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Panny 7 series doesn't support 50Hz over HDMI

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by andyatkins, Sep 27, 2004.

  1. andyatkins

    andyatkins
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  2. Liam @ Prog AV

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    The HDMI board supports 50hz @ 575p but otherwise only accepts video resolutions (and VGA 640x480 for some reason).

    The pdf then goes on to say the DVI board only accepts VGA, SVGA and XGA resolutions but not any video resolutions nor the native res of the plasma. If this is true it's a HUUGE step backwards since there is now no digital input of NR to the panel. However the document does use the 6 series code for the board so this might be an error (since the 6 series does accept NR @ 60Hz via DVI using the sme board).

    Interesting addition is the SDI and HD SDI boards... although the HD will only take 50 Hz at 575 and 1080 (not 720).
     
  3. kurtz

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    That's incredible: I've just checked the HDMI V1.0 spec and on page 18 it says:

    "An HDMI sink which accepts 50Hz video formats shall support 640x480@60Hz and 720x576p@50Hz video format timings.​

    An HDMI sink which accepts 50Hz video formats, and which supports HDTV capability, shall support 1280x720p@50Hz or 1920x1080i@50Hz video format timings.​

    An HDMI sink that is capable of receiving any of the following video format timings using any other component analog ... input shall be capable of receiving that format across the HDMI interface: 1280x720p@50Hz; 1920x1080i@50Hz"​

    The first clause mandates the weird support of 640x480@60Hz for 50Hz sources (!)
    The second and third clauses imply that 720/50p and 1080/50i should be supported if they are accepted over component.

    I thought this had to be complied with to make the card fully HDMI compliant.

    (Also note that the spec calls for 576p whereas Panasonic seem to specify 575p again.)
     
  4. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Yes when you get a chance to read the supported resolutions of the DVI and HDMI cards for Panasonics it's sad reading indeed....still the analogue inputs are well sorted!hahaha

    Gordon
     
  5. jimg

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    Sorry but I am still learning about all of this! How does VGA "fix" the problem?
    Cheers
    JimG
     
  6. alex_30252

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    Sorry for asking but does it mean that we my face some compatibility issues with some HDMI gears such as the pioneer DVD player 868 ?
    Thanks
     
  7. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    What it means is that if you want to send 720p or 1080i at 50Hz to the HDMI inputs you can't. If you want to send 576p@50Hz you can....As most folk ideally want to try and send the native resolution of the panel at either 48/50/60/72/75 Hz via a digital input you can see that with the current support it's not going to happen. The analogue PC input supports most/all of these I think though and a good implimentation of analogue processing may mean little difference even if the digital inputs were to work at these resolutions and refresh rates. It'll all be much clearer once we have a unit to play with

    Gordon
     
  8. Liam @ Prog AV

    Liam @ Prog AV
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    The main "problem" being referred to is being able to send native resolution to a Panasonic plasma, *digitally*. Some had hoped that the HDMI card might add the ability to do this at a selection of useful refresh rates, others had hoped for an updated DVI card. It seems neither has been done. On the 6 series one could just about get native resolution into the panel, but this involved converting PAL signals from 50Hz to 60Hz which can introduce judder. Therefore the fix for HCPC or Video Processor owners (the only people this is really relevant to up to now) is to run analogue to the VGA and ignore digital.

    However there is also a problem for people with HDMI DVD players that upconvert signals to 720p or 1080i. If these signals originated from a PAL disc (and hence are at 50hz) then they will not work [based on the evidence in the pdf file]. The player will have to stick to 576p and rely on the plasmas up or downscaling. The worse issue is gonna be with HDTV boxes that have HDMI connections, any 720p or greater resolution material filmed at 50Hz is not gonna work with the Panasonic HDMI card and will have to be run via component to the panel.

    Before now, the argument Panasonic had is that in the UK we don't need this kind of capability (although video processor and HCPC people did). Now that HDMI players with upconversion are the norm and HDTV is due in 2 years I really would have thought Panasonic would've had the common sense to at least allow 720p in at 50Hz - especially since this is the resolution the Panasonics seem to work best from video processors anyway! If the pdf is accurate regarding the DVI card then they've really taken a step backwards, I hope for their sake it isn't. Looks like the much more flexible Pioneer and the new XR series from NEC are gonna be the big models next year for people who want to use HDMI or DVI outputs from their video processors. That or Panasonic (or a 3rd party) will have to re-release the HDMI card with better compatibility. The real problem is a year or two down the line when general public start getting upscaling DVD players and HDTV boxes with HDMI sockets, there'll be a huge backlash that nothing works!

    Last year the only saving grace was that there was very little difference between analogue and digital once properley setup on the Panasonic, let's hope the same is true this year...
     
  9. alex_30252

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    Thanks for the reply.
    - Is the HDMI input of the Pioneer PDP-505XDE fully compatible with all HD video resolutions PAL/NTSC? The 868-AVi pioneer DVD player is...
    - If yes, can I plug a HDMI switcher (2x1) into the pioneer HDMI input (tuner)?
     
  10. andyatkins

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    Although I raised the issue as I've just been & got a PHD6 from AV-Sales its kind of a relief to hear the 50Hz issue isn't solved by the 7 series arrival in a way.

    I am hoping that my PHD6 will be able to display Sky in HD once it arrives & I have assumed this should be achievable in the worst case by having an HCPC in-between. If we assume Sky's HD box outputs digitially with either HDMI or DVI then surely an HCPC with a suitable DVI/HDMI input capture card running DScaler (or son of in 2 years time) & then 50Hz output to the Panny's VGA port using a high-quality video card should do the job?

    Anyone know of a reason why this shouldn't work?
     
  11. Liam @ Prog AV

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    Yeah a HCPC or video processor will be able to change the refresh rate no worries. Or just run analogue component when the time comes!!
     
  12. andyatkins

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    Liam

    In your opinion is there any visual benefit to be gained by changing the refresh rate from 50 to 60 within an HCPC solution - in other words would something like DScaler work to reduce the judder effect? My view was simply to output Analogue VGA @50 from the HCPC ideally at native res.?
     
  13. Liam @ Prog AV

    Liam @ Prog AV
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    I would stick with VGA too if the pdf is correct in what it says the plasma can and cannot accept digitally!!
     
  14. peezee

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    Wow! I got all excited first with the news of PW7 displays available today, only to discover (from reading the pdf brochure) that the DVI board only supports three meager resolutions, none of which "video" resolution, nor HD, nor even at 50Hz. :mad:

    Hard to believe this is possible for a 7th generation screen. What about all the people with an HTPC? What about e.g. upcoming cable TV STB's with DVI output soon providing 1080i@50 HDTV (within a few month here now)?? In addition the HDMI board doesn't seem to help either, this is non-sense.

    Even the so often downplayed Hitachi's have DVI inputs (with HDCP btw) that do support a range of PC *and* video resolutions, including 1080i@50 and a bunch of others... Ditto for the LG 42PX11 series...!

    I've seen mistakes -big ones at times- in specs sheets (no to mention mktg brochures) before. Let's hope Pana's wrong in its brochures - and right in its hardware! Otherwise I'll have to look elsewhere...

    EDIT: now of course these are "Pro" displays and not TVs... wondering if this could explain the lack of support for video resolutions via DVI...? Otoh the consumer displays ("TVs") would get the same DVI boards I suppose, so that's probably not an explanation...
     
  15. Liam @ Prog AV

    Liam @ Prog AV
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    I'm with you on hoping the spec is simply incorrect - I have my fingers crossed so hard my knuckles are white!!
     
  16. Leigh_1973

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    I take it its pointless contacting panasonic on the matter then?
     
  17. Liam @ Prog AV

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    It's pointless contacting Panasonic on most matters!!!
     
  18. Leigh_1973

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    oh, and there was me taking a look at the PW7 last night, maybe the fujitsu is a better bet after all, mind you that doenst even have DVI/HDMI. Mind you i dont have anything that utilises it at present, but wanted to be a bit future proof.

    And then theres my last experience of a panny CRT about 7 years ago, after about 18 months the tube went. :(
     
  19. Liam @ Prog AV

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    If you are willing to go Fujitsu and not bother with any digital inputs at all, then you might as well go with the panny. It's only the digital inputs that are in-question on the monitor model!!
     
  20. peezee

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    yeah, pretty much where I stand right now... :laugh: well... :mad:

    I've actually asked about this on another topic, let's hope we get some answer soon...:
    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153693

    Hey, if Pana can't put their act together as to what the near future of TV looks like then I'll cross them alltogether. Shame. I do love black blacks on a TV screen! :(

    As for Fujitsu, I've been told a new series is expected before year end, which supposedly will have both DVI *and* HDMI connectivity (don't know about supported resolutions). Probably at a price, though... :rolleyes:

    Since I'm looking for a 37" model with DVI-HDCP and 50Hz support I might be left with no other choice than the here beloved 37PD5100/5200 from Hitachi... :eek: :D
     
  21. StooMonster

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    Come back from long holiday :) and being under piles of work for months, and still got too much work to do to be reading AV FORUMS :eek:, but thought I'd see what the HDMI status was with Panny plasmas...

    Only to be disappointed, but not at all suprised by the thread I read above. :rolleyes:

    If Panasonic sold 50" plasmas that accepted native rate digital signals at 50Hz and 60Hz (and pushing it 48Hz) I would sell my two year old 50" series 5 (or put it someone else in the house ;)) immediately and buy a new one.

    Forum Search will demonstrate that earlier this year I spent some time researching deep technical aspects of this issue (e.g. even flashing EDID data on blades) and IMO what is amazing about this problem with Panny plasmas, is that the limitations of HDMI (and previously DVI) input are with the cards/blades and not with the screens themselves! :suicide:

    How long is it going to take Panasonic to get an implementation right? PW8 next September anyone?

    Maybe Panasonic could let third-parties develop blades for their screens? In my dreams. :(

    StooMonster
     
  22. Joe Fernand

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    Hello all

    StooMonster - Panasonic already have an 'open' policy on third party card development; so far it seems only commercial solution providers have taken up a licence (integrate PC's and the like).

    Joe
     
  23. andyatkins

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    Stoomonster

    I recall your posts a while ago about flashing the EDID data on the cards. A the time it sounded promising but from the tone of the message above it sounds like this was unsucessful? Could you please give us an update as to where you finally got with it?

    Thanks
     
  24. Liam @ Prog AV

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    I would be wary of putting too much into ensuring DVI connection rather than considering the overall resulting picture quality. I would personally prefer 50HZ VGA on a 37" Panny over 50HZ DVI on a 37" Hitachi. By quite a way in fact.
     
  25. peezee

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    Liam, I understand what you're saying. But from what I can tell DVI gives much better results than VGA - such that I can hardly envisage a purchase of that magnitude without DVI connectivity.

    What I mean is, I have a 17" LCD monitor with both DVI and VGA inputs (ditto for the ATI graphics card it's connected to), and can therefore easily compare the two by just switching inputs on the monitor with a simple key press). Not only is the desktop and text much crisper and punchier thru the DVI i/p, but even video type signals see a nice improvement: more contrast, more vivid colors, more punch to the picture. And I don't think this is due to the graphics card (though I'm willing to discuss it if you think differently).

    I've also read consistently that plasma screens do exhibit the best picture when their DVI (or HDMI) input is used. This apparently is true for the Hitachi's too.

    Beside, most, if not all, new hardware (DVD players, STBs, cable decoders) do and will come with DVI or HDMI outputs. And I'd hate not to be able to match it on my plasma. A subjective matter I suppose, but that's how I feel about it.
     
  26. Liam @ Prog AV

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    DVD players and STBs with DVI or HDMI sending video signals will be fine with Panasonics HDCP enabled DVI socket as much as they are with Hitachi's (although final confirmation on the 7 series card is required to see just how many video resolutions at which refresh rates it will take). Besides to me 720p analogue may still look better on a Panny than the same signal DVI into a Hitachi....

    I don't think test is entirely accurate, had it been you still would have seen a difference of course. But it would have been far smaller and not really had much at all to do with contrast and colour, more sharpness and DA-AD artefacts. (you need to calibrate your graphics card and display properely, for each input, in order to make a like-for-like comparison).

    Yes DVI is better than VGA. But it doesn't make a plasma physically better than it actually is. Take your LCD monitor, what if the guy next to you had a much better LCD, with a better picture than yours, but was only able to feed it VGA - would you still prefer your screen over his purely because you know it is being sent a DVI signal? It's a bit harsh but I think this is exactly the case with the Hitachi and Panasonic.
     
  27. peezee

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    I guess the best way to determine this would be a direct test: VGA on Panasonic vs DVI on Hitachi... I might be able to do that btw, unfortunately the environment in HC shops or worse yet big stores is but optimal to perform such comparisons.

    You might be right that the Pana would still look better, but I'm even more concerned with *compatibility* with what's in store in terms of upcoming STB's and next year's HD broadcasts:

    but that's precisely where the problem lies. First it's not clear to me whether or not HD signals (720p and beyond) will be enabled via *any* analog output, incl. VGA (provided there is a VGA connection, that is...). Therefore with the PW7 series, not having 720p and/or 1080i @50Hz supported via the DVI board would not just mean not having the best picture, it would mean not having any picture at all... :thumbsdow
     
  28. Liam @ Prog AV

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    I think it's safe to assume that we are decades away from sources not having an analogue output at all!!! Shame we can't get that kind of demo, maybe Event 3 will do some sort of analogue versus digital setup though. Would be kinda cool
     
  29. peezee

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    Liam, I'm obviously talking about *HD signals* specifically. I'm just wondering whether *HD signals* will be enabled or not via analogue outputs on future STB's (by future I mean within a few months where I reside btw). I have no doubt that for SD signals composite et all (Scart :eek: ) will still be with us for years to come...

    Btw iiuc the FCC is now trying to force complete stopping of analogue broadcasts in the US by 2009... :smoke:
     
  30. Liam @ Prog AV

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    Yes I mean 720p and 1080i via component, plenty of high res displays do not have digital connections at all so would be stupid to release HDTV boxes without any HD analogue outputs!! There again, manaufacturers have done some very stupid things...
     

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