Panasonic VT20 Owners blur & pan shot issues - part 2

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Welcome to Panasonic VT20 Owners blur & pan shot issues - part 2
 
ISSUE RESOLUTION: Dear Mr Jackson,

Thank you for your e-mail enquiry.

In response, the V-Real processor makes intelligent estimations at where movement will occur from frame to frame. Due to video being captured at 25 frames per second in the UK this means that each frame is exposed for 4/100ths of a second or 40ms. Sometimes this is not fast enough to capture the motion on screen without causing a small amount of blur. To put this in perspective - a Formula One car travels 20cms in the same time frame. So if the car has moved 20cms before the camera can capture the next frame, this would show as blur on the screen.

The role of intelligent Frame Creation (IFC) is to try to calculate what direction the movement will occur in that 40ms space and it has to do this 2.1 million times to reproduce every detail in every pixel on the screen. As the camera is usually panning or moving at the time of movement, poor encoding of the broadcast signal and any picture noise that is in the signal can mean that small amounts of motion blur or errors are seen. In addition to that, each of the frames captured are split into interlaced fields, transmitted separately and then recombined by the TV to display as a progressive image and so there inevitably will be instances where the processing causes strange effects or artefacts.

However, IFC actually does a very good job of recreating detail in moving objects which has been seen in the motion resolution tests, which are carried out to ensure the best picture performance on the Viera televisions.

The choice for the consumer under some circumstances will be - IFC ON = high motion resolution but with a risk of artefacts or IFC OFF = lower motion resolution (blurriness) but less risk of artefacts.

24p smooth film uses the same processor, but is a little bit different. 24 frames per second material cannot be displayed at that frame rate as picture flicker may be witnessed. Therefore, all displays multiply the 24 frames (either by 2, 3 or 4 times). Viewing the material this way, maintains the "filmic" look of the footage and gives an image of preferable quality for many Viera customers.

However, research in this are found that some viewers are not happy to view film material in this way. For that reason, the Viera televisions offer "smoothing" of the picture by calculating the movement and adding additional new frames.

Unfortunately, as previously stated I am unable to assist with a refund.

We trust that the above information will be of assistance to you. However, of course, if you should have any further queries, please do not hesitate to contact us on 0844 844 3852 or email us using the following email address:

[email protected]

Kind Regards,

Customer Communications Advisor
Panasonic UK Ltd
PUK (Registered Number 01069148 England) Registered Office: Panasonic UK Ltd, Willoughby Road, Bracknell, Berkshire RG12 8FP

I think you need to go into a Panasonic store, use your test material on a Panasonic LCD and then reply to Panasonic stating that their LCDs do not share the same issues. Would be interesting to hear their response.
 
Unsure what you mean but that, motion blur is a major issue on 50hz playback for me (although there are more issues I know)

And that is where the problem lies. The TV has serious motion problems but it is not motion blur in the usual sense.
 
And that is where the problem lies. The TV has serious motion problems but it is not motion blur in the usual sense.

Would you mind saying how, to you, motion problems differ from motion blur?

Thanks.
 
Would you mind saying how, to you, motion problems differ from motion blur?

Thanks.

That would be extremely difficult. The thread is over 1000 posts long and no-one has described it adequately yet.

For me it is a combination of the 50Hz artefact and a serious ghosting/afterimage problem.

The TV has a measured motion resolution of at least 900 lines with Panasonic themselves claiming that it is 1080 lines at all times with IFC on or off (although the email above suggests otherwise).
 
ISSUE RESOLUTION: Dear Mr Jackson,

Thank you for your e-mail enquiry.

In response, the V-Real processor makes intelligent estimations at where movement will occur from frame to frame. Due to video being captured at 25 frames per second in the UK this means that each frame is exposed for 4/100ths of a second or 40ms. Sometimes this is not fast enough to capture the motion on screen without causing a small amount of blur. To put this in perspective - a Formula One car travels 20cms in the same time frame. So if the car has moved 20cms before the camera can capture the next frame, this would show as blur on the screen.

The role of intelligent Frame Creation (IFC) is to try to calculate what direction the movement will occur in that 40ms space and it has to do this 2.1 million times to reproduce every detail in every pixel on the screen. As the camera is usually panning or moving at the time of movement, poor encoding of the broadcast signal and any picture noise that is in the signal can mean that small amounts of motion blur or errors are seen. In addition to that, each of the frames captured are split into interlaced fields, transmitted separately and then recombined by the TV to display as a progressive image and so there inevitably will be instances where the processing causes strange effects or artefacts.

However, IFC actually does a very good job of recreating detail in moving objects which has been seen in the motion resolution tests, which are carried out to ensure the best picture performance on the Viera televisions.

The choice for the consumer under some circumstances will be - IFC ON = high motion resolution but with a risk of artefacts or IFC OFF = lower motion resolution (blurriness) but less risk of artefacts.

24p smooth film uses the same processor, but is a little bit different. 24 frames per second material cannot be displayed at that frame rate as picture flicker may be witnessed. Therefore, all displays multiply the 24 frames (either by 2, 3 or 4 times). Viewing the material this way, maintains the "filmic" look of the footage and gives an image of preferable quality for many Viera customers.

However, research in this are found that some viewers are not happy to view film material in this way. For that reason, the Viera televisions offer "smoothing" of the picture by calculating the movement and adding additional new frames.

Unfortunately, as previously stated I am unable to assist with a refund.

We trust that the above information will be of assistance to you. However, of course, if you should have any further queries, please do not hesitate to contact us on 0844 844 3852 or email us using the following email address:

[email protected]

Kind Regards,

Customer Communications Advisor
Panasonic UK Ltd
PUK (Registered Number 01069148 England) Registered Office: Panasonic UK Ltd, Willoughby Road, Bracknell, Berkshire RG12 8FP


I've had that very same email word for word, either we had the same agent or they have a set number of automatic answers, I think the latter.:thumbsdow
 
I've had that very same email word for word, either we had the same agent or they have a set number of automatic answers, I think the latter.:thumbsdow

Honest lads you are on a hiding to nothing with Panasonic UK. They have a policy of total denial and every thing is operating within spec.
But only thay know what that spec is and they will not reveal this info to anyone. So you can Email as much as you want and you will get the same reply.:mad::thumbsdow

Tell you what though if you get on the old dog and bone to them and explain what is happening you can get some realy funny answers to the problems you are having.:laugh::laugh:
 
Problem is I didn't ask about problems with motion blur it was about false contouring, how thick ar they.:facepalm:
 
May I ask Mr Riddle:smashin:, do you have one of these TV's?

Thanks Mate :smashin:

No and this is why:

The review here of the VX100 and the announced new Panasonic Kuro was enough of a persuasion to abandon an order for two - yes two - KRP600a (s). The hype was building on the new Panny following their roadshow not just here but elsewhere also. That interview from CES entitled " CES 2010 - Panasonic 3D and is Kuro back? (8th January 2010)" together with "Panasonic THX and Kuro Returns (8th January 2010)" led me to place an order for the 65" with Tony Lazzerini at TLC in England along with Jazz Monkey Jnr.

I have been truly horrified that so many people have been disappointed by the 50" set. So much so that I had to see the set for myself in the local shop. I went in at closing time on a Tuesday and asked if I could look at a range of material in the relative quiet and darkness on "home" setting on their 50". I wasn't disappointed and looked forward to hearing from TLC in due course. I was so excited that I went back to the shop to watch the Hockenheim Grand Prix on the BBC red button sub-channel (Sunday remember - shops closed). Throughout it was an utter disaster and that's why, because we don't have any statutory consumer protection that you have in the UK, and I cannot afford a throwaway tele anyway with five children in hand, that I don't have one. Yet. I am off to England to look at the PF12 / 20 65" driven by a Lumagen scaler in a month or two's time.

That was the close shave that I referred to earlier and I didn't mean you any sarcasm. If you felt offended then I apologise.

Mark
 
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I've had that very same email word for word, either we had the same agent or they have a set number of automatic answers, I think the latter.:thumbsdow

I'm afraid it's just 'Copy + Paste' these days :(. Not what one would hope for with such a reputable company regarding a TV thats costs over 2K.:confused:
 
I've had that very same email word for word, either we had the same agent or they have a set number of automatic answers, I think the latter.:thumbsdow

Hi nickteale

I couldn't resist asking but.....Did they address you as Mr Jackson??????

Please forgive etc :laugh:
 
Here's their latest reply to this email i sent, same crap as above :mad:

I've been trying to live with the poor motion handling of this TV but can't. I
believe the issue is to do with the fact the TV is converting 50hz PAL to 60hz
which just doesn't work properly.

I've had the set 2 months and the retailer is obviously unwilling to refund me
my money, can you tell me how i go about getting a refund, i believe you've
organised this with the retailers with other dissapointed customers?

Regards

Thank you for your e-mail enquiry.

In response, the V-Real processor makes intelligent estimations at where movement will occur from frame to frame. Due to video being captured at 25 frames per second in the UK this means that each frame is exposed for 4/100ths of a second or 40ms. Sometimes this is not fast enough to capture the motion on screen without causing a small amount of blur. To put this in perspective - a Formula One car travels 20cms in the same time frame. So if the car has moved 20cms before the camera can capture the next frame, this would show as blur on the screen.

The role of intelligent Frame Creation (IFC) is to try to calculate what direction the movement will occur in that 40ms space and it has to do this 2.1 million times to reproduce every detail in every pixel on the screen. As the camera is usually panning or moving at the time of movement, poor encoding of the broadcast signal and any picture noise that is in the signal can mean that small amounts of motion blur or errors are seen. In addition to that, each of the frames captured are split into interlaced fields, transmitted separately and then recombined by the TV to display as a progressive image and so there inevitably will be instances where the processing causes strange effects or artefacts.

However, IFC actually does a very good job of recreating detail in moving objects which has been seen in the motion resolution tests, which are carried out to ensure the best picture performance on the Viera televisions.

The choice for the consumer under some circumstances will be - IFC ON = high motion resolution but with a risk of artefacts or IFC OFF = lower motion resolution (blurriness) but less risk of artefacts.

24p smooth film uses the same processor, but is a little bit different. 24 frames per second material cannot be displayed at that frame rate as picture flicker may be witnessed. Therefore, all displays multiply the 24 frames (either by 2, 3 or 4 times). Viewing the material this way, maintains the "filmic" look of the footage and gives an image of preferable quality for many Viera customers.

However, research in this are found that some viewers are not happy to view film material in this way. For that reason, the Viera televisions offer "smoothing" of the picture by calculating the movement and adding additional new frames.

We trust that the above information will be of assistance to you. However, of course, if you should have any further queries, please do not hesitate to contact us on 0844 844 3852 or email us using the following email address:

[email protected]

Kind Regards,

and my reply

With IFC on the ball in football, cricket etc etc judders dissapears and mutiplys. Due to the exesive blur without IFC on i fail to see how it's doing a good job.

Your company has 2 adverts one showing tennis and the other football stating that PDP means it's a much smoother experience evening showing the ball getting less blurry, how can that possibly the case when IFC makes the ball motion worse, and switching it off makes fast pans unbarrable to watch.

I ask again, how do i go about getting a refund from Panasonic due to been mis sold this TV?
 
Here's their latest reply to this email i sent, same crap as above :mad:

I've been trying to live with the poor motion handling of this TV but can't. I believe the issue is to do with the fact the TV is converting 50hz PAL to 60hz which just doesn't work properly.

This has not been proven to be true.
 
Hi everyone. I'm new to this forum and was reading up on the VT20. Still haven't decided if I'm going to buy one or not, mainly because of all the issues listed in this thread. Let me first say that I regret that there is no clear solution yet. (Especially for all VT20 owners who experience issues) If I do decide to buy one I'd be happy to post my own findings on here to help out. (Though I'm nowhere near as technical as most people here)

Anyway, I was wondering if someone could tell me if the issue should be a dealbreaker for me, considering I will watch no television broadcasts at all on this TV, only Bluray and DVD film. Also I will use it to play games. (All using a PS3 which will be directly connected to the VT20, or maybe in the future via a new Onkyo receiver) My viewing distance is about 2,5 metres and my current TV is a 4-year-old Samsung HD-Ready LCD, so anything is an improvement for me really.

From what I've read so far most issues seem to be with the lines in football matches, and only very minor when watching Bluray content. However, not everywhere does it say if the Bluray is viewed from a PS3 and utilizing the different output options it has. Also, in one reply I read someone was amazed by watching films on the VT20, then in another I read someone is experiencing problems with it. Couldn't it be that when looking for the problem, you'll find it in places where it's not even there? Like someone mentioned before, sometimes a film is just shot in a certain way and movement is a little blurry anyway, due to the camerawork and recorded format.

It seems like such a shame not to buy this TV that has got so many rave reviews just because of some minor issues, mostly not visible in movies. (In my case that is, not if you're a sports fan obviously) Any more PS3 Bluray info is much appreciated! (Btw, I'm located in The Netherlands, but I think all technical spec is the same around Europe?)

Finally, something to consider maybe: if the problem is not too bad, is there even another TV that can compete with this one at this price, at this point in time? Do not all other TVs that offer this kind of quality at this price (or less) have worse issues and lesser quality?
 
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Hi everyone. I'm new to this forum and was reading up on the VT20. Still haven't decided if I'm going to buy one or not, mainly because of all the issues listed in this thread. Let me first say that I regret that there is no clear solution yet. (Especially for all VT20 owners who experience issues) If I do decide to buy one I'd be happy to post my own findings on here to help out. (Though I'm nowhere near as technical as most people here)

Anyway, I was wondering if someone could tell me if the issue should be a dealbreaker for me, considering I will watch no television broadcasts at all on this TV, only Bluray and DVD film. Also I will use it to play games. (All using a PS3 which will be directly connected to the VT20, or maybe in the future via a new Onkyo receiver) My viewing distance is about 2,5 metres and my current TV is a 4-year-old Samsung HD-Ready LCD, so anything is an improvement for me really.

From what I've read so far most issues seem to be with the lines in football matches, and only very minor when watching Bluray content. However, not everywhere does it say if the Bluray is viewed from a PS3 and utilizing the different output options it has. Also, in one reply I read someone was amazed by watching films on the VT20, then in another I read someone is experiencing problems with it. Couldn't it be that when looking for the problem, you'll find it in places where it's not even there? Like someone mentioned before, sometimes a film is just shot in a certain way and movement is a little blurry anyway, due to the camerawork and recorded format.

It seems like such a shame not to buy this TV that has got so many rave reviews just because of some minor issues, mostly not visible in movies. (In my case that is, not if you're a sports fan obviously) Any more PS3 Bluray info is much appreciated! (Btw, I'm located in The Netherlands, but I think all technical spec is the same around Europe?)

Finally, something to consider maybe: if the problem is not too bad, is there even another TV that can compete with this one at this price, at this point in time? Do not all other TVs that offer this kind of quality at this price (or less) have worse issues and lesser quality?
i would,nt bother wasting your money mate, blueray playback is terrible, as soon as any action or movement occurs especially panning shots.I,ve had this tv since march and the only plus side is, it,s not bad at playing games on, otherwise it,s a complete load of CRAP, cant tell you how much i regret buying it:thumbsdow:thumbsdow:thumbsdow:thumbsdow
 
i would,nt bother wasting your money mate, blueray playback is terrible, as soon as any action or movement occurs especially panning shots.I,ve had this tv since march and the only plus side is, it,s not bad at playing games on, otherwise it,s a complete load of CRAP, cant tell you how much i regret buying it:thumbsdow:thumbsdow:thumbsdow:thumbsdow

I have to agree too - I had one and eventually sent it back, no TV is perfect but the faults on this one were too much for me - since then I have bought an LG 55LX9900 and although not 100% perfect it is a much better TV than the VT20 is just about every way.
 
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I ahve to agree too - I had one and eventually sent it back, no TV is perfect but the faults on this one were too much for me - since then I have bought an LG 55LX9900 and although not 100% perfect it is a much better TV than the VT20 is just about every way.
i cant beleive i,ve wasted over two grand on it. Its the first panasonic i,ve bought and i wont be purchasing another, i just wish i could get my money back:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
 
i cant beleive i,ve wasted over two grand on it. Its the first panasonic i,ve bought and i wont be purchasing another, i just wish i could get my money back:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

How long have you had it and where did you buy from?
 
at first you tend to be blind to the issues and live in denial of them, but any movement on this tv is terrable, people harp on about freesat and normal tv, but its just as bad on blueray, watched inglorious basterds on thursday and any shot with movement,s and bingo :thumbsdow:thumbsdow:thumbsdow:thumbsdow:thumbsdow
 
Hi everyone. I'm new to this forum and was reading up on the VT20. Still haven't decided if I'm going to buy one or not, mainly because of all the issues listed in this thread. Let me first say that I regret that there is no clear solution yet. (Especially for all VT20 owners who experience issues) If I do decide to buy one I'd be happy to post my own findings on here to help out. (Though I'm nowhere near as technical as most people here)

Anyway, I was wondering if someone could tell me if the issue should be a dealbreaker for me, considering I will watch no television broadcasts at all on this TV, only Bluray and DVD film. Also I will use it to play games. (All using a PS3 which will be directly connected to the VT20, or maybe in the future via a new Onkyo receiver) My viewing distance is about 2,5 metres and my current TV is a 4-year-old Samsung HD-Ready LCD, so anything is an improvement for me really.

From what I've read so far most issues seem to be with the lines in football matches, and only very minor when watching Bluray content. However, not everywhere does it say if the Bluray is viewed from a PS3 and utilizing the different output options it has. Also, in one reply I read someone was amazed by watching films on the VT20, then in another I read someone is experiencing problems with it. Couldn't it be that when looking for the problem, you'll find it in places where it's not even there? Like someone mentioned before, sometimes a film is just shot in a certain way and movement is a little blurry anyway, due to the camerawork and recorded format.

It seems like such a shame not to buy this TV that has got so many rave reviews just because of some minor issues, mostly not visible in movies. (In my case that is, not if you're a sports fan obviously) Any more PS3 Bluray info is much appreciated! (Btw, I'm located in The Netherlands, but I think all technical spec is the same around Europe?)

Finally, something to consider maybe: if the problem is not too bad, is there even another TV that can compete with this one at this price, at this point in time? Do not all other TVs that offer this kind of quality at this price (or less) have worse issues and lesser quality?

Hi and welcome here. :smashin:

And I'm sorry but your question as it is framed is too subjectively skewed to elicit an objective answer.

Meantime here is a BBC White Paper from 2008 entitled High Frame-Rate Television and I hope that it provides readers with an insight into how their thinking has had to change in recent years.

http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/whp/whp-pdf-files/WHP169.pdf
 
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That is a great document and supports what I've been banging on about for years (mostly via 'discussions' with [-]dim[/-] blinkered film making types who think 24fps is the pinnacle of film making).
 
reading this months stuff magazine nothing there about all whats being said here?
all he magazine reviews ive seen no probloms
on there review i would buy
reading this forum i think again?
 
reading this months stuff magazine nothing there about all whats being said here?
all he magazine reviews ive seen no probloms
on there review i would buy
reading this forum i think again?
no magazine would say what each problem these tvs have. they must get paid by them not to say anythin
 

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