Panny 5 & 6 series 42" plasma's and DVI issues - Any update?

StooMonster

Well-known Member
Well I've been playing with a series 5 card (the card for my 50" series 5 is the same one as for 42"), and doing some research; I also bought the circuit diagrams of Panny5 series plasmas for $10 of the net.

The SiI151A DVI chip in the series5 board is the limiter: it only accepts three resolutions 640x480, 800x600 and 1024x768 all at 60Hz; but the screen would accept anything. This is annoying and could only be fixed with a hardware mod; which I am investigating. :smoke:

The series 6 boards use a different SiI (Silicon Image) DVI chip that accepts almost any resolution and refresh rate and even HDCP signals too, but aren't setup for PCs. This is because PCs can typically only output horizontal resolutions divisible my eight, therefore the EDID data (tells Windows what plug'n'play resolutions the monitor supports) needs updating.

I can flash the firmware in both these DVI boards :) but the series 5 board needs a hardware mod. A very kind AV company is loaning me a series 6 board to examine and see how feasible my envisaged mod is.

The DVI gives a nice picture, but to be honest, not that much better than 1:1 pixel mapped analogue signal.

StooMonster
 

kurtz

Active Member
Quote from StooMonster:
The series 6 boards use a different SiI (Silicon Image) DVI chip that accepts almost any resolution and refresh rate and even HDCP signals too
Does this mean that a series 6 DVI board will accept 50Hz signals (eg. 576p/50, 720p/50 from a Denon A11) which was a problem on the series 5? Or would the series 6 board still need flashing get it to accept these signals even though the Sil chip is capable of handling them?
 
C

cenkbut

Guest
Does this mean that a series 6 DVI board will accept 50Hz signals (eg. 576p/50, 720p/50 from a Denon A11) which was a problem on the series 5? Or would the series 6 board still need flashing get it to accept these signals even though the Sil chip is capable of handling them?

Please someone respond to this question as I'll buy a 50pw6 very soon.
 

kurtz

Active Member
cenkbut, this question may have been effectively answered on the DVD player forum by this thread where gandley posted an extract from a French Panny owner:

I'm french and i own a pana 50 with dvi blade and a pioneer dvd player with hdmi-dvi cable.
The image is very nice at 720p, unfortunately, the panasonic dvi blade only works for ntsc!!!
there is a difference between in frequencies between progressive (and interlace) pal and ntsc. pal is 50 khz and ntsc 60 khz

The pana dvi blade works for pal and ntsc (575p and 480p) but only works for the upscaled ntsc 720p not pal 720p!!!

I hope they will fix that.

think the dvi blade is fixed at 60khz so gives pal judder
which looks like 720p/50 isn't recognised by the DVI card and 570p/50 on the DVI input is reclocked to 60Hz.

However, this thread from Matthew Taylor on the plasma forum has some info from Panasonic:

In response, I would explain that the Plasma screen will not be a able to receive a PAL signal
from the HDMI to DVI-D cable this is only through NTSC.

There is no DVI-D board available at this time to accept both the PAL nad NTSC signal but would advise
that there are a new range of products being released in April of this year that may contain the board and
unit you are looking for, Unfortunately information on this range is not released to ourselves until a
week before release so we would have no further information at this time
which seems to confirm the current lack of 50hz support over DVI but offers hope that they may have a solution in the offing :) .
 

V5-APS

Active Member
By board and unit though, do Panasonic mean a new scrren as well ??? Hope not....this can't be an in surmountable issue for them !!
 

rscott4563

Standard Member
I remember not so long ago someone said that Panasonic would be keeping the same input board architecture for the next generation of panels, if this is true then the series 7 DVI board, which we would assume would not have any of the current problems, will fit the series 6 plasmas..... Hopefully

Ryan
 
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cenkbut

Guest
Wow that's good news so the best thing to do is to use the component board of panny 6 until dvi7 board is released.
 

rscott4563

Standard Member
I did say I assume and I can't remember who the source was for this information, though it was someone in the business. I'm currently waiting to hear back from Panasonic on this question and a number of other technical questions and will post results as soon as I have them, hopefully someone in the know will come in with some more definite answers on the whole series 6 series 7 input board compatibilty issue.

Thinking back I remember it was to do with a question about whether Panasonic will allow third parties to produce cards for their plasmas as Pioneer currently do and the answer was that they were going to and this would mean the input board architecture would stay the same....

Ryan
 

rscott4563

Standard Member
Originally posted by cenkbut
Wow that's good news so the best thing to do is to use the component board of panny 6 until dvi7 board is released.

Also if you dont have plans for the built in PC input of the plasma then you could save some money and just use that for you component input, all you need is a 3 RCA (from plasma) to HD15 (PC input) cable.

Ryan
 

StooMonster

Well-known Member
I think it highly likely that series 7 cards will not be compatible with series 6 screens, series 6 don't work in series 5 do they? Furthermore, Panasonic will not let third parties produce cards for their screens, unlike Pioneer who support it.

The Panny plasmas can display just about any resolution / refresh rate combination -- you can test this via VGA.

The problem is the DVI / HDMI receiver chips made by Silicon Image Inc are the limiting factors of what digital signals a screen will display.

The Silicon Image website http://www.siimage.com contains plenty of useful information about DVI and HDMI as Silicon Image are one of the inventors of these formats.

Use the search box on the front screen and enter "DVI Receivers" which will take you to the SiI Customer Resource Center. Here you can click on categories on the left, and can easily navigate to "DVI | Receivers" or "DVI-HDCP | Receivers" or "HDMI | Receivers" to read all about the chips that are available now and what signals they support.

StooMonster
 
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cenkbut

Guest
I will use the VGA port for sky,echostar receiver and dvd recorder using a rgb switch and js rgb - vga converter so i'll need a component board for now.
 
C

cenkbut

Guest
Are you sure about this, it will be a shame for 6 users not to use this dvi card, so how can they sell 6 series displays with this incompatibility?
 

rscott4563

Standard Member
Originally posted by StooMonster
I think it highly likely that series 7 cards will not be compatible with series 6 screens, series 6 don't work in series 5 do they? Furthermore, Panasonic will not let third parties produce cards for their screens, unlike Pioneer who support it.

You seem very definite on your post, do you have some information from Panasonic which we don't?

Originally posted by StooMonster
The Panny plasmas can display just about any resolution / refresh rate combination -- you can test this via VGA.

This is one of the questions which I'm waiting to hear back from Panasonic, I know that the Panasonic can accept any resolution and refresh rate (within reason) via the VGA port but does anyone have any proof that the screen is actually displaying at this resolution (if a 1366x768 is feed in, do we know that it is pixel perfect and hasn't been scaled again by the built in scaler) and refresh rate (rather than being re converted down to 60Hz), also I've read the posts regarding the reflashing of the DVI boards EDID data to allow it to accept any resolution and refresh rate (within reason) but again does anyone know if this is then displayed as it should be without any re conversion down to 60Hz or re-scaled again by the internal gubbins??

Cheers

Ryan :smashin:
 

rscott4563

Standard Member
Found at least one reference to the claim that Panasonic were releasing their card architecture to third parties, it comes via SimonO, via Joe Fernand, see the link here (its just over half way down the thread), there are also comments there regarding the fact that it is believed that any refresh rate above 60Hz is resampled back down before being displayed, we really need answers from Panasonic technical to put us all straight, wheres that Panaman/Techman guy who pops up now and again??

Ryan :smashin:
 

rscott4563

Standard Member
Originally posted by StooMonster
I think it highly likely that series 7 cards will not be compatible with series 6 screens, series 6 don't work in series 5 do they? StooMonster

Just doing a quick search and isn't the DVI board for the 5 series Panasonics the TY-42TM4D DVI Terminal Board, which would make it the 4 series board wouldn't it?
I tried doing a search for a TY-42TM5D DVI Terminal Board and couldn't find anything, is there even a 5 series specific DVI board??
Surely this would hint that there would be no reason why there wouldn't be backwards compatiblity with the new 7 series board and the 6 series???

Or I could have got it all wrong or maybe someone has some information direct from Panasonic which says differently, if so please share it with the rest of us...

Ryan
:smashin:
 

rscott4563

Standard Member
Bump, anyone with some more input??
 

rscott4563

Standard Member
Well still no reply from Panasonic regarding my questions, does anyone here have the answers regarding this question:

quote:Originally posted by StooMonster
The Panny plasmas can display just about any resolution / refresh rate combination -- you can test this via VGA.

This is one of the questions which I'm waiting to hear back from Panasonic, I know that the Panasonic can accept any resolution and refresh rate (within reason) via the VGA port but does anyone have any proof that the screen is actually displaying at this resolution (if a 1366x768 is feed in, do we know that it is pixel perfect and hasn't been scaled again by the built in scaler) and refresh rate (rather than being re converted down to 60Hz), also I've read the posts regarding the reflashing of the DVI boards EDID data to allow it to accept any resolution and refresh rate (within reason) but again does anyone know if this is then displayed as it should be without any re conversion down to 60Hz or re-scaled again by the internal gubbins??

Cheers

Ryan
 

StooMonster

Well-known Member
Originally posted by rscott4563
You seem very definite on your post, do you have some information from Panasonic which we don't?
1. Panasonic do not have a good record in this area.
2. The business case supports my view, i.e. encourages people to upgrade, which is a plasma sale and thus Panny getting a return on their investment in plasma technology (plants etc), whereas selling a £200 PCB is not.

Originally posted by rscott4563
This is one of the questions which I'm waiting to hear back from Panasonic, I know that the Panasonic can accept any resolution and refresh rate (within reason) via the VGA port but does anyone have any proof that the screen is actually displaying at this resolution (if a 1366x768 is feed in, do we know that it is pixel perfect and hasn't been scaled again by the built in scaler) and refresh rate (rather than being re converted down to 60Hz), also I've read the posts regarding the reflashing of the DVI boards EDID data to allow it to accept any resolution and refresh rate (within reason) but again does anyone know if this is then displayed as it should be without any re conversion down to 60Hz or re-scaled again by the internal gubbins??

Anyone who refers to internal gubbins obviously doesn't have such documentation as the Technical Engineering Manuals that contain detailed circuit diagrams of these plasmas; but are easily purchased as PDFs over the internet for $10.

Panasonic plasmas do not convert all refresh rates to 60Hz, they also support 48Hz and 50Hz too. Pioneer plasmas on the other hand (at least last years models) convert all fresh rates to 70Hz (and produce that infamous tearing effect).

Some newer generation plasmas also support 100Hz rates for their internal frame buffers.

How do I know this? Because I have enough PC skills to search the internet, find a "judder tester" piece of software, install it, run it, and see which frame rates work at native rates and do not "judder" or "tear" (two technical terms for imaging problems). And have tested not only have my 50" plasma screen, and my LCD television, and my LCD monitors, but my friends 50" plasmas, and my Sony GDM-FW900 CRT monitor too.

If you want proof, run the test yourself on a range of screens, it's child's play.

Furthermore, one can read the Technical Engineering Manuals rather than bother Panasonic UK who are not too well equiped to answer the questions because Japan tell them squat.

Who do we think lent StooMonster different DVI boards from different Panasonic models to play with in the hope that he could help them?

As I pointed out in other posts, if only it were as simple as flashing VESA EDID data to allow DVI cards to accept different resolutions life would be simple, it's the SILICON IMAGE DVI/DVI-HDCP/HDMI RECEIVER chips that limit the digital signal resolutions these screens accept. EDID only affects Plug-and-Play in Windows, not the card itself.

Originally posted by rscott4563
Just doing a quick search and isn't the DVI board for the 5 series Panasonics the TY-42TM4D DVI Terminal Board, which would make it the 4 series board wouldn't it?B]


Yes that is correct, and mentioned in other post in this group and others.

Panasonic did not bother making a board for series 5, but series 4 board fits the series 5 screen. This was because there was no definitives about the direction of DVI/DVI-HDCP/HDMI in 2002 when series 5 was designed; so they just ignored the issue.

This is the fundamental part of the problem, the series 4 board uses DVI Receiver chips that were available at the time in 2001 (Silicon Image SiI151A, go look them up yourself) and they only accept three resolution 640x480, 800x600 and 1024x768 @ 60Hz.

However, from the Technical Engineering Manuals one can see that the ciruits are the same in series 6 and 5 screens, and the series 6 board could easily work with series 5 screens if they hadn't used different edge connectors and a different physical shape.

HTH and I bet it's a better answer than you get out of Panasonic UK.

StooMonster
 

rscott4563

Standard Member
Thanks For the comprehensive reply, that was the sort of thing I was hoping for, funny it comes from a fellow enthusiast and not from Panasonic, even though they have around 5k of my money, obviously giving tech support isn't too high on their agenda...

Originally posted by StooMonster
Anyone who refers to internal gubbins obviously doesn't have such documentation as the Technical Engineering Manuals that contain detailed circuit diagrams of these plasmas

This sounded like a bit of a dig, but with text u never can tell, anyway if it was then where exactly do I claim to have documentation such as the Technical Engineering Manuals??

Originally posted by StooMonster
Panasonic plasmas do not convert all refresh rates to 60Hz, they also support 48Hz and 50Hz too. Pioneer plasmas on the other hand (at least last years models) convert all fresh rates to 70Hz (and produce that infamous tearing effect).

Some newer generation plasmas also support 100Hz rates for their internal frame buffers.

This sounds like really good news, but do you happen to know what the displayable frequency range is of the 50" series 6 Panasonic, i.e. 48Hz to 85H or will it display correctly up to its input limit of 120Hz?

Just re-read another thread here which I had seen but forgot about.

Originally posted by StooMonster
Okay, read around a bit and did some research. Panny5 plasmas have 50Hz and 60Hz internal frame buffers and the above works; for the SD versions that is.

The HD versions of the Panny5 -- like my 50" model -- run a double sample rate frame buffer of 100Hz or 120Hz all the time, and keep the colour depth.

So are you saying that this means the HD units don't suffer from the reduced greyscale issue when taking a 50Hz Pal signal and running at quasi 100Hz?

Originally posted by StooMonster
Therefore suggesting that my research at the beginning of this post was correct, and this screen does not appear to have an internal frame buffer of 60Hz more like one of 120Hz.

So if this is true I should be able to feed a 120Hz signal in from a PC and the plasma should display it as is?

Originally posted by StooMonster
This is the fundamental part of the problem, the series 4 board uses DVI Receiver chips that were available at the time in 2001 (Silicon Image SiI151A, go look them up yourself) and they only accept three resolution 640x480, 800x600 and 1024x768 @ 60Hz.

Slight missunderstanding here, I realise that the series 4/5 DVI board is hardware restricted, but it was the 6 series DVI board (for my 6 series 50") which I was talking about in that it is apparently hardware capable but has the issues with the wrong EDID information, so assuming the 6 series DVI card had the correct EDID information I could connect my PC to it and run 1366x768 @ 48/50/60Hz with no internal reconversion??

Thanks again for your help, it really is appreciated.

Originally posted by StooMonster
How do I know this? Because I have enough PC skills to search the internet, find a "judder tester" piece of software, install it, run it, and see which frame rates work at native rates and do not "judder" or "tear" (two technical terms for imaging problems). And have tested not only have my 50" plasma screen, and my LCD television, and my LCD monitors, but my friends 50" plasmas, and my Sony GDM-FW900 CRT monitor too.

If you want proof, run the test yourself on a range of screens, it's child's play.

I will do just this, but I just figured that if you already knew the answers then I might as well just ask first..

Ryan

:smashin:
 

StooMonster

Well-known Member
rscott4563: technical manuals can be found from the likes of http://www.icxinyi.com/EN/ for about US$10, there are other places too. You can get the technical manuals of plasmas and their cards if you look around the net hard enough, but it may cost a couple of quid. I may have come across as a bit tetchy that day :blush:.

Jackass: this should easily be possible, the problem is in locating the correct edge connectors -- they are Panasonic bespoke ones. I recon one could hardware or desolder connectors from series 4/5 boards and wire them up to series 6 board but this would be messy and a mistake could kill the screen.

The Silicon Image SiI169 DVI-HDCP Receiver chip used in the TY-42TMD cards isn't all that either, it's okay, but still has it's issues.

I've got 1:1 analogue pixel matching with both my Radeoned PC and DVDO iScan HD scaler with high quality cables and to be honest it's not very much different to the DVI.

StooMonster
 

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