the Fuji's use the same glass but different electronics I guess these would be a good compromise for you to elimaite the flicker whilst still giving a great picture with good blacks...check it out :smashin:

    JJ
     
  30. reckless

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    Jasonjo,

    Only saw one of them and didn't have my trusty copy of Bruce Allmighty with me.

    Don't know much about these screens or connections on them but one added complication is the fact that I need a separate analogue tuner with teletext as I live in an area where digital reception will apparantly arrive shortly after the pigs have flown overhead.

    I have sky+ but in order to pacify my daughter, she has use of the system between 5 and 7pm which means that unless I want to watch non stop music videos or episodes of Lizzie McGuire whilst I eat my tea, I must have an analogue tuner. Oh, and I'm a teletext junkie. Told you I'm awkward.

    My av equipment (what little of it there is) is in an alcove and my panny was placed on the wall with one tiny (ok, quite large really) lead going to it. Ideally, I'd like to keep this setup (particularly as I only had the shelves put in so the panny could go on the wall!)

    Liam,

    It's really nice to hear someone else gets fed up with those sort of views. As I said, I'm not overly technical and don't profess to be. I do try and read up on things before I go and inspect them but have always thought of them as as a starting point. When I went to see the Sony MR1 it was alongside the TS2 model with the same signal going into it. About a week later I was in a local sony centre having a look at some a/v equipment and the salesman started talking to me (as they do). He started talking about plasmas and I mentioned in passing that I'd recently seen the MR1 and that I thought that it appeared a better picture than the TS2. He immediately told me that it couldn't be right because the TS2 had more resolution than the MR1. Now I have no idea if the settings were different and that was causing the difference but there definately was a difference. He wasn't even there but because the spec on the TS2 said 1024 x1024 he was adamant it must have been better. I have no idea if technically he was right, all I was saying was that at the time I saw them, for whatever reason, the MR1 had a better picture.

    I still reckon the strangest time I had in a shop was (again) in a Sony Centre just a few weeks ago. I went in to see if there was any chance of them having the new MRX1 plasma on display and was told no as it was too expensive but....(wait for it).....the plasma I really should buy was a Pioneer 434 and he could do me a deal on one!. I've never before been in a shop that is specifically set up to sell the products of one firm and be offered an item manufactured by a competitor!

    Sorry to digress. I'll just shut up now and stare at the wall bracket for a while.
     

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