Panny 4k terrible footage when zoomed in Videostudio - photo. Advice welcome.

greenfinger

Novice Member
New to forum, but have read interesting comments on here so thought I would join.

(Sadly ) a Panasonic 4K VXF1 owner ( I say 'sadly' as since purchasing I have found more and more limitations with this, depite research and reviews )

My question to you all, in the hope of a well informed reply.

Filmed footage 4k, editing in Videostudio 2018
My PC specs, I7 -6700 processor / 32memory / Geforce 970

( i have tried premierepro ( PC not quite up to it ) and newer versions of Videostudio ( very buggy ) )

QUESTION;

I did a very simple edit, rendered and quality worked well imho. Please see photo ( top )

Now see the 2nd photo ( bottom ) - this is taken from the SAME video - yes it's true!! - the only difference was I applied a tiny zoom into the shot in the editing stage via Videostudio.

AND that bottom photo is the result!!!! - can you believe that. I have used HD footage ( TM700 camcorder and ipads etc ) and never had such bad, unusable quality before - horrendous. )

So, what is going on here? is it the 4k and loss of frames when trying to zoom ( using editor ) ( again, not using the in-camera zoom- but the zoom / crop features are applied at the VideoStudio stage. In face, i note, when i even try to lift the colour for example in editing on this 4k footage, once rendered, it is truly unusable.

I think the Panasonic camcorder 4k is very limiting in that virtually everything incamera is disabled when shooting 4k.....i was thinking to overcome this zoom ( after the event ) i edit the shot in-camera and then upload to my editing programme...but appears features disabled etc as mentioned.

So - thoughts MORE than welcome. A work-around ( although in 2020, paying enough cash out for a 4k camera! really to get these early 2000 results is unacceptable. )

So, there you have it, my first post, appreciate replies. No doubt some of you will not be aware of Videostudio editing software and cannot help, but if you know the Panny 4k camera and think of a way I can use crop / zoom feature after filming please let me know.

Thanks for your time.

a.jpg
 
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Emerton

Active Member
I don't have this camera and rarely shoot in 4k, but the in-camera zoom facility is obviously not re-rendering the effect you are applying, it is just remembering the settings you apply. Forget messing about with in- camera gimmicks like this and do your zooming during post production.
 

greenfinger

Novice Member
Hi Emerton, i appreciate the reply but was disappointed to read you haven't knowledge of the actual camera or the fault, also you missed my actual point (or perhaps i wasnt clear enough )

I didn't ( and cant best of my knowledge ) use 4k incamera zoom/crop ( as mentioned in my post 4k features seem very limited in this camera ) - the 'zoom' i did WAS on the videostudio software.

So, the actual problem IS because i was zooming in post production ( which goes against your suggestion ) , why 4k is proving to be such terrible quality when i crop it, zoom or even add a little colour to in in post production.

Hopefully i will get more replies, but thanks all the same for keeping this thread alive.

( The panny camera seems very restrictive with 4k as mentioned - unless someone out there who is in the know and advise. Hopefully this forum will prove to be somewhat successful in answering my questions. )
 
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greenfinger

Novice Member
one should always ask the question - Why?

Why in 2020 should quality output be something akin to a dodgy vhs mid-80's !

Firstly, we need to look at why this is happening. Does this happen with software you or others are using? premier pro? sure you can render no problem - just like videostudio can - as per still shot - quality great. But, why, when anything is added to the edit timeline in ( this case VS ) should the rendered video degrade so much.

So , in the vein hope of an answer out there ( so far this forum appears a little lacklustre must be said ) can someone shed light on this...dropping frames, see the outline of the 2nd photo...how horrendous is that!!!
 
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Terfyn

Well-known Member
Tried an Auto Pan & Zoom in VS2018 on HD footage and had no problem. Even a deep zoom did not pixilate the picture and there was no change in the colour or sharpness. So no problem with VS and HD. As you see I use the HC-V800 and like some others on here feel it is perfectly adequate.
My guess is that your PC cannot handle 4K without upgrading. I run my videos on a 70" screen with a projector and the quality is excellent.

so far this forum appears a little lacklustre must be said
:thumbsup: :clap: Is that better?
 

dosdan

Active Member
I did a lot of 1080p60/p50-source, 720p60/p50-output pan & zoom in Vegas Pro. (I presume you're not outputting in 4K, as digitally panned&zoom stuff will look soft once you output a zoomed-in part of the frame beyond its original resolution.) This worked OK as long as I only zoomed in a little.

I don't have a 4K camcorder. Have you tried the trial version of Magix Vegas with 4K material for panning-and-zooming to see if it performs satisfactorily? VS may only be optimised for 4K in some parts of its workflow. I don't think I'm going too far here. Corel also bought Jasc Software's PaintShop Pro. Parts of PSP were left un-updated for years, while lots of bling was added.

Don't know about the other video editors, but with Vegas you can lower the preview quality if previewing is jerky.

And, if doing extensive processing, you can render a portion of a track or even multiple whole tracks to a sub-clip in a low-loss ("Intermediate") format. This helps with complex multi-camera stuff, say when you are colour-correcting and sharpening a 2nd camera to more closely match the main camera, or where an Auto-WB change occurs partway though a scene, say during a camera pan, and you want to perform a gradual colour re-balance later on this section to correct it.

Also, sub-clips can help when the program performs multiple operations in an incorrect order. (Something the designers either hadn't considered or found out about during the testing phase.) In Vegas, I did a lot of slo-mo pan-and-zoom replays of soccer goals. Vegas does slow-downs by inserting extra frames (frame duplication). So, in 1/4x slo-mos frames 1,2,3 become 1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2,3,3,3,3. The problem was, when both effects were applied, Vegas did the frame replication internally BEFORE the pan-and-zoom. This produced slight jump-backs during the pan. (I did a lot of frame-stepping while producing each pan-and-zoomed replay.) I got around this by performing the pan-and-zoom first on such a section, rendering it to a intermediate format (Grass Valley HQX). Then I'd load this clip and Ctrl-stretch it to increase the number of frames. effectively slowing down its playback at the 50/60 fps output rate. This way I could execute the pan-and-zoom in this section BEFORE the frame duplication. Of course, if I was only slo-moing OR pan-and-zooming, no such workaround is needed.

Another way to reduce editing playback-stuttering is for the editing program to automatically create proxy files, so you're working with lower-res versions of the 4K source during the editing phase, Once the editing is finished, then the final render is performed using the high-res original files.

Since the max. I ever worked with was 2x Full HD camcorders and 3x ext. audio recorders, I found that either lower-quality previews or sub-clips, if required, were enough on my i5-3470/16GB/GT640 plodder.

Dan.
 
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chrishull3

Well-known Member
You may get better help on Camcorders - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews as virtualy all the members use 4K as i do and i am glad i did in 2014,yours is a strange problem as cropping 4K can be done easily without losing quality,on my films even using 2x digital zoom is fine quality at over 3000mm range,i have no knowledge of your camera but it should not give the problems you describe.
This is my youtube page chris hull the quality i get make me very glad i upgraded from HD to 4k
good luck sorting it out.
 

greenfinger

Novice Member
Firstly i want to thank you all for repling and secondly would like to appologise for being too quick to judge this forum! Just annoyed state of mind spending days editing and end result unwatchable and want answers!!!

When i have a chance i will enjoy throughly the comments ( i need to digest sandwiches at lunch not information!! Dosdan, thanks for your reply ) but will mention, Terfyn ( yes i read previously your experiance of camcorders and was gutted to read that the panny 800 is basically the same as my NEW vxf1 !! i have a TM700..rollercoasters got the better of it in the end..but yes, loved that camera.

BUT, Terfyn, you edited etc using HD. In my post i did say my hd etc all worked fine re all effects ( sorry my posts may warble and not be too clear ) so, even Ipad footage etc all those VS effects never a problem really ( whether quality is hd in the end who knows...but appears decent for me ).

So, it is really 4K - adding any effect in VS onto timeline of 4k and render appears like the 2nd photo.

You mention my PC not up to it ( no man likes to hear this!! ) and perhaps you are right. But, see the 1st photo - certaintly works great if i dont add a zoom or a crop in the editing stage..so PC..clearly can handle 4k ( to some degree ), more a case of why/settings - i mean..just look at that 2nd still shot...again, taken from the same video, same 4k footage, same rendered the only difference in the shot is i decided in the edit to do a slow zoom.

Just mention, any titles/Prodad effects i add / transitions work fine in 4k/rendered.

It appears only when i overlay an 'effect'.

( i take it you cant zoom in -camera on the Panny VXF1 then? new to this camera..and so..far..all greyed out ' cant use this and that in 4k ' on the camera lcd screen.
 

greenfinger

Novice Member
Dosdan, the poxy sanwiches can wait a minute. I will look at Magix Vegas. You mentioned playback stuttering etc - yes, VS, does have SmartProxy feature. Rarely used by me in past as HD, just about was ok. It's suposed to help on the timeline, like you say, makes a copy - easier to play with and then when render - renders it back to high quality.

I have found 4k in timeline - esp when i put in a transition and any 'blur effect' - its staggers so badly!!..but renders/quality is great.

To be honest, i always want the very best quality for my projects - but never really understand it...the outputs etc..touch wood, quality all great from past cameras...never outstanding but always good enough.

But, naturally, you can sense my disappoint upon getting a 4k camera - to end up with this result. Again, quality is excellent once rendered but only if i dont do anything with the image. I can add transitions, ProDad effects I dont have a 4k tv anyway..just..i always think...if i crop an image etc..from 4k then in theory..the crop will be better than HD quality.

Smartproxy on - 4k is slightly better to work with. I did think the zoom using smartrender may of been the issue...so i tried several times....renders from a short 4k clip - zoom or crop or even just lightened the clip a bit..and quality all terrible..tried with smartproxy off - same results. So it's not that.

Chris will maybe try the other camcorder section then. And will check out your youtube channel, give you that 1 extra view! when i get chance later today. Glad to hear that you do recommend upgrading to 4k, although sense you know your onions regarding 4k and have a better PC/setup.
 

dosdan

Active Member
,yours is a strange problem as cropping 4K can be done easily without losing quality,on my films even using 2x digital zoom is fine quality at over 3000mm range,i have no knowledge of your camera but it should not give the problems you describe.
Chris, greenfinger is talking about digital zooming during PP, not in-camera. In-camera digital zooming will not necessarily cause quality loss if the sensor MPix is higher than the output MPix. When you digitally zoom-in you are effectively cropping. It's like cropping a high-res DSLR 24MPix capture to output a resized/cropped 6MPix JPEG. There is extra res available that can be safely used. (A "4K" frame is approx 8MPix.)

But, if you have a 4K media file and you want to crop it further by performing a pan-and-zoom during PP, unless are also prepared to reduce the output framesize to say 1080p, you're going to be losing some resolution. This loss can be masked somewhat by extra sharpening but the difference may become noticeable.

Some in-camera features (EIS, levelling, digital zoom without quality loss) require excess sensor res. That's why they're offered when the camera's in 1080p mode, but not in 4K mode. The VFX1 has a "Total Pixels" spec of only 8.57 MPix, so there appears to be no excess MPix available when operating in 4K mode.

The VFX1 has 24x optical zoom. It can be pushed using "Intelligent Zoom" in 4K mode to 32x, but operating in the final digital 8x part of the zoom range must incur some res loss.
 
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chrishull3

Well-known Member
Cheers Dosden,yes i realise greenfinger is talking about zooming cropping in post,i should have also said using my fairly basic Powerdirecter software i can at least 2x crop in post without losing quality obviously this does not apply to 2x digital mode,what i recommend greenfinger do now as 4K tvs are getting very cheap is purchase one if he plans to stay with 4K,
 

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