Panning blur discovery, maybe?

mrmoo

Member
Here we go.

I'm watching Relocation Relocation in a window. I notice a weird distortion on a fast panning shot. I think that must be a pannig blur and has something to do with interlacing on the TV signal. I play it back over RGB and its a beauty, top of the range blur. So I try different filters and I find that I can make the blur terrible with a weave interlace. And reduce it with TomsMoComp to nearly nothing.

So I think take some pictures. I found that I can't. No matter how fast the shutter speed or multiple frames per second. I can't take a picture of the blur. So I get out my DV camcorder and record the blur. Play it back and its not there, the camcorder can't see it.

My thoughts, the blur is something to do with interlaced signal processing and the reason some people see it more than others is because its related to the colour wheel rainbow effect.

Can someone else confirm this for me, anyone got a DV cam and a blur?

EDIT many months later. What you can see in the picture is not a blur, just a fast panning shot. The blur effect looks very different and is sort of looks like colours along the leading edges of the image. Using an HTPC has removed any blurs and I haven't seen any in months. Or any other image problems tbh.
 

St_ve

Standard Member
I suppose our eyes are a lot better than any camcorder
were u using your HTPC DVI to HDMI & theartetek with ffdshow ?
if you was you could try Windows Media Player .
Have you ever seen the blurs with HD material ?
Sounds like you might be on to something
 

St_ve

Standard Member
Here's a quote from the Secrets of Home Theatre & High Fidelity Site
AIUI for example the signal broadcast by the BBC is interlaced ? so the DLP set stores the signal & doubles it in computer memory then shows it all at once, in a fast pan the memory cannot keep up & you get a blurred/smeared effect. I'm guessing 100 Hrz Tv's might show the same effect.
mproved Definition Television
Improved Definition Television (IDTV) is a process applicable in our current televisions, but is available in very few models. The process converts the interlaced image into a non-interlaced one. The initial field (lines 1,3,5, etc.) is stored in computer memory but not shown. Then, the second field (lines 2,4,6, etc.) is added to the first field, and all the scanning lines which make up the complete frame (lines 1,2,3,4,5,6, etc.) are shown at the same time. The effect is one of reducing the visibility of distinct scanning lines when you view the image. However, the process requires very fast computer memory, and "motion artifacts" can be perceived because currently available memory chips are just not quite fast enough (although they are improving). This will show up when the camera is panned from side to side, giving stationary objects in the scene a smeared effect as the camera passes them by. (Look for the effect by watching the spectators at a sporting event when the camera follows the atheletes.) Also, the image may not be as sharp as the regular interlaced image. However, if your dealer has a TV with IDTV capability, you should compare it with regular television images, because you might prefer the soft velvety appearance that it typically has
Secrets of Home Theatre & High Fidelity
 

mrmoo

Member
I usually see the blur with some Sky channels. I've never seen any with HD, I've watched a far bit of HD-NTSC-TV and I don't recall seeing any. I will start looking.

I've got to say this is quite odd, why can't I see the blur if I look at the screen through the camcorder display. The blur I've got recorded is the longest I've ever seen, its on screen for at least 2 seconds. It was continuous, so every frame would have the error. My DV camcorders native is 25 fps and my camera captures stills at 5 fps. Neither of them can see the blur.
 

St_ve

Standard Member
All the frames in the sequence have no blur untill you play it back at normal speed ?
That blur in Gladiator has no blur if you pause the frames i've taken screengrabs of it.
My thoughts, the blur is something to do with interlaced signal processing
I think it's simply the Toshiba processor memory combination struggling to keep up in certain scenes. It makes sense that you don't see it in high definition as it's allready a 720p signal .How about 1080i HD material (probally a lot easier for the processor to reduce it to 720p than to scale it up)
The reason you see the blur & the camera does not could be down to persistence of vision which is the reason you don't see half a picture in an interlaced signal.
Persistence of vision is why some see rainbows as well. :)
Persistence of Vision
 

KableMan

Active Member
Hi mrmoo/St_ve - I think you may be on to something as the colours I saw are reminiscent of faint rainbows but more persistence than real rainbows and it would explain why different people see them to a greater or lesser extent. I've also heard about the interlacing problem before on 100Hz CRT's - apparently its more noticeable on horizontally scrolling text - like you see at the bottom of the TV screen sometimes. I've not seen it but a mate of mine sees it on his TV often and its down to de-interlacing.

Do you see any fizzing along the edges of the blur? I saw this on certain blurs but not others. Like in East Enders say, which we all know is poor, I'd see an oily blur (like low res contour lines separating blocks of skin tones) with faint fizzing red/blue/green lines along the edges. Unfortunately I did see them on HD too but only the "In Good Company" and "Rules of Attraction" demos as both have panning across pink skinned faces . The former was more than the latter and both were very very faint compared with DVD and normal TV.

Check out I, Robot near the start (2.24-27 ish) when Wil's eating his breakfast you can see his right shoulder blur with faint colour fizzing at the edges as he turns away. Whenever I paused the DVD it vanished.

Keep up the good investigations - I think by analysing the problem from a technical standpoint it'll help defuse the controversy that surrounds it - and that can only be a good thing :thumbsup:

Cheers
KableMan
 

Razor

Member
Looks like theres more of this blurring issue in these forums than at Toshiba HQ. Is there still no offical reason from Tosh why this fault is occuring? Optoma did the same they never explained why the R1 judder occured, evan the technical staff didnt know why it was happening.

I wish you luck :)
 

St_ve

Standard Member
There's the blur which may be down to the speed of the processor & memory
There is banding/haloing which is down to only 256 levels of light intensity being available you usually see this more in dark backgrounds
There is also something called dot crawl
Dot Crawl
All televisions are subject to a problem called "dot crawl". This shows up along horizontal or diagonal edges of objects that have contrasting colors (for example, yellow adjacent to blue), and looks like a moving stairway (escalator). It is caused by the imperfect ability of the comb filter in the TV (or video player) to separate the color signal from the luminance (brightness) because the frequencies overlap. The amount of dot crawl varies with the quality of the TV, but also those units with special image processing features that allow you to enlarge the picture to fill the screen (in "widescreen" TVs; see below) or to magnify a part of the image you want to see in more detail, may be particularly prone to exaggerated dot crawl. Therefore, look for this artifact when choosing a television, especially those with sophisticated arrays of image manipulating capabilities.
So there's at least 3 problems you can get alone or in combination.

It's possible that a firmware fix from Toshiba might help reduce the blur & dot crawl( bit like using updated graphic drivers) not very likely.
At least with high def on the way you have something to look forward to.
 
P

Picman

Guest
Today I had the opportunity to demo the RD50 at Seven Oakes, Shirley. I went there hoping that I would be blown away by the PQ and would finally be able to see a dlp tv without the dreaded panning blur as other RD50 owners have suggested.

I took along a copy of Spiderman 2 - which may not be the best test material I admit but there is scene at approx 29min 25sec where spiderman is walking down the street past some billboards...OMG the blur was definately worse than the Tosh, even the staff agreed it was bad and then tried to explain why pan/blur is worse on right to left pans than on left to right pans.

I was in the company of AV member Willwood who also saw how bad it really was.

One thing I can confirm is that there appears to be a settling in period with these TV's, I've had the Tosh for about 8 weeks and in the begining the Rainbow/Oilskin/panblur was far worse than it is now (and I still look for it).

CONCLUSION
I'm going to stick with the Tosh for the next couple of years and be :) , It has its faults BUT when its good its great.
 

Razor

Member
Picman said:
CONCLUSION
I'm going to stick with the Tosh for the next couple of years and be :) , It has its faults BUT when its good its great.



Thats good news picman, be happy with what you have and stop chasing perfection as you will never get there. :thumbsup:

Im more concerned about how many days I will have to wait for HD. :devil:
 

St_ve

Standard Member
If these set's do need a long settling in period that could be bad news when it comes time to change the bulb's if they are the cause.
I havent noticed any blurs myself so either my set's ok or it's there & i don't notice.
 

Razor

Member
St_ve said:
If these set's do need a long settling in period that could be bad news when it comes time to change the bulb's if they are the cause.
I havent noticed any blurs myself so either my set's ok or it's there & i don't notice.

Hi steve :hiya:


I dont see them either, nor do I want too. :clap: :clap:
 

mrmoo

Member
The more I look at it the more I realise that the blur is something to do with my eyes. The fact that deinterlace filters effect it, for my mind, supposes that it some kind of processing delay. The edge of the blur is made of several colours and weirder still I asked my elderly mother if she could see the blur and she said what blur. Then again she's a bit daft.

Still, looking at live TV through the camcorder magically removes the blur for me, I'll have to get another one for the other eye. Somebody must have the same equipment to confirm that I'm not hallucinating.
 

Razor

Member
mrmoo said:
still I asked my elderly mother if she could see the blur and she said what blur. Then again she's a bit daft.

Still, looking at live TV through the camcorder magically removes the blur for me, I'll have to get another one for the other eye. Somebody must have the same equipment to confirm that I'm not hallucinating.


Mrmoo :hiya:

LOL..... You cruel man calling your elderly mother daft.. :devil:

I dont supose watching the tosh through a camcorder is an accepted work around.... :D


My persnal opinon is that these sets were designed and built for HD (except for Lions LG :hiya: ). Untill we have permanant HD viewing from a good source I dont think it is fair to judge these sets.

After all when TV broadcasting standards and evan dvd standards were set 50' displays weren't the norm, they still arent. So to expect a picture to be large and absolutely perfect is a tall order.

I know you have tried out WMV HD although it is HD and far superior to DVD it still isnt full on top quality HD. What I am trying to say is that untill HD-DVD or Blue Ray is here were are never going to know if the blurring will be reduced to an acceptable or forgetable level. Its a bit like judging a large tv with a VHS recording.Your definately not going to see the best from the TV.

You could be right about the blurring being similar or part of the rainbow effect Mrmoo, I really wouldnt like to say as I havent got a Tosh.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
 

St_ve

Standard Member
I've got Spiderman 2 & i looked for the blur i had to play the scene twice before i saw it first time i was looking at spiderman but i saw it the second time looking at the billboards . I replayed the scene at different speeds no blur below .8 speed but it was there at .8 or faster.
I never saw the Gladiator blur & i looked hard enough for it.
The spiderman billboard had the same picture repeated about 100 times which might have something to do with this instance.
I'll play it in my Limit DVD player via the scart later tonight.
 

Razor

Member
Steve what do you mean .8 speed?
 

soni

Banned
Picman said:
OMG the blur was definately worse than the Tosh, even the staff agreed it was bad and then tried to explain why pan/blur is worse on right to left pans than on left to right pans.
I'm just glad others have witnessed what i saw the other day at Watford on the RD50. I was beginning to think it was me! :eek:
 

mrmoo

Member
St_ve said:
I've got Spiderman 2 & i looked for the blur i had to play the scene twice before i saw it first time i was looking at spiderman but i saw it the second time looking at the billboards . I replayed the scene at different speeds no blur below .8 speed but it was there at .8 or faster.
I never saw the Gladiator blur & i looked hard enough for it.
The spiderman billboard had the same picture repeated about 100 times which might have something to do with this instance.
I'll play it in my Limit DVD player via the scart later tonight.
Seriously Steve, DON'T LOOK FOR IT :lease: .

Once you know what to look for you may very well start seeing them everywhere.
 

St_ve

Standard Member
Razor with the playback speed slowed to .4 (40% of normal no blur ) at .8 (80%) or 1 speed the blur was there. Just played it back on my 15 CRT computer monitor & there was no blur but the background had a slight judder. I'd never notice it normally the cameras focused on Spiderman so that's what i'd do most of the time.
I don't think blurs are going to effect me personally. I can spot rainbows occaisionally but i'm not bothered by them.
The worst problem for me i think is banding/haloing in low light this is because of only having 256 levels of light to play with & is also to do with how good the source is.
I don't see it a lot. There's plenty of good quality programs on broadcast TV Telewest Cable & DVD movies that i'm not going to start picking everything apart.
I might pop down to Sevenoaks tomorrow & have a look at the RD50 they have there
to see if it's to do with setting up or probably needing a run in period.
Maybe an explanation for the very poor Demo's you get in Comet's
 

Razor

Member
St_ve said:
Razor with the playback speed slowed to .4 (40% of normal no blur ) at .8 (80%) or 1 speed the blur was there. Just played it back on my 15 CRT computer monitor & there was no blur but the background had a slight judder. I'd never notice it normally the cameras focused on Spiderman so that's what i'd do most of the time.
I don't think blurs are going to effect me personally. I can spot rainbows occaisionally but i'm not bothered by them.
The worst problem for me i think is banding/haloing in low light this is because of only having 256 levels of light to play with & is also to do with how good the source is.
I don't see it a lot. There's plenty of good quality programs on broadcast TV Telewest Cable & DVD movies that i'm not going to start picking everything apart.
I might pop down to Sevenoaks tomorrow & have a look at the RD50 they have there
to see if it's to do with setting up or probably needing a run in period.
Maybe an explanation for the very poor Demo's you get in Comet's


Oh I see. :)
 

soni

Banned
St_ve said:
I'll play it in my Limit DVD player via the scart later tonight.
Steve - you probably have a perfectly logical reason why you intend connecting your DVD player via the scart terminal, but wouldn't you be better utilising the HDMI connection on the back of your player? PS. Will it still upscale to 720P? :cool:
 

St_ve

Standard Member
Soni i've never bothered with component my DVD player is ancient.
i tried the Spiderman scene & it was worse on the limit with scart. I seriously doubt that it's going to bother me so long as it's just the background.
 

St_ve

Standard Member
soni said:
I'm just glad others have witnessed what i saw the other day at Watford on the RD50. I was beginning to think it was me! :eek:
Soni remember when i posted about the Tosh picture quality in another thread & how bad it was.
Well i went back to the Castle Vale Comet's friday & saw the same set again
It's next to a Sagem45 which is showing some very good hidef stuff .
They are using a video player to supply the rolling demo to about 80% of the sets in the store & it looks very bad on the Tosh. They connected a DVD player to the Tosh & put on Shrek it was in 4:3 format & the picture via scart was average. They could not find a remote so i could'nt make any changes.
They then played the Matrix Reloaded DVD the picture was terrible just like i had seen before they obviously have the Tosh very badly set up.

Saturday i went to the main Comet store in Shirley, Sollihull it's completly different to the Castle Vale branch all the set's had a decent picture going to them. The Sagem 45 was showing hidef & looked very good they had the set low down with a couch in front of it i did notice a narrow vertical viewing angle.
The Tosh was next to a Samsung 50L7 & they connected a DVD to both of them for me only using a scart lead again .The Samsung had a good picture but the picture is smoother than i like .The Tosh was much better than i had seen at the Castle Vale branch but it was still a bad picture. One thing i noticed aproaching the set from the side you see a good picture but standing in front of the set the picture was bad moving to the next aisle & looking from 10 feet the picture was still bad. Both the Tosh & Samsung seem to have narrow vertical viewing angles. I tried adjusting the setings on the Tosh with the remote but did'nt get any improvement. I seem to remember you mentioning the Tosh looked better from a lower than normal angle.?
It does seem hard to get a good demo of these set's i'm sure they all look far better set up properly at home with decent sources.
 

KableMan

Active Member
Hey St_ve - I've spent many an hour looking at the TV's in that comet store in Solihull and messing with the settings on the Samsung. Did you have to hunt down the SCART leads for the DVD players? For some reason they were both hooked up a couple of weeks agao but they were removed recently and when I asked for a set they said they hadn't got any!! How stupid is that!?

The Toshiba in that store is pretty poor and I see blurs and artifacts on it every time. The Samsung is odd though as sometimes it looks reasonable and other times too warm and red looking. It does make a much better job of the analogue feed though.
 

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