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Panasonic SD90 flicker issue

mirrorman

Established Member
When playing back video clips(1920x1080 50fps) on tv or pc i get this really annoying flickering.
My tv is the Samsung PS50C490 50" 720P 600HZ and pc monitor is lg flatron m227wd full hd.
Thanks for any help with this issue.:confused:
 

grahamlthompson

In memoriam
Try turning off all the fancy video processing on the TV, especially the 600Hz processing.
 

12harry

Distinguished Member
Odd that OP complains about PC playback also......is this a straight play of the downloaded file...or via USB

You need to provide more info
and maybe what you've done to solve it.
e.g. have you tried it on someone else's TV, burnt a DVD, etc.

What for example is the original footage? - that needs to be very steady for any sensible test - you probably know this, but haven't said.



EDIT
Mirrorman (#5), I wonder if it's the "p" ? Have you got an Editing prog, (even Win.Live Movie Maker) -&- burn a DVD? That should play like an "ordinary" DVD - presumably that plays OK - (?).
 
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grahamlthompson

In memoriam
Odd that OP complains about PC playback also......is this a straight play of the downloaded file...or via USB

You need to provide more info
and maybe what you've done to solve it.
e.g. have you tried it on someone else's TV, burnt a DVD, etc.

What for example is the original footage? - that needs to be very steady for any sensible test - you probably know this, but haven't said.

PC monitors may have synch problems with 1080p50 as well as TV's.

I was presuming replay direct from camcorder with hdmi connection.
 

mirrorman

Established Member
I just took a few more clips today and on checking them back on the tv i would say it's more of a shimmer than a flicker.
i'm useing the highest video setting 1920x1080p.I have tried playing it direct from camcorder to tv via mini hdmi cable and also card adapter to PS3.
There's no way of turning off the 600Hz processing.I've to try playback on another tv yet.
 

grahamlthompson

In memoriam
I just took a few more clips today and on checking them back on the tv i would say it's more of a shimmer than a flicker.
i'm useing the highest video setting 1920x1080p.I have tried playing it direct from camcorder to tv via mini hdmi cable and also card adapter to PS3.
There's no way of turning off the 600Hz processing.I've to try playback on another tv yet.

Never seen a TV yet you can't turn off the any off the video processing extras, It might not be labelled 600Hz or whatever. Strangely the makers UK site has no record of the model including a spec or manual.
 

mirrorman

Established Member
Never seen a TV yet you can't turn off the any off the video processing extras, It might not be labelled 600Hz or whatever. Strangely the makers UK site has no record of the model including a spec or manual.

Well i've gone through the tv menu and there's nothing there to change anything to do with 600Hz processor.
There's white balance,gamma,flesh tones,black levels,etc etc.
The reason you can't find any info on the Samsung site is proberly because it's been discontinued they're on the D series now.Here's a ebay link with some specs listed.Samsung PS50C490 50 Inch HD Ready Freeview 3D Plasma TV | eBay
 

PhilipL

Prominent Member
Hi

Well i've gone through the tv menu and there's nothing there to change anything to do with 600Hz processor.
There's white balance,gamma,flesh tones,black levels,etc etc.
The reason you can't find any info on the Samsung site is proberly because it's been discontinued they're on the D series now.Here's a ebay link with some specs listed.Samsung PS50C490 50 Inch HD Ready Freeview 3D Plasma TV | eBay

Sounds like moire over fine detail, see this link Moiré pattern - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The problem is more visible with all the lovely detail in 1080/50p when played back on something that isn't exactly the same resolution, as essentially you have a grid of pixels behind another grid of pixels and with any slight movement it can create patterns that flicker. Using a tripod can help as busy backgrounds are then held steady and you don't see the patterning come and go with slight movement of the camera

Also use the picture setting menus on the camcorder and reduce sharpness down to minus -3 or -4 and try again, alternatively turn the sharpness down on your TV for video already recorded. It will help.

Regards

Phil
 

mirrorman

Established Member
Hi



Sounds like moire over fine detail, see this link Moiré pattern - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The problem is more visible with all the lovely detail in 1080/50p when played back on something that isn't exactly the same resolution, as essentially you have a grid of pixels behind another grid of pixels and with any slight movement it can create patterns that flicker. Using a tripod can help as busy backgrounds are then held steady and you don't see the patterning come and go with slight movement of the camera

Also use the picture setting menus on the camcorder and reduce sharpness down to minus -3 or -4 and try again, alternatively turn the sharpness down on your TV for video already recorded. It will help.

Regards

Phil

Hi Phil.
Thanks for the info.I was thinking like yourself that the problem might be playing the 1920x1080 50fps clip on a 1280x720 tv.
I will have to try it out on a friends full HD tv.
When you say reduce the sharpness down to -3 or 2 can you only set this when shooting in manual mode?
 

PhilipL

Prominent Member
Hi

Hi Phil.
Thanks for the info.I was thinking like yourself that the problem might be playing the 1920x1080 50fps clip on a 1280x720 tv.
I will have to try it out on a friends full HD tv.
When you say reduce the sharpness down to -3 or 2 can you only set this when shooting in manual mode?

Yes it is probably a manual mode setting. Although even if you are in manual mode everything is automatic until you change a setting.

You may still see the same patterning on a Full HD TV although not as bad, to reduce this as much as possible if the TV has the option make sure overscan is off, this might be called something like "Pixel to Pixel mapping", in which case switch to on. This is because TVs generally enlarge the picture to crop the edges slightly, so if that is happening your 1920x1080 video essentially becomes something like 1700x900 stretched to fill 1920x1080, so you still have the same problem of pixels not lining up exactly with the display.

You may not eliminate moire completely, some may be added by the sensor and captured that way, other effects are added by the encoder when compressing. It's an age old problem but something us home users never had to worry about as resolutions we could capture were so low moire didn't manifest itself, and on analogue TVs it was less of an issue anyway.

Other options, and how it would be dealt with in the broadcast world, would be to add a low pass filter to remove some of the fine detail on troublesome footage or simply avoid very detailed scenes. Also professional cameras have a shallower depth of field so it's easier to put busy detailed back drops out of focus.

I have a shot with some leylandii bushes in the background with the sun shining on them, virtually every leaf was captured in great detail, however as I moved the camera the flickering effect was quite nauseating on my half HD TV. It was improved greatly on a true 1080p TV, although still apparent due to the fact it was interlaced footage, and you get similar issues when interlaced footage is de-interlaced, grids of lines and lines of pixels.

Regards

Phil
 

rogs

Prominent Member
I don't have the option to record as 1080p, but I do like to convert to progressive for my edited outputs.

I find 720/50p gives me my best results -and no moiré problems of any note.

I wonder if converting to 720p drops the perceived resolution more than reducing the sharpness 3 or 4 points on a 1080p file?
If you have to reduce the sharpness to any extent, to deal with the moiré, I'm not sure you wouldn't be better off with 720p?

Still not convinced the consumer video world is coping with 1080p very well, as yet........
 

grahamlthompson

In memoriam
Hi Phil.
Thanks for the info.I was thinking like yourself that the problem might be playing the 1920x1080 50fps clip on a 1280x720 tv.
I will have to try it out on a friends full HD tv.
When you say reduce the sharpness down to -3 or 2 can you only set this when shooting in manual mode?

I think you will find your display has 768 lines and 13xx columns. 1280 x 720 displays are as rare as hens teeth.
 

mirrorman

Established Member
I think you will find your display has 768 lines and 13xx columns. 1280x720 displays are as rare as hens teeth.

Tv is advertised as hd ready 720p so i took it for granted that it is 720x1280.But i can see in the manual it says display resolution is 1360x768 like you said.
 

12harry

Distinguished Member
Mirrorman, I suspect many consumers have been fooled by the blurring between HD and FullHD and frankly I blame the BSI who appear to be toothless, yet should work hand-in-hand with Trading Standards.

Grahamlthompson + others
On A TV thread (another Forum, here) I am considering a Tesco 3D bundle - that TV does claim 1080p - so I'm wondering if my HD footage 1080i burnt to DVD (720 I presume), will be shown correctly....any views?

Later I hope to buy a BlueRay writer and wonder if the 3D BD player will accept my DVD's ( it say it will paly DVD's, but suspect this may mean "Commercial DVD's"

Perhaps I should take one of my DVD's and demand they play it....they appear to lack any 3D BD discs - rather odd that....
 
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grahamlthompson

In memoriam
Tv is advertised as hd ready 720p so i took it for granted that it is 720x1280.But i can see in the manual it says display resolution is 1360x768 like you said.

I really do not understand why TV's are advertised as 720P, its complete rubbish and highly misleading.

720P is 1280 x 720 pixels at 50 fps as you clearly understand, that's a HD Video standard not a display standard, Similary 1080i can be transmitted at either 1440 x 1080 or 1920 x 1080 at 25 fps, The i simply means that the data arrives in two seperate chunks (known as fields), In the UK the first field has lines 1 3 5 etc and the second has 2 4 6 8 etc. (basically a hangover from the way a crt produces the picture)

If you have a HD Ready Display like yours it's guaranteed to work with 720p50 (50 fps) or 1080i50 (50 fields. 25 fps), unless it has the new EICTA logo (HD Ready 1080P). If it actually works with 1080p50 (50 fps) thats a bonus.

Try some footage using the best 1080i preset on your camcorder, you may be amazed as to how how good it looks on your TV.
 

mirrorman

Established Member
I really do not understand why TV's are advertised as 720P, its complete rubbish and highly misleading.

720P is 1280 x 720 pixels at 50 fps as you clearly understand, that's a HD Video standard not a display standard, Similary 1080i can be transmitted at either 1440 x 1080 or 1920 x 1080 at 25 fps, The i simply means that the data arrives in two seperate chunks (known as fields), In the UK the first field has lines 1 3 5 etc and the second has 2 4 6 8 etc. (basically a hangover from the way a crt produces the picture)

If you have a HD Ready Display like yours it's guaranteed to work with 720p50 (50 fps) or 1080i50 (50 fields. 25 fps), unless it has the new EICTA logo (HD Ready 1080P). If it actually works with 1080p50 (50 fps) thats a bonus.

Try some footage using the best 1080i preset on your camcorder, you may be amazed as to how how good it looks on your TV.

Any idea which one out of these 4 presets is 1080i?
HA/HG/HX/HE they are all named as 1920 and no further information apart from asending speeds.
 

PhilipL

Prominent Member
Hi

I don't have the option to record as 1080p, but I do like to convert to progressive for my edited outputs.

I find 720/50p gives me my best results -and no moiré problems of any note.

I wonder if converting to 720p drops the perceived resolution more than reducing the sharpness 3 or 4 points on a 1080p file?
If you have to reduce the sharpness to any extent, to deal with the moiré, I'm not sure you wouldn't be better off with 720p?

Still not convinced the consumer video world is coping with 1080p very well, as yet........

Yes the conversion will be losing some detail in the process and of course it is a lower resolution so by definition has less detail. Depending on what software is doing the conversion it may well be applying various filters to remove interlacing artefacts which reduce moire also.

The trouble with 1080/50p there is so much detail, even converting to 720p may not resolve it completely as you are not going through a de-interlacing step, so you end up with pin sharp and full of the maximum detail possible in the 720p resolution. Also moire problems vary with the display and even playback device.

I really do not understand why TV's are advertised as 720P, its complete rubbish and highly misleading.

I think it is fair to advertise them as such as that is the maximum HD video resolution they could ever resolve. Also it is only recently we've had TVs that allow overscan to be turned off so prior to that you never had a one-to-one pixel relationship matching source and panel resolutions precisely anyway. It's certainly more honest then advertising them as HD Ready that's for sure, not that the majority of consumers would understand what the 720p meant anyway. I'm guessing the odd resolution dimensions helped with resizing SD resolutions more cleanly, which at the time the majority of 720p displays were first on the market, SD was all the majority of people had to watch on them.

Still not convinced the consumer video world is coping with 1080p very well, as yet........

It's getting better and will continue to improve now the manufacturers have a reason to add a new logo (AVCHD 2.0) onto their plastic piano black fascias! Sony already officially support AVCHD 2.0 on their recent Blu-ray players and Panasonic Blu-ray players will play 1080/50p perfectly over DLNA, with official AVCHD 2.0 support only a firmware update away I expect.

Regards

Phil
 

grahamlthompson

In memoriam
Any idea which one out of these 4 presets is 1080i?
HA/HG/HX/HE they are all named as 1920 and no further information apart from asending speeds.

They are all 1080i

Guessing but HA is going to be 1920 x 1080 (17Mbps-vbr), HG 1920 x 1080 (13Mbps - vbr), HX 1440 x 1080 (9Mbps - vbr) and HE 1440 x 1080 (5Mbps - vbr)
 

mirrorman

Established Member
They are all 1080i

Guessing but HA is going to be 1920 x 1080 (17Mbps-vbr), HG 1920 x 1080 (13Mbps - vbr), HX 1440 x 1080 (9Mbps - vbr) and HE 1440 x 1080 (5Mbps - vbr)

I just checked on Panny website and on the specs for recording mode are,
1080 / 50p (28Mbps / VBR), (1920 x 1080)
HA (17Mbps / VBR), (1920 x 1080)
HG (13Mbps / VBR), (1920 x 1080)
HX (9Mbps / VBR), (1920 x 1080)
HE (5Mbps / VBR), (1920 x 1080)
So do you mean all the H settings are 1080i even though they don't show the i.
 
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grahamlthompson

In memoriam
I just checked on Panny website and on the specs for recoding mode are,
1080 / 50p (28Mbps / VBR), (1920 x 1080)
HA (17Mbps / VBR), (1920 x 1080)
HG (13Mbps / VBR), (1920 x 1080)
HX (9Mbps / VBR), (1920 x 1080)
HE (5Mbps / VBR), (1920 x 1080)
So do you mean all the H settings are 1080i even though they don't show the i.

Yes they are AVCHD which does not support progressive formats above 1280 x 720. (AVCHD progressive a newer version does though)

AVCHD - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Use Mediainfo to find out what your clips are

MediaInfo


FULL-HD at 5Mbps must be pretty dire. Interesting to see how a clip recorded in HA mode looks on your telly.

Tree view from mediainfo for 1080i clip

General
ID : 0 (0x0)
Complete name : E:\StratfordJenniferMovie\00290.MTS
Format : BDAV
Format/Info : Blu-ray Video
File size : 34.8 MiB
Duration : 17s 123ms
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 17.0 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 18.0 Mbps

Video
ID : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : [email protected]
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=2, N=13
Codec ID : 27
Duration : 17s 80ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 15.9 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 16.0 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.307
Stream size : 32.4 MiB (93%)

Audio
ID : 4352 (0x1100)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension : CM (complete main)
Codec ID : 129
Duration : 17s 184ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 448 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Compression mode : Lossy
Delay relative to video : -80ms
Stream size : 940 KiB (3%)

Text
ID : 4608 (0x1200)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : PGS
Codec ID : 144
Duration : 16s 575ms
Delay relative to video : -80ms
 
Last edited:

mark45

Standard Member
I've also been having problems editing panasonic SD9 HD 1920 clips using Power Director 10 (Trial). They are very juddery compared with the original (It's a panning shot) and I'm in deep discussions on the Cyberlink forum who are very helpful but tell me my drivers need updating on my 18 month old PC. (quad core 8GB 1GB ATI card).

I am trying to produce H264 1920 X 1080 in PD10. Graham, are you saying I can't do better than 1280 X 720 anyway given the inptu? Could explain my problems!

Mark
 

grahamlthompson

In memoriam
I've also been having problems editing panasonic SD9 HD 1920 clips using Power Director 10 (Trial). They are very juddery compared with the original (It's a panning shot) and I'm in deep discussions on the Cyberlink forum who are very helpful but tell me my drivers need updating on my 18 month old PC. (quad core 8GB 1GB ATI card).

I am trying to produce H264 1920 X 1080 in PD10. Graham, are you saying I can't do better than 1280 X 720 anyway given the inptu? Could explain my problems!

Mark

Not quite. The original AVCHD codec only supports 1920 x 1080 interlaced content (25fps). The highest supported progressive resolution is 720p 1280 x 720 at 50fps. 1080p50 isn't AVCHD and not supported by most blu-ray players so no good burning this to BD blanks. Blu-ray (BDAV) itself only supports progressive 1920 x 1080 at 24fps (1080p24). Newer models may now support AVCHD progressive which does 1080P50 as I believe can the PS3 thanks to a firmware upgrade. Not familiar with PD10 you may be able to produce progressive 1080p50 output from 1080i by de-interlacing and frame doubling but short of a PC or media player you may struggle to find something to play it back with. Likely need a more advanced and customisable encoder to attempt this. HD Ready1080P TV's should handle the footage if you have a way of delivering it.

What format are the original clips shot in (what are you starting with). (see mediainfo in the above post)
 
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PhilipL

Prominent Member
Hi

I've also been having problems editing panasonic SD9 HD 1920 clips using Power Director 10 (Trial). They are very juddery compared with the original (It's a panning shot) and I'm in deep discussions on the Cyberlink forum who are very helpful but tell me my drivers need updating on my 18 month old PC. (quad core 8GB 1GB ATI card).

I am trying to produce H264 1920 X 1080 in PD10. Graham, are you saying I can't do better than 1280 X 720 anyway given the inptu? Could explain my problems!

Mark

Sounds like the output from PowerDirector is 1080/25p rather than 1080/50p, this would give rise to juddery pans.

Try outputting as 1080/50i, that will retain the original smooth motion and resolution, although due to interlacing resolution drops when anything is in motion, although it can still look very good. 720p may be better option.

Where would you like to watch your finished footage? That will often decide the final projects output.

Regards

Phil
 

rogs

Prominent Member
Tree view from mediainfo for 1080i clip

General
ID : 0 (0x0)
Complete name : E:\StratfordJenniferMovie\00290.MTS
Format : BDAV
Format/Info : Blu-ray Video
File size : 34.8 MiB
Duration : 17s 123ms
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 17.0 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 18.0 Mbps

Video
ID : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : [email protected]
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=2, N=13
Codec ID : 27
Duration : 17s 80ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 15.9 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 16.0 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.307
Stream size : 32.4 MiB (93%)

Audio
ID : 4352 (0x1100)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension : CM (complete main)
Codec ID : 129
Duration : 17s 184ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 448 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Compression mode : Lossy
Delay relative to video : -80ms
Stream size : 940 KiB (3%)

Text
ID : 4608 (0x1200)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : PGS
Codec ID : 144
Duration : 16s 575ms
Delay relative to video : -80ms


Looks as if the AVCHD specs have varied a bit over the years?
The spec sheet for my Panasonic SD5 has the HG format as CBR, not VBR (see here, page 130 ) and the MediaInfo tree for my 1080i files shows almost identical information to the one you quote, with the exception of the bit rate 'variable' line, which of course doesn't appear.
Interestingly, the 'Overall bit rate' is quoted as 12.7Mbps, with the 'Maximum Overall bit rate' is identical to your list, at 18.0Mbps - presumably the max possilbe rate for HG files?
In the 'Video' section, the bit rate is quoted as 11.9Mbps - again, of course, no 'variable' line.

Clearly, these specs are not 'set in stone', as it were.....
 
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PhilipL

Prominent Member
Hi

Looks as if the AVCHD specs have varied a bit over the years?
The spec sheet for my Panasonic SD5 has the HG format as CBR, not VBR (see here, page 130 ) and the MediaInfo tree for my 1080i files shows almost identical information to the one you quote, with the exception of the bit rate 'variable' line, which of course doesn't appear.
Interestingly, the 'Overall bit rate' is quoted as 12.7Mbps, with the 'Maximum Overall bit rate' is identical to your list, at 18.0Mbps - presumably the max possilbe rate for HG files?
In the 'Video' section, the bit rate is quoted as 11.9Mbps - again, of course, no 'variable' line.

Clearly, these specs are not 'set in stone', as it were.....

We don't get to see the full specifications only general specifications. Typically though with video the specification mostly seen is the maximum presumable resolutions and bit-rates. So usually the bit-rate can be anything as long as it doesn't exceed the maximums, so going lower is absolutely fine.

Regards

Phil
 

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