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Panasonic & Vertical Banding.

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by paulfoley, Nov 11, 2004.

  1. paulfoley

    paulfoley
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    I thought I'd complain directly to Panasonic about the Vertical Banding on my AE500 to see wether they could take it back & tweak it out? Here is their response (about 3 weeks after the initial email). Thought you might be interested ?

    Thank you for your email enquiry.

    Firstly, please accept my sincere apologies for the uncharacteristic delay
    in our response. Investigations of this issue both at the factory and in
    our workshop took longer than anticipated.

    After many hours of testing and much careful consideration, our factory
    have concluded that the issues you have described with your PTAE500 were
    found to be within manufacturer's specification and tolerance. Therefore,
    as the unit is not inherently faulty, we will be unable to effect a repair.


    I asked :

    Please can you explain what you mean by "After many hours of testing". None of your people have even set eyes on my Projector.

    I would also like you to comment on the fact that some AE500 Owners see no Vertical Banding & some see terrible banding? It sounds like pot luck to me ?

    What quality control do you actually employ at your factory to test / tweak this problem ?

    Regards & dissapointed



    Thank you for your email enquiry.

    Both the factory and the workshop have tested other customer units with
    similar issues and sealed LCD units from the factory. There is a set
    specification for the LCD unit and the banding has been found to fall
    within that specification. There are no planned tweaks for this product
    unfortunately as it is now a discontinued model. As this is found to be
    within specification and not a fault, the factory does not have any
    resolution.

    I am sorry that we could not be of further assistance to you on this
    occasion.

    Regards,
    Jill Farrar
    Customer Support


    Looks like we'll just have to accept that VB exists on Panny LCD's.

    If only Sony's models were Short Throw I'd willingly pay the extra few hundred quid for no VB!
     
  2. Darwock

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    I'm sure it's been reported here that people have had AE500s etc taken back and fixed by Panasonic for this in the past?
     
  3. paulfoley

    paulfoley
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    Can anybody that has done this please step forward?
     
  4. pierrev

    pierrev
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    I sent mine back (AE500 bought in July) about 2 months ago - they say that they have replaced the LCD block and I am expecting it back early next week - as to whether the VB (or FPN) improves at all ... I will let you know
     
  5. paulfoley

    paulfoley
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    I'm really just interested in anybodies experience that involve simply sending it back purely to fix the VB ?
     
  6. paulfoley

    paulfoley
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    Just read about the following on the US AVSForum :

    Flicker Tweak...Panny AE700-500-300...

    Stumbled onto something interesting
    I think I may have stumbled onto something quite interesting with respect to adjusting flicker on Panasonic projectors. I am a proud owner of an AE300 and have known about the flicker tweak trick to reduce vertical banding and peekaboo effect for the last 2 years. I had assumed that I had tweaked my unit the best I could but have always been bothered by VB...fairly prevalent on my unit. All the threads I remembered reading, the green panel was the problematic one and needed the most adjusting. I decided to go back in and have a look today and tinker around some more. My settings were in the neighborhood of green 73, blue 77, red 75. So I thought I would try and match the blue and red settings to the green and see what would happen. (73,73,73) So, after doing this for both table and ceiling mount I went back to my desktop (standard windows....excellent test for VB) and low and behold....My VB is all but gone...I mean a really noticeable difference. I was in the middle of Star Trek Nemesis and decided to finish it up...I could not find a hint of VB anywhere or Peekaboo. I will now give Master and Commander a try as it is the King of VB on my machine. I encourage all Panny owners to give this a shot....Just mark down your original numbers first in case it doesn't work and please post back your results.



    I'll give it a try tonight & report back.
     
  7. Darwock

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    I have just tried doing what was said about going for more flicker rather than less - guess what, no VB, but with one problematic side effect - the colours are so oversaturated that the entire picture is practically white, lol. And in fact the PJ started making clicky noises so I don't think it liked it much.
     
  8. pierrev

    pierrev
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    this is exactly what I did , I tried two PJ's in the shop where I bought it and both had very visible vertical lines on certain scenes , I thought perhaps this was normal or tweakable (having already browsed these forums a bit) it was only when I saw one on demonstration in another shop where I DIDNT see the vertical lines that I thought of sending it back- I am just still not sure whether what I was seeing was VB or FPN - the two seem to get mixed up in these forums. What my PJ displayed was thin fixed vertical lines which stood out prominently on certain colours and backgrounds - I spent the first few weeks tweaking with the flicker controls and Gammas etc. and while I could make them more prominent or fade them slightly- they never got to that 'only see them if I really look hard for them' stage that a lot of owners claim - so back it went .
     
  9. Darwock

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    So pierrev what were the magic words you used to get them to do the repair, since it's pretty obvious from the first post that they are not keen to help!?
     
  10. pierrev

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    I just explained what had happened in quite a lengthy e-mail , too long to quote here but including description of what the screen looks like eg. The lines can best be described as being like a rain streaked window or a surface that has been finished with a bad varnish job!

    I also pointed out that it was visible from many different sources (DVD, Sky and laptops through VGA) and the fact that although I had seen 2 machines that clearly exhibited the same sort of symptoms , I had seen a third that did'nt.

    What may have helped is that I had read a review of the AE500 in the July edition of 'WHAT HOME CINEMA', and mentioned that it would have been unthinkable for their review PJ to have those same symptons and not get spotted by the reviewer.

    I presume that when they looked at my PJ, they felt it was not within acceptable levels and consequently ordered the replacement LCD block (which took many weeks to arrive - thus the delay). They had supplied me with a loan AE100, which confirmed for me that my projector did have excessive VB/FPN, as although the PQ on the AE100 is way lower than the AE500 , there is nowhere near the same level of VB/FPN on it as I had been used to.

    I repeat , it remains to be seen just what improvement the new LCD block makes , perhaps it will cure my FPN or VB and replace it with VB or FPN, at least then I would know the difference.
     
  11. thepostman

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    HITACHI PJ-TX100 Short throw lens no VB!! £900 and Hi Def compatible....why is no one considering this Gem?? :clap:
     
  12. Comer

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    It does seem strange that people here and on Avs ars so obsessed with the Panasonic given the reported VB, white flashes and higher fan noise when ceiling mounted. I went for the Z3, it arrived yesterday and I spent the whole day setting it up, (had to move my ceiling mount) and so far I'm very pleased, vertical banding is practically non-existent, picture quality is excellent from HCPC and it is really quiet. That said I have read of two people on Avs who have had their Z3s lock up when being fed HDMI signal. So perhaps I have that to look forward to. :suicide:

    What are u gonna do?
     
  13. Darwock

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    Comer, I think you'll find the people who are discussing the 700 and are "obsessed" with it are the ones who have already bought it, so it's hardly surprising is it. These aren't just forums for prospective buyers.

    P.S. "vertical banding is practically non-existent" hahaa! Not so smug now then, are we, as that description fits perfectly to the level of VB on my 700 as well. Perhaps we're just the only ones not in denial :laugh:
     
  14. Comer

    Comer
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    I really do not like the tone of your response. I was not in any way knocking the AE700 or the people that have bought one. I was simple saying that there seems to be alot of intrest in this projector. Where did you find any "smugness" in my post? In fact, the last part of the post is completly apposed to any kind of smugness when you consider that I have acknowledged that my projector choice could also come to cause me grief.

    As for the vertical banding, I am very susceptible and I spent two hours looking for it on the Z3 last night. The amount I noticed is equal to if not less than the VB/FPN I noticed on my sony HS10
     
  15. Darwock

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    Apologies, it was the third post I'd read in a row intimating that there was too much discussion of the AE700, so my tolerance ran low.
     
  16. thepostman

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    Darwock we are only asking why there is so much talk about the 700 because it is not the only PJ on the market but there does seem to be an obsession with the next Panny etc now there new models on the market such as the Z3 and Hitachi,Sony..........it's just that as owners of the makes we don't seem to have these problems or at least no whwere as near and i guess in our own way we are using the forum and power of the Web to say don't get caught out by Panny Hype..........put it this way neither Z3 owners or TX100 owners are taking flicker settings etc....it simply is the way it is...keep an open mind on your next purchase, i was one of those who got caught up in the panny100 wave and was very happy howver it's a different game out there you only have to see the number of not pleased with the 700 threads against the not pleased with Z3 or Tx-100 threads quite simply we are too busy watching movies...

    hope this doesn't come across wrongly when read............ :)
     
  17. Darwock

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    Yes as you stated there are a greater number of complaint threads compared to other projectors, but that stands to reason because (as you also stated) it is one of the most popular on the market. To put it in perspective there hasn't been any talk of waiting lists for the Sanyos or Hitachis either. More people buy Panasonic so there will be more discussion both positive AND negative.
     
  18. thepostman

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    I think the 700 will be continue to be the best seller but on the second hand market........get rid of quickly before the word spreads and prices plummet.... :eek:
     
  19. Darwock

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    Please stop giving bad advice - anyone who has a problem with their Panasonic AE700 can no doubt return it for refund or exchange, selling it would be madness.

    And I think you have made your tiresome views quite clear, would it be possible for you to refrain from spamming every bit of AE700 discussion with it?
     
  20. ELV

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    Also Postman not everyone can afford to sell their P700'S but i think you will probally be aware of that fact anyhow!!!!
     
  21. thepostman

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    Calm down matey crikey...... :thumbsdow
     
  22. paulfoley

    paulfoley
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    Well got round to trying it at last & it has helped. Firstly I disconnected the leads from the mains, reconnected & then adjusted green to least flicker (2D I think?), I then set all the other panels to 2D. VB is reduced but hasnt disappeared altogether, will try some different values over the weekend.

    Also to the guy above that asks why we dont all go for the new Hitachis ? Well I'm only 8 feet from my 96" screen. With the pannys Smooth Screen Technology I see no visble pixels. I think I probably wouldnt with the Hitachi ?
     
  23. dnoon

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    Just got my screen installed (83" Draper) and placed the PJ close to its final location. With the tweaking and my HTPC feeding it 720p this projector looks amazing, I may be just giddy but the VB seems to be significantly reducing. I now have 18 hours on the machine. Its not gone yet but much improved from day one. :rotfl:

    The powerstrip settings are below using VGA. It places the screen slightly to the left and I had to use the horizontal shift on the PJ to level things out. I have not had chance to try DVI-HDMI yet. Good luck to all! Now back to 7 foot matrix before the fun police get home.

    PowerStrip timing parameters:
    1280x720=1280,96,32,288,720,5,7,20,75838,274

    Generic timing details for 1280x720:
    HFP=96 HSW=32 HBP=288 kHz=45 VFP=5 VSW=7 VBP=20 Hz=59

    Linux modeline parameters:
    "1280x720" 75.838 1280 1376 1408 1696 720 725 732 752 -hsync +vsync
     
  24. JEDIBLADE

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    I seem to missing something here, I own an AE500 but nowhere are the settings mentioned for Generic Timing or where I can set a RED ,GREEN or BLUE level of 73 ? I get terrible VB and also after only 15 hours of operation four of the pixels have turned green ! Does this mean they are dead pixels ?
     
  25. paulfoley

    paulfoley
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    Jediblade

    Those timings are not in the AE500 menus but instead for a complicated Software Tool called Powerstrip. If you feed your 500 with a HTPC then they would be very useful. If however you use a DVD Player then dont worry about them.

    As for the 4 duff pixels in 15 hours, well I would demand a snappy exchange or refund from your dealer, looks like you've been sold a duffer.

    Hope that helps?
     
  26. JEDIBLADE

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    Paul

    Thanks, yes this is helpful. I'm very dissapointed with the projector as I'm getting terrible VB a lot worse than on my AE100. Do you know if I'm within my rights to have a refund ? I bought the projector less than a month ago from PRC.

    Cheers

    Dean
     
  27. paulfoley

    paulfoley
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    Yes but not for the VB (Panasonic regard it as within spec) but probably for the failing pixels. Explain to PRC that you have had 4 fail in 12 hours & I'm sure you'll get another. Then try all of the suggested VB Tweaks on this site & the AVSForums & you should reduce it to a minimum. You may of course be lucky & not get any out of the factory (This is what annoyed me so much to start this thread in the first place) ?

    :smashin:
     
  28. pierrev

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    just received my AE500 back from Panasonic , I was told by e-mail (when I asked - there was no paperwork or receipt or anything) that they were replacing the LCD panel and can report that VB/FPN has DEFINITELY been reduced to a point where although not totally absent, it is certainly not as glaring as it was before. I suspect it is now a case of me trying to forget that VB ever existed - and to stop looking for it and other faults and imperfections.

    If this projector had been like it is now from the start , I too would probably have wondered what all the fuss was about VB - but there are clearly some panels that have it and some that dont. I am sure that Panasonic would not have replaced mine if they felt it was within 'acceptable' levels.
     
  29. paulfoley

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    Pierre

    Had you originally complained & sent it to Panasonic as a "Vertical Banding Problem To Fix" or as something else ?

    :hiya:
     
  30. pierrev

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    this is the bulk of what I sent after a bit of waffle about how impressed I was with the colours etc. I purposely didnt use the terms 'Vertical Banding' or 'Fixed Projector Noise' though as you will see, that is clearly what I was describing (whichever one of those it is). I did mention that I had seen 3 machines, 2 of which showed the same symptoms and I didn't mention that I had tried the 'Flicker Adjust' as we're not meant to know about that !

    Incidentally if I look at the Green flicker adjust screen now , although I still cant get the Green steady (unlike Red and Blue - I think most people acknowledge this) - it is nowhere near as 'dirty' as it was before they fixed it.

    The Fault

    The projector has fixed vertical lines that show themselves permanently
    irrespective of type of input - I have used the following connections:-

    DVD Player via Component (Y-PB-PR)
    Sky+ via S-video
    Digital and Analog TV via Video
    2 Laptops via VGA

    the lines appear on all connections at all times and are clearly visible even
    from distances well over the 'twice X screen width' as generally recommended - only being masked where the screen is dark enough or made up of deep and varied colours. There are particularly prominent bands at various intervals across the screen , but the lines are NOT totally uniform (ie NOT like what I understand to be the Screen Door effect). They can best be described as being like a rain streaked window or a surface that has been finished with a bad varnish job !

    There are NO Horizontal lines so this is not the screendoor or chickenwire
    effect.

    they show themselves worst on pale screens (smoky scenes , sky and cloudy
    panoramas etc) but are also particularly bad on 'greens' eg. football .
    What makes them more irritating is that if there is any horizontal movement on the screen ie panning left and right, the picture gives the impression of going in and out of focus as it pans over the lines. This makes football and rugby (which have constant left and right movement) virtually unwatcheable and at worst headache inducing.

    I have tried various 'tweaks' - adjusting Contrast, Brightness, gamma etc
    all to no avail..............
     

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