Panasonic Plasma sound sync problem

R

r22flyer

Guest
Ok - got the PW4 home and on test....

My JS Tech boxes haven't arrived yet so I tested the screen via the S-Video and my DVD player....

The DVD player sound was routed to the AV amp via an opto lead (for 5.1 decode as appropriate)...

Now, I mainly view music DVDs so the first DVD to be tried was a live concert video.... I found the lip sync/drum sync very poor indeed, yet this is not so when viewed via S-Video on my Sony TV....

I tried an experimental recording with my DV camcorder for sound sync and played back into the composite video input on the plasma and into normal L+R audio input on the amp and the sound sync seemed so close as to be OK.... but on S-Video again there was a significant sync difference???

I'm hoping that when I route my DVD through RGB to VGA (or component) that the sound sync problem doesn't exist... if it does that's a real problem for me and will make it unusable....

In all my reading of threads on Pana plasma users on this forum I can't recall seeing anything about sound sync... and searching specifically now does find the odd report (but I never thought to question this in my research!) - are any of you Pana owners out there music fans and got this problem??? How did you deal with it???

My AV amp is a Yamaha RDS800

Paul :(
 

CarlB

Well-known Member
If you're feeding an interlaced signal to the panel then it needs to process the image into progressive scan before display. This introduces a delay to the image of about 2 frames if I remember correctly.

I have the same panel and have noticed the same problem with DVDs. It is usually just in certain sections where perhaps ADR was used and the looping was slightly out, so the additional 2 frame delay exacerbates the issue.

Your options are:

1. Use an amp that offers a sync delay such as the Denon AVCA1SR.
2. Switch to a progressive scan DVD player that has better deinterlacing performance or enables sync such as the new high-end Sony model (out soon).

Personally I have just ordered a Denon 3800 to see if the problem is reduced with progressive input. If the problem still exists I will upgrade my AVCA1SE with the new board to allow me to introduce a delay to compensate. It is not critical for me as I only notice the problem occasionally on certain discs as I mentioned.
 
R

r22flyer

Guest
I had intended to connect my JVC S-VHS VCR to the plasma S-video input - does this mean that I'm still going to get the sound sync problem?

If so this is going to be a significant problem for me and the lack of posts so far indicates that there may be no solution to my problem....????

Thanks CarlB but the Denon amp solution is not affordable...
 
R

r22flyer

Guest
Got the JS convertor boxes today & tested them tonight...

The picture quality with the VGA or YUV box is absolutely superb...

However the sound sync is appalling... (note nothing to do with JS boxes) - the plasma processing delays the picture far too noticeably for me, especially on music. Just mode makes it worse!

As a musician with mainly music DVDs I find it so irritating when a snare drum beat has sounded before the stick appears to actually hit it!!! Similarly with guitar playing and lip sync...

Similar but variable results from the Sky Box - Sky News was awful..., a film on Bravo was awful sound sync yet looked OK when viewed on my Sony CRT TV. The image just looks so detached from the sound.

I priced up the Denon amp CarlB mentioned - wow £2500!! Unless I can find a suitable solution for my Yamaha amp then unfortunately its back to the CRT TV!!!!

I can't believe all you plasma owners tolerate it...

One very unhappy customer.....
 

Guest
Interesting thread this, I am soon to receive a Panny Plasma and would Like to hear views from other panny owners about this issue

is your Panny out of sync, its not a problem that I have seen discussed on here very much

I have a Denon 2802 AV Amp that is barely 3 months old, and swapping it for a more expensive model is not an option for me, just to get the sound in sync.

in my opinion when us punters spend nearly £4000 on the Latest gear, we should not have to spend a pile more ££££,s just to get it to an acceptable level of usability.

so come on Panny owners does your Panny have sync Problems
 

alex f

Standard Member
I just got a 37" Panasonic Plasma D4, Pioneer 747 DVD and Denon AVR3802. I got this kit as I thought it was a good setup but must mention that i am very dissapointed with Svideo and composit quality, sky is not too bad but still nowhere near "digital" quality?!

I have just watched the fast & furious and the lip sync was really bad in places but I have not noticed it on other DVD's. I watched it with progressive scan on and off and noticed no difference, the connections were component £150 cables!!!

I am waiting for the JS vga cable to arrive for the digibox and if it is still bad then it looks like I have waisted a fair few quid!

My old panasonic 4.3 29" tv seems clearer:mad:

Why do they bother putting svideo and composite inputs on a plasma if it looks worse than old fashioned analog?

Alex
 
R

r22flyer

Guest
Drastic part solution I know but....

I connected a TC-Electronics M-One digital effects unit into the audio setup.... I set a stereo delay up with no repeats and a full wet mix with a delay of 100mS - this cured almost all the lip sync problems from Sky TV.

Unfortunately the digital I/O does not work with Dolby 5.1 or DTS - bugger!
 

codlord

Active Member
I did notice sound delays when I first got my plasma - fiddling with the delay options on my amp fixed the problem for most DVD's but there do seem to be some dvds worse than others, so on a few I still get a bit of a sync problem.

I am intending to upgrade to a prog-scan dvd player soon which should come with a sound delay built in and fix this problem.
 

CarlB

Well-known Member
As I mentioned earlier, don't forget you can upgrade to a prog-scan DVD player which may have better processing and no noticeable delay. As the plasma panel is then not having to convert an interlaced image to prog-scan there would be no further delay added to the image.

I am trying this option first and have a Denon 3800 on order, due to arrive next week. If this does not work I will look at upgrading my AVCA1SE amp with the new processing board, which makes it almost the same spec as the AVCA1SR, including audio delay processing. I would then start with 60ms delay and see how it looks.

Will keep you posted how it is when the new DVD player arrives.
 

Guest
Reading some of the answers on here, seems to be a mixed bag, I am in the market for a Pro Scan DVD Player shortly but its the Sky Viewing that is going to be the problem by the sound of things

Forgetting DVD Playback whats the general opinion of Sky sync issues

my Denon amp has a speaker distance setup, would this be enough to compensate any issues.

it Lets me put how many Ft & inches I sit from the speakers, so if I say put the distance to its furthest extreme say 25Ft
when I,m actually sat about 9ft away

what do you guys think?????
 
Y

YYZ

Guest
There are two problems: -

1st : All plasmas as a result of the conversion from interlaced to progressive will introduce an element of delay to the video.

2nd I'm lead to believe that "flags" are used on DVD's to sync the sound to the video, some do it better than others so you can get a bit of a mixed bag.

When you add the two together it can get quite annoying. You really have no option other than to reduce the amount of work the panel has to do in processing i.e prog scan DVD and/or get an amp with a sound delay adjustment.

I use a Fujitsu 4229 with an iScan Pro di-interlacer and apart from the odd DVD I don't experience any problems. I suppose its how sensitive you are to it and I have heard the music DVD's are some of the worst culprits when it comes to this problem
 
R

r22flyer

Guest
I have discovered a German made delay unit called a Vigatec Wave that is specifically made for this application - it delays ananlogue and digital audio.... haven't tracked down a supplier or price yet though....
 
G

Glenn Keen

Guest
What lip sync problem! :confused:

I'm currently watching Sky on my Panny Plasma and have NO lip sync problem! Also DVD and video's are fine.

All sound is played through my Denon 10SE amp. I',ve not changed my setting at all, same ones as I used with my old Philips tv.

Could this problem be a fault on the Plasma?


Glenn.
 
M

MoonsSpawn

Guest
I have to concurr with Glen's comments. I have a Panny 42" and have been using SKY+ through S-Video with no lip synch problems at all. My sound is routed through a Denon A1SR but I have made no changes to the audio delay settings. DVD's are a similar story. No lip synch probs at all.

Moons.
 

alex f

Standard Member
I have only noticed it so far on dvd, the fast and furious. I have been told that uk dvds are more prone to lip sync than US dvds but I don't have any yet. If I notice it on any others I will post them here

Alex
 

CarlB

Well-known Member
It will be more common to notice it on DVD when poor ADR recording means the dialogue was slightly lagging the video in the first place. The extra few milliseconds added by the plasma processing will then make the error noticeable.
 
R

r22flyer

Guest
Glenn/Moons

You are obviously not sensitive to the plasma processing delay but it really is there on all Pana PW4 plasmas and its not a fault - it really must be there because of the PAL interlaced scan to progressive scan conversion. Tests have shown that its around 80mS delay in video compared to audio... think about it - the plasma has to store one field of an interlaced picture, then store the other field, then display it - watch the same source on a plasma side by side a normal CRT TV and you will see that cuts between scenes occur at different times - the plasma being later. It seems not as bad with NTSC sources but there may be a technical reason for this.

Your perception, I admit, depends on the programme material you watch. On Sky News and BBC News 24 its very noticeable when watching (and listening) to the news readers. On music videos its far more noticeable.... it looks awful. On most other material including fast paced films with little close up diaglogue you probably do not notice it.

Judging by the poor editing on some pop type videos that you see on MTV (and the like) and the awful way some people mime to their pre-recorded tracks means that most people must have become tolerant of some lip sync difference or have simply never noticed it.

However, I edit video and lip sync is vitally import and often moving a video clip a couple of frames can make a difference to how it looks. Also being a musician, where timing is critical, makes me sensitive to it. I have to do something about it.

Anyway, the point is that AV manufactures know its there because AV amps are starting to appear with a configurable delay up to 180mS for audio... my guess is that as plasma and projectors become more popular that more AV amps will include this 'feature'.

My TC M-One gets round it for now - but ulimately (being a Yamaha fan) means I will have to get a Yamaha AV amp which has this adjustable overall delay feature.

Paul
 
G

Glenn Keen

Guest
Hmmmm,

just watching Kerrang on SKY+ through SVIDEO, sound trough my 10SE amp and there is NO delay!

Now I know that the screen is doing all the processing but I'm just not getting an lip sync problems, and I'm looking realy closely!

Just looked at SKY news, no lip sync problem there either!

Strange!
:confused:

Glenn.
 
M

markbuffyfan

Guest
Well tomorrow im back onto my dealer .I have just purchased a 50 inch panasonic plasma and a denon 3802 and loop this through the dmr 30 dvd recorder into the screen.The bad news is the fault on the lip sync seems to be is intermitant .On friday I watched wwf programing (no laughing please) and it was unwatchable. as was eastenders and some other programes I thoght at first this was my NTL cable box but now from the posts it believe it to be the screen .I have a sony s735 dvd but have seen no evidence on the lip syn on the dvd and its not progressive scan.Although i have just ordered a denon 3802. Question please if the 80 ms is corrected on the amp do you have to change it for the non problem broadcasts ? Most of the problems seem to be on made for tv programming rather than films ??? is there a reason for this ????

regards all
 

Guest
My tuppance worth

I believe that all Plasma screens have an 80millisecond delay

most people will never notice this, A few people have pointed the Lip Sync issue out to me, and I find it miniscule, and not very distracting
Today I visited r22flyer

to put it bluntly to be a (nosy bugger) as I have a Plasma on order and any reference to potential problems is of great interest to me

Lets get things straight from the outset r22flyer knows his stuff, and his knowledge on this matter is way beyond mine, and I guess most others

he showed me a bunch of DVD,s and I must say I agree with his comments 100% he has a load of sophisticated sound equipment that gives you a whole S**t load of tricks about sound related things

and from all sources on a Plasma TV there is a delay of 80ms when he uses his sound processing gadget the sound is in perfect sync.

the answer to this is that most folk will not notice this 80ms but it is there, so for the most plasma owners it will never be a problem, but it is there

this delay still wont stop my purchase of the plasma, but I will probably upgrade my Amp in the not too distant future, with an AV DELAY feature which will cure this in a stroke

on a Brighter note his Panasonic Looked great, having never actually seen one in a home, rather than a showroom I must say it really Looks the Biz
quite striking as you walk into the room with a really vibrant picture.
 
R

r22flyer

Guest
Thanks P A,

Look forward to seeing your plasma beast in situ too !

Another discovery - thanks to Party Animal - some DVDs have an audio sync problem in some players.... fortunately its almost always that the audio is late by typically 60 odd mS. This 'delay' will compensate for plasma delay, nearly but not quite cancelling the problem out - 20mS would not be easily noticed...

However this is pot luck and depends on the DVD production, which player you have etc...

Research ongoing....
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
r22flyer

One quick question:

Which Panasonic display do you have?

You say all PW4 models have a delay, which may be true, but there are differences between the different Panasonic displays and one of the differences between the TH-42PWD4BX (UK) spec display and the TH-42PWD4EX (Euro) spec model is a change to the delay in the S-Video input! (I dont have the spec on the change its just one of the differences that Panasonic list to us dealers).

As you say as more end users take up large screen plasma and projection systems it will be more common place to see the type of 'delay' features that ONKYO and others already provide on some Home Theatre AV amplifiers - we have to recognise this as a 'feature' not a fault.

I'm sure you will have come across the classic video edit/presentation problem when someone runs a video signal through an analogue vision mixer (Panasonic MX50 and the like) buts runs the audio directly to a sound desk and then wonders why the sound is out of sync.

Best regards

Joe
 
N

nickt

Guest
I have 42" panasonic and I have only had chance to watch a few movies. Shrek and Contact looked fine, but one of the "making of" documentaries on the Shrek disc was pretty funny - reminded me of watching a film in our local fleapit cinema when I was a kid!

Maybe (as mentioned earlier) this a double problem - encoding errors on some disk made worse by the display delaying the video by a frame. I'm sure I read elsewhere (can't remember where) that this problem depended on the connections used.

I haven't noticed a significant problem on TV or video either (I use VGA for TV/DVD and composite for video), so I think that I can tolerate the delay unless the source is also out of sync the same way. That said, I can't tolerate the buzz - but that's another thread...
 
R

r22flyer

Guest
Joe,

My unit is the UK spec...

Thanks for your comments - I figure I'm just intolerant of any sync problem but other people simply have not noticed....

Nickt

The delay happens on all inputs - my Pace DTV box is connected via a JS VGA box - my Sky/Tivo/DVD are connected via a JS YUV box and VCR via S-Video....

I must say the JS boxes are brilliant.....!!!!
 
N

nickt

Guest
r22flyer, I agree about the JS boxes.

Perhaps he can come up with an audio delay unit...?
 

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