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Panny 6 - Wow !......but just one thing...

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by Geordie Jester, Oct 26, 2003.

  1. Geordie Jester

    Geordie Jester
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    Received the Panny 6 this weekend and it's really the biz. The picture quality is absolutely brill. :clap: The sound thru the sc-ht900 is fantastic too. Starwars II is very good demo disk. The asteroid chase or arena section in particular.

    One thing though.....and this is really really getting on my nerves..... the sound is slightly out of sync with the video. :confused: Thru the cable TV (SCART board) the difference is slight but noticeable but watching a DVD (component board) the lag is really bad. Can anyone PLEASE suggest anything that can be done?? There seem so many menus' with both devices that Im hoping there is a tweak I can make somewhere. The sound system does have delay settings for the surround speakers, but only really in relation to seating position, not a global offset. :(

    Anything you guys can suggest would be appreciated. It is literally milliseconds from perfection !


    Regards

    :hiya:
     
  2. gandley

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    This is the down side to plasma, as the video gets slowed down due to the digital processing.

    and unless your amp can handle time delay your pretty stuffed.
    somtimes you can adjust the individual speaker gains by + - ms
    but again youll have to check your amps settings. adjusting the centre speaker is the most important as it handles speech.

    otherwise best upgrade to an amp with a time delay function.

    it does seem this is more of a problem with the pannasonic sets as its the same with mine yet my pio was pretty much in sync and was only very occasionaly out.

    but i have time delay and it works a treat

    and i dont think there is an adjustment via the plasma panel.
    well there isnt
     
  3. Geordie Jester

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    thanks for the reply




    bugger :(
     
  4. RoyH

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    That's an interesting problem and is one of the issues that concerned me before I eventually bought my Panny 6.

    I've only noticed sync problems very occasionally - I think twice in about 2/3 weeks - though when it has happened, it's been very noticeable rather than slight. In my case, sync problems appear to have occurred only on Sky (standard) and seem to be related to the transmission - i.e. changing channel 'removed' the problem.

    I'm happy to say that we (i.e my family who aren't aware of this issue) haven't seen sync problems on any DVD.

    However, I was convinced the sync problem I saw was related in at least some way to the plasma as I'd never noticed it on my previous CRT (our pattern of viewing remains about the same - though with quite few DVDs to soak up the excellent experience ;) With that said, I'm really not sure as I now see a number of things that went unnoticed on my old and very bog-standard CRT.

    All my kit connects RGB (except video which is composite) via the SCART board.

    Cheers,

    Roy
     
  5. Geordie Jester

    Geordie Jester
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    Thanks for the info Roy. Its interesting that you don't see the problem with DVD.

    The only difference seems to be that im using Component and you are using SCART. Does anyone know whether SCART is better for the delay or something ?!

    by the way. The picture is awesome isn't it ?!
     
  6. Paden

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    I'm feeding my panel component Sky & DVD through the PC input rather than an add on board & don't have any noticable sound sync issues.
    Maybe the board adds some extra delay? Can you try the PC input to test?
    Hope you get it sorted.

    Cheers, Paul
     
  7. Liam @ Prog AV

    Liam @ Prog AV
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    Essentially whether it goes in through 3 phono pins, a scart socket or a 15 pin sub-D - the video signal must be converted into an 848 x 480 resolution progressive image (42"). i.e. which terminal board you go in makes practically no difference to a delay caused by video processing. Which channel you are watching on Sky makes a load of difference (try Sky Sports News for some serious synching issues).

    Unfortuantely Gandley has it spot on - an AV amp with substantial audio delay function or an effects box with the same, is the only way to cure (or just ignore it and love the picture quality some more ;) )
     
  8. Geordie Jester

    Geordie Jester
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    hmmm. that kinda makes sense. except RoyH sees no problems. is that because of the audio kit he may be using that is putting in a delay ?
     
  9. AndyGo

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    Hi Geordie,
    Just a quick suggestion. Not sure of how or what you're hooked up to, but I've just got a WD6 as well, mine is hooked to a bog standard pace Sky digibox via composite scart as one of it's feeds & I have the same lip synch problems as you mention. This problem is pretty much inherent to plasma's as far as I can gather and if you take into account the processing that the picture has done on it then you will see that this can be a necessary evil (do a search on progressive scan in the forums & there's a thread with a good demo of how interlaced to prog. conversion works). If the feed from sky is a stereo only feed (via scart or phono's) then you can potentially tap into this and insert some form of stereo delay to take out the synch problems - apparently ! I did a search on here and I believe a company called Behringer do a low cost stereo delay box, I will be looking to get one myself in the very near future as our sky box is only really for casual or family viewing and the picture quality is adequate for that, so I would rather buy a cheapish delay than upgrade to Sky+ or whatever. I feed DVD in via S-video scart & haven't noticed any prob's with DVD lipsynch. DVD is my only source of Dolby digital, so if there were problems with lipsynch here then you're in different territory as dedicated 5.1 delay boxes are harder to come by (and more expensive than a Denon amp with delay function anyway!!).
    I am still setting things up & experimenting, but when I sort out that delay box I will post how I get on - or if you beat me to it let me know how you get on !!!!
    Cheers,
    Andy G
     
  10. Geordie Jester

    Geordie Jester
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    Just to clarify ...

    I have TH42PW6B with PC input, Component Input board and SCART board.

    Telewest Digital TV box (Pace) to SCART of plasma.

    sc-ht900 to Component of plasma

    Left/Right phonos from Pace to TV sound input of 900 unit


    Like I say, Telewest actually isnt too bad....just about liveable. And from what people say there is often delays and sync problems before it reaches the plasma....... Actually, about that.... is the delay always in that direction for that too ??? Audio beats the video ? I would believe it was the program adding to the problem more if, for once the delay went the other way now and again, surpassing the plasma delay.

    Its the DVD that is surprising. In the setup menus it actually asks what type display is being used. I selected "Plasma". Does anyone know whether this is just to do with the picture settings and not the sound ?

    Im really gutted. It was such a big decision (and expense) to go for it all, that the prospect of needing this and that more is really disheartening.

    I guess its my own fault for not doing adequate research, but a film shouldnt be unwatchable just because you have one the latest and impressive displays !!

    I am also ultra picky on these things. once Ive seen the sync problem I havent been able to watch anything bar the actor/actress's mouths, constantly deciding if its "actually a lot better now". but its not.
     
  11. Matravers

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    What a shame, i also have a panny 6, and was concened about the lip sync issue prior to purchase....but, have been incredibly happy and have no lip sync issues at all!!!!. DVD connected via
    Component Pace Twin connected via scart.

    Good luck!!!!
     
  12. gandley

    gandley
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    it is interesting to note that some sets are worse than others
     
  13. Geordie Jester

    Geordie Jester
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    cheers Matravers, I hope it gets sorted somehow !

    Out of interest, could you tell me what settings u are using on the plasma ? Do you have any of the filters/cinema reality etc turned on ? I keep hoping that I suddenly find I have "s^it mode" enabled or something in one of the deeper menus ;-)
     
  14. AndyGo

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    What's an sc-ht900 ? Is that your DVD player ?

    Is the pin configuration of the scart from the Digibox wired for anything other than composite ? (and does the box output RGB ? -Don't know as I am satellite man)

    If you are outputting stereo from the digibox already via phono leads then it seems to me it would be easy to add a simple stereo delay to sort out the cable issue. (I think they were about £100). The phonos would plug into this, then another set takes the signal back onto it's original path, thern you just dial up the amount of delay required. This way you get control over any cable discrepancies at the turn of a dial. This is my intended approach. On sky the video always lags audio, the amount seems to differ which suggests to me different compression or bitrate (or some other techno term type thingy !) for different programs or channels resulting in differing video processing times within the plasma accordingly. This is presumably why some are worse culprits than others.
    As for DVD, I use an aging Pioneer DV-515 via a quintro switcher to scart plasma input & this is fine. Try hooking up the DVD temporarily to the Scart input to ascertain if it is the component input giving problems.

    If it's any consolation it seems to me that almost everyone with a plasma has issues to address via external components of some form or other. Plasma's aren't really plug & play telly's !! It annoys me a bit that the manufacturers don't point this out to Joe Public. Fortunately, by using this forum I knew what I was getting into & have allocated a lump of funds for aftermarket mod's, etc. Prior to the plasma I had an RPTV for years & years, it was great for ease of use, and I would have bought again if it wasn't for the fact that manufacturers seem to think that the best way to disguise a five foot wide box nowadays is to paint it the brightest, gaudiest silver colour you can imagine. That really looks good up against mahogany & cotswold stone !!!!!
    Still, I digress, take heart in the fact that when it's set up properly, it does kick a** ! I just watched Raiders of the Lost Ark on DVD last night & nearly fell off the sofa at the quality !!

    Andy G
     
  15. Geordie Jester

    Geordie Jester
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    yeah the 900 is a panasonic 5-dvd home theatre jobby. It should get on well with the panny plasma !

    I am not sure about the pins in the SCART. The cable box is set to give out RGB, and picture is spot-on. Would that in itself indicate the wiring in the cable is fine ?

    Don't get me wrong I was not blind about all the techy aspects, its just the DVD is so far out. more than I would have expected, and more than the cable TV, indicating its possibly not just the plasma.
     
  16. cwick

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    Geordie,

    Possibly clutching at straws, and teaching you to suck eggs at the same time, but .... I've a panny 6 too, with no lipsync at all with either of the two DVD players I use (one into component, one into DVI). I very rarely get some lipsync with FreeView (a Netgem iPlayer) into the RGB Scart, but that clears up if I channel up/down.

    However, I sometimes get the DVD on the amp switched into DPLII instead of DTS or DD (usually after I've been tinkering with something else !). When that happens I get massive lipsync issues. Like I said, clutching at straws ....
     
  17. jmack

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    might sound silly but there are alot of people who are very sensitive to lipsync and others who cannot see/hear it.

    the worse thing is when you first notice it ,it can drive you insane.

    i have tried the berhinger audio delay but could not get on with it, made the sound and voices sound far away,

    i am waiting till i can afford a denon 3803, the new digital delay boxes at around £400 is to much as the denon amp is only about £600ish.

    i dont notice the lipsync as much now, usally i jst turn the ntl box off and on to sort it.
     
  18. Geordie Jester

    Geordie Jester
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    hmm I'll double check, but im sure I disable all the DPLII stuff and just let the DVD player pickup its DD settings. It does warn in manual not to have both on.

    Darn, why is everyone else's fine ?! :) Looks like this DVD player is the main culprit then.
     
  19. AndyGo

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    Presumably if box is outputting RGB & scart is fully wired & pic is o.k., then yes. Maybe try putting a composite lead to scart on it to test picture quality difference ? As long as pic is o.k. should be fine.
    I'm surprised about the DVD though, although I seem to remember some people on here not getting on with panny plasma tuner boxes, would be interesting to see if you can borrow a DVD player from a mate or something & hook it up direct to the scart or even composite (if the player has that function), at least then you can try to isolate what's causing or adding to the problems.
    As for the cable, I think most people generally end up investing in some sort of delay to control cable/sat sources.

    Looks like you need to experiment a bit with cables, players, etc. to isolate the problem before a solution can be found.
     
  20. AndyGo

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    Hi Jmack,
    What specifically was the prob with the behringer ?
    I am thinking of getting one of these for my setup for casual sky viewing, when you say it made it sound far away do you mean it distorted the sound rather than only delaying it ?
    What was the model no. ?

    Cheers,
    Andy G
     
  21. Jasonjo

    Jasonjo
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    IIRC if you get the behringer delay unit from Joe @ TMF he will preconfigure it for you to make it easy and sound OK...

    JJ
     
  22. jmack

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    andy

    hard to describe but it sounded like there was something between the sky and amp (which there was the behringer) it was like it was a bit muffled and like the sound was coming for a distance.

    sounds odd i know but even though the voices and movement of lips were on time , sounded very false, its like if you have 1 tv on for picture and 1 for sound .

    i think the model was 2024 or something like that . also i did not like the fact that there was no remote on/off switch and it comes with built in lugs/wings for rack studio use. and if you remove them there is a left .(picky i know).

    so i returned it and been saving for a denon 3803
    hope this helps

    ps. mine was from joe at tmf and he was very helpfull ,set it up before i got it and talked me through some stuff on the phone for it.
    did charge me a restocking fee for returning it though;) ;) ;)
     
  23. Matravers

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    Geordie,

    I have not adjusted too many of the advanced settings yet as i am waiting for my video essentials DVD.

    But for TV i have the contrast and brightness on minus figures, the gamma at 2.5 which i find takes alot of noise away and the AGC off.

    On DVD similiar but with the AGC on.

    When i get the video essentials DVD i am gonna play alot more, because liike yourself i am always wondering if i am getting the best PQ available.
    After that i may still pay for Gordon to come round and setup, but hopefully i will be happy enough without the expense.
     
  24. nobbydog

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    Jmack

    How does the delay unit work? If you have it configured to even out the lip synch on one channel, what happens when you select a different channel on the sky remote, does the unit automatically recognise if the new channel does not suffer the delay problem and adjust itself accordingly or do you have to 'fiddle around' with the unit each time you change to a channel not suffering the lip synch problem?
     
  25. jmack

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    no you have to adjust it yourself, you can setup different profiles for say. 40ms 60ms 80ms then just manually turn over when you turn the channel over.

    to much hard work for me. best thing todo is find a happy medium say 60ms or 80ms and leave it.
     
  26. Dalorp

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    Had my plasma (panny 6) for nearly a week now and watched many DVD's and Sky channels. Had zero lip sync with any DVD and majority of Sky. The only time I get problems is with live 'panel type' programmes eg Soccer Saturday (Sky Sports 1), Your on Sky Sports (Sky Sports 1), News Night (BBC 2), Live Reports(Some Sky News and BBC News 24).

    Anybody have any idea about why this is happening on these particular types of programmes. Seems a bit strange to me.
     
  27. RoyH

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    Dalorp,

    Really glad to see you bump this post with your findings. My experience is essentially identical to yours - i.e. lip sync appears to depend critically on the programme transmission.

    I've been very keen to get up-to-speed with some of the technical details of the lip sync issue though have been unable to do so due to work commitments - always gets in the way of the interesting and really important stuff :( However, I'm intrigued and puzzled by this problem and on the surface there appears to be more to it than just digital image processing - so at the risk of embarrassing myself due to incompetence I'll pose a couple more points/questions:

    In his original post, Geordie Jester described the individual speaker delay settings available on his sound system - though no global adjustment was available. My guess is that in principal, individual speaker delays could be set to resynchronise. However, this strategy doesn't appear to be very practical because apart from trying to calibrate each speaker delay, the 'global' setting would be hopelessly incorrect for a different Sky programme. Taking this reasoning a stage further, even a global adjustment would therefore also suffer the same problem - i.e. synch issue various according to Sky programmes (sometimes very bad and not present at all on 'good' transmissions).

    A quick search on the Internet does reveal some 'solutions' to the digital image lag/lip-sync problem as outlined here:

    http://www.global.yamaha.com/news/20030305.html

    (Check-out paragraph/detail 4 which contains: "a lip sync function that compensates..."

    An earlier post on this thread mentioned the new Denon (I think model AVR 3803) which also provides a DIGITAL AUDIO DELAY:

    http://209.167.103.167/DenonAVR3803.htm

    (Check-out DIGITAL AUDIO DELAY paragraph): Though even this states "This superb new feature allows the customer to digitally delay the amp's audio output until it perfectly synchronizes with the on-screen picture". To my understanding, this very much suggests a manual adjustment which would also lead to different requirements for each programme. It occurs to me that unless the Denon digital audio delay function processes both the image and sound streams, it's no more than a basic global manual adjustment that will need to be altered again when changing channel or to DVD.

    Clearly, digital image processing is a real problem but to my mind, delaying the sound seems like a hack (apologies for the software engineering terms) which doesn't really provide a satisfactory solution. The behaviour I see (and hear) on my system seems to suggest that the 'variable' characteristics are introduced by the poor quality transmission of some programmes. For example, I see the worst lip-sync on what appear to be poor quality widescreen transmissions (e.g. BBC News 24), a bit better for Soccer Saturday (a poor image quality 4:3 transmission) through to say, Live Football matches which in the main, appear to be excellent on genuine Sky feeds - even during the studio discussion - no problem. I should say that the 'same' games transmitted on the ITV Premiership are not as good.

    No doubt it's a simplistic (and probably technically incorrect) view, but this behaviour seems to suggest that 'extra' decoding is required (possibly even at the MPEG stage) for poorer quality transmissions, which introduces lip-sync problems. On the surface, it strikes me that the correct strategy in finding a solution is to make the digital image processing stage constant - thus allowing a corresponding constant sound delay.

    I'll stop waffling now and get on with work :( but I do hope I've at least provided sufficient discussion points for someone who really understands the technical details to help explain the lip-sync problem.

    Cheers,

    Roy
     

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