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Panasonic Plasma sound sync problem

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by r22flyer, Sep 5, 2002.

  1. r22flyer

    r22flyer
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    Ok - got the PW4 home and on test....

    My JS Tech boxes haven't arrived yet so I tested the screen via the S-Video and my DVD player....

    The DVD player sound was routed to the AV amp via an opto lead (for 5.1 decode as appropriate)...

    Now, I mainly view music DVDs so the first DVD to be tried was a live concert video.... I found the lip sync/drum sync very poor indeed, yet this is not so when viewed via S-Video on my Sony TV....

    I tried an experimental recording with my DV camcorder for sound sync and played back into the composite video input on the plasma and into normal L+R audio input on the amp and the sound sync seemed so close as to be OK.... but on S-Video again there was a significant sync difference???

    I'm hoping that when I route my DVD through RGB to VGA (or component) that the sound sync problem doesn't exist... if it does that's a real problem for me and will make it unusable....

    In all my reading of threads on Pana plasma users on this forum I can't recall seeing anything about sound sync... and searching specifically now does find the odd report (but I never thought to question this in my research!) - are any of you Pana owners out there music fans and got this problem??? How did you deal with it???

    My AV amp is a Yamaha RDS800

    Paul :(
     
  2. CarlB

    CarlB
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    If you're feeding an interlaced signal to the panel then it needs to process the image into progressive scan before display. This introduces a delay to the image of about 2 frames if I remember correctly.

    I have the same panel and have noticed the same problem with DVDs. It is usually just in certain sections where perhaps ADR was used and the looping was slightly out, so the additional 2 frame delay exacerbates the issue.

    Your options are:

    1. Use an amp that offers a sync delay such as the Denon AVCA1SR.
    2. Switch to a progressive scan DVD player that has better deinterlacing performance or enables sync such as the new high-end Sony model (out soon).

    Personally I have just ordered a Denon 3800 to see if the problem is reduced with progressive input. If the problem still exists I will upgrade my AVCA1SE with the new board to allow me to introduce a delay to compensate. It is not critical for me as I only notice the problem occasionally on certain discs as I mentioned.
     
  3. r22flyer

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    I had intended to connect my JVC S-VHS VCR to the plasma S-video input - does this mean that I'm still going to get the sound sync problem?

    If so this is going to be a significant problem for me and the lack of posts so far indicates that there may be no solution to my problem....????

    Thanks CarlB but the Denon amp solution is not affordable...
     
  4. r22flyer

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    Got the JS convertor boxes today & tested them tonight...

    The picture quality with the VGA or YUV box is absolutely superb...

    However the sound sync is appalling... (note nothing to do with JS boxes) - the plasma processing delays the picture far too noticeably for me, especially on music. Just mode makes it worse!

    As a musician with mainly music DVDs I find it so irritating when a snare drum beat has sounded before the stick appears to actually hit it!!! Similarly with guitar playing and lip sync...

    Similar but variable results from the Sky Box - Sky News was awful..., a film on Bravo was awful sound sync yet looked OK when viewed on my Sony CRT TV. The image just looks so detached from the sound.

    I priced up the Denon amp CarlB mentioned - wow £2500!! Unless I can find a suitable solution for my Yamaha amp then unfortunately its back to the CRT TV!!!!

    I can't believe all you plasma owners tolerate it...

    One very unhappy customer.....
     
  5. Guest

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    Interesting thread this, I am soon to receive a Panny Plasma and would Like to hear views from other panny owners about this issue

    is your Panny out of sync, its not a problem that I have seen discussed on here very much

    I have a Denon 2802 AV Amp that is barely 3 months old, and swapping it for a more expensive model is not an option for me, just to get the sound in sync.

    in my opinion when us punters spend nearly £4000 on the Latest gear, we should not have to spend a pile more ££££,s just to get it to an acceptable level of usability.

    so come on Panny owners does your Panny have sync Problems
     
  6. alex f

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    I just got a 37" Panasonic Plasma D4, Pioneer 747 DVD and Denon AVR3802. I got this kit as I thought it was a good setup but must mention that i am very dissapointed with Svideo and composit quality, sky is not too bad but still nowhere near "digital" quality?!

    I have just watched the fast & furious and the lip sync was really bad in places but I have not noticed it on other DVD's. I watched it with progressive scan on and off and noticed no difference, the connections were component £150 cables!!!

    I am waiting for the JS vga cable to arrive for the digibox and if it is still bad then it looks like I have waisted a fair few quid!

    My old panasonic 4.3 29" tv seems clearer:mad:

    Why do they bother putting svideo and composite inputs on a plasma if it looks worse than old fashioned analog?

    Alex
     
  7. r22flyer

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    Drastic part solution I know but....

    I connected a TC-Electronics M-One digital effects unit into the audio setup.... I set a stereo delay up with no repeats and a full wet mix with a delay of 100mS - this cured almost all the lip sync problems from Sky TV.

    Unfortunately the digital I/O does not work with Dolby 5.1 or DTS - bugger!
     
  8. codlord

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    I did notice sound delays when I first got my plasma - fiddling with the delay options on my amp fixed the problem for most DVD's but there do seem to be some dvds worse than others, so on a few I still get a bit of a sync problem.

    I am intending to upgrade to a prog-scan dvd player soon which should come with a sound delay built in and fix this problem.
     
  9. CarlB

    CarlB
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    As I mentioned earlier, don't forget you can upgrade to a prog-scan DVD player which may have better processing and no noticeable delay. As the plasma panel is then not having to convert an interlaced image to prog-scan there would be no further delay added to the image.

    I am trying this option first and have a Denon 3800 on order, due to arrive next week. If this does not work I will look at upgrading my AVCA1SE amp with the new processing board, which makes it almost the same spec as the AVCA1SR, including audio delay processing. I would then start with 60ms delay and see how it looks.

    Will keep you posted how it is when the new DVD player arrives.
     
  10. Guest

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    Reading some of the answers on here, seems to be a mixed bag, I am in the market for a Pro Scan DVD Player shortly but its the Sky Viewing that is going to be the problem by the sound of things

    Forgetting DVD Playback whats the general opinion of Sky sync issues

    my Denon amp has a speaker distance setup, would this be enough to compensate any issues.

    it Lets me put how many Ft & inches I sit from the speakers, so if I say put the distance to its furthest extreme say 25Ft
    when I,m actually sat about 9ft away

    what do you guys think?????
     
  11. YYZ

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    There are two problems: -

    1st : All plasmas as a result of the conversion from interlaced to progressive will introduce an element of delay to the video.

    2nd I'm lead to believe that "flags" are used on DVD's to sync the sound to the video, some do it better than others so you can get a bit of a mixed bag.

    When you add the two together it can get quite annoying. You really have no option other than to reduce the amount of work the panel has to do in processing i.e prog scan DVD and/or get an amp with a sound delay adjustment.

    I use a Fujitsu 4229 with an iScan Pro di-interlacer and apart from the odd DVD I don't experience any problems. I suppose its how sensitive you are to it and I have heard the music DVD's are some of the worst culprits when it comes to this problem
     
  12. r22flyer

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    I have discovered a German made delay unit called a Vigatec Wave that is specifically made for this application - it delays ananlogue and digital audio.... haven't tracked down a supplier or price yet though....
     
  13. Glenn Keen

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    What lip sync problem! :confused:

    I'm currently watching Sky on my Panny Plasma and have NO lip sync problem! Also DVD and video's are fine.

    All sound is played through my Denon 10SE amp. I',ve not changed my setting at all, same ones as I used with my old Philips tv.

    Could this problem be a fault on the Plasma?


    Glenn.
     
  14. MoonsSpawn

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    I have to concurr with Glen's comments. I have a Panny 42" and have been using SKY+ through S-Video with no lip synch problems at all. My sound is routed through a Denon A1SR but I have made no changes to the audio delay settings. DVD's are a similar story. No lip synch probs at all.

    Moons.
     
  15. alex f

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    I have only noticed it so far on dvd, the fast and furious. I have been told that uk dvds are more prone to lip sync than US dvds but I don't have any yet. If I notice it on any others I will post them here

    Alex
     
  16. CarlB

    CarlB
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    It will be more common to notice it on DVD when poor ADR recording means the dialogue was slightly lagging the video in the first place. The extra few milliseconds added by the plasma processing will then make the error noticeable.
     
  17. r22flyer

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    Glenn/Moons

    You are obviously not sensitive to the plasma processing delay but it really is there on all Pana PW4 plasmas and its not a fault - it really must be there because of the PAL interlaced scan to progressive scan conversion. Tests have shown that its around 80mS delay in video compared to audio... think about it - the plasma has to store one field of an interlaced picture, then store the other field, then display it - watch the same source on a plasma side by side a normal CRT TV and you will see that cuts between scenes occur at different times - the plasma being later. It seems not as bad with NTSC sources but there may be a technical reason for this.

    Your perception, I admit, depends on the programme material you watch. On Sky News and BBC News 24 its very noticeable when watching (and listening) to the news readers. On music videos its far more noticeable.... it looks awful. On most other material including fast paced films with little close up diaglogue you probably do not notice it.

    Judging by the poor editing on some pop type videos that you see on MTV (and the like) and the awful way some people mime to their pre-recorded tracks means that most people must have become tolerant of some lip sync difference or have simply never noticed it.

    However, I edit video and lip sync is vitally import and often moving a video clip a couple of frames can make a difference to how it looks. Also being a musician, where timing is critical, makes me sensitive to it. I have to do something about it.

    Anyway, the point is that AV manufactures know its there because AV amps are starting to appear with a configurable delay up to 180mS for audio... my guess is that as plasma and projectors become more popular that more AV amps will include this 'feature'.

    My TC M-One gets round it for now - but ulimately (being a Yamaha fan) means I will have to get a Yamaha AV amp which has this adjustable overall delay feature.

    Paul
     
  18. Glenn Keen

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    Hmmmm,

    just watching Kerrang on SKY+ through SVIDEO, sound trough my 10SE amp and there is NO delay!

    Now I know that the screen is doing all the processing but I'm just not getting an lip sync problems, and I'm looking realy closely!

    Just looked at SKY news, no lip sync problem there either!

    Strange!
    :confused:

    Glenn.
     
  19. markbuffyfan

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    Well tomorrow im back onto my dealer .I have just purchased a 50 inch panasonic plasma and a denon 3802 and loop this through the dmr 30 dvd recorder into the screen.The bad news is the fault on the lip sync seems to be is intermitant .On friday I watched wwf programing (no laughing please) and it was unwatchable. as was eastenders and some other programes I thoght at first this was my NTL cable box but now from the posts it believe it to be the screen .I have a sony s735 dvd but have seen no evidence on the lip syn on the dvd and its not progressive scan.Although i have just ordered a denon 3802. Question please if the 80 ms is corrected on the amp do you have to change it for the non problem broadcasts ? Most of the problems seem to be on made for tv programming rather than films ??? is there a reason for this ????

    regards all
     
  20. Guest

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    My tuppance worth

    I believe that all Plasma screens have an 80millisecond delay

    most people will never notice this, A few people have pointed the Lip Sync issue out to me, and I find it miniscule, and not very distracting
    Today I visited r22flyer

    to put it bluntly to be a (nosy bugger) as I have a Plasma on order and any reference to potential problems is of great interest to me

    Lets get things straight from the outset r22flyer knows his stuff, and his knowledge on this matter is way beyond mine, and I guess most others

    he showed me a bunch of DVD,s and I must say I agree with his comments 100% he has a load of sophisticated sound equipment that gives you a whole S**t load of tricks about sound related things

    and from all sources on a Plasma TV there is a delay of 80ms when he uses his sound processing gadget the sound is in perfect sync.

    the answer to this is that most folk will not notice this 80ms but it is there, so for the most plasma owners it will never be a problem, but it is there

    this delay still wont stop my purchase of the plasma, but I will probably upgrade my Amp in the not too distant future, with an AV DELAY feature which will cure this in a stroke

    on a Brighter note his Panasonic Looked great, having never actually seen one in a home, rather than a showroom I must say it really Looks the Biz
    quite striking as you walk into the room with a really vibrant picture.
     
  21. r22flyer

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    Thanks P A,

    Look forward to seeing your plasma beast in situ too !

    Another discovery - thanks to Party Animal - some DVDs have an audio sync problem in some players.... fortunately its almost always that the audio is late by typically 60 odd mS. This 'delay' will compensate for plasma delay, nearly but not quite cancelling the problem out - 20mS would not be easily noticed...

    However this is pot luck and depends on the DVD production, which player you have etc...

    Research ongoing....
     
  22. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    r22flyer

    One quick question:

    Which Panasonic display do you have?

    You say all PW4 models have a delay, which may be true, but there are differences between the different Panasonic displays and one of the differences between the TH-42PWD4BX (UK) spec display and the TH-42PWD4EX (Euro) spec model is a change to the delay in the S-Video input! (I dont have the spec on the change its just one of the differences that Panasonic list to us dealers).

    As you say as more end users take up large screen plasma and projection systems it will be more common place to see the type of 'delay' features that ONKYO and others already provide on some Home Theatre AV amplifiers - we have to recognise this as a 'feature' not a fault.

    I'm sure you will have come across the classic video edit/presentation problem when someone runs a video signal through an analogue vision mixer (Panasonic MX50 and the like) buts runs the audio directly to a sound desk and then wonders why the sound is out of sync.

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  23. nickt

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    I have 42" panasonic and I have only had chance to watch a few movies. Shrek and Contact looked fine, but one of the "making of" documentaries on the Shrek disc was pretty funny - reminded me of watching a film in our local fleapit cinema when I was a kid!

    Maybe (as mentioned earlier) this a double problem - encoding errors on some disk made worse by the display delaying the video by a frame. I'm sure I read elsewhere (can't remember where) that this problem depended on the connections used.

    I haven't noticed a significant problem on TV or video either (I use VGA for TV/DVD and composite for video), so I think that I can tolerate the delay unless the source is also out of sync the same way. That said, I can't tolerate the buzz - but that's another thread...
     
  24. r22flyer

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    Joe,

    My unit is the UK spec...

    Thanks for your comments - I figure I'm just intolerant of any sync problem but other people simply have not noticed....

    Nickt

    The delay happens on all inputs - my Pace DTV box is connected via a JS VGA box - my Sky/Tivo/DVD are connected via a JS YUV box and VCR via S-Video....

    I must say the JS boxes are brilliant.....!!!!
     
  25. nickt

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    r22flyer, I agree about the JS boxes.

    Perhaps he can come up with an audio delay unit...?
     
  26. markbuffyfan

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    Well i have been back onto my dealer who is going to speak too panasonic and get back to me on it .

    Maybe im in a diffrent situation because i bought the denon 3802 and the 50 inch (30b) model at the same time (within the last week) but i cannot except that their is an inherant fault , with repect to the dealers in the forum it is A FAULT and if you had a customer who had this problem Im sure they would see it as one !!! I can buy a £100 portable tv and expect the lipsync to work correctly so im damned if i except its not a fault on £10,000 worth of screen and amp. The idea of me spending another grand or so on an amp to insert a delay channel to "fool" the sound into thinking it s in the right place is laughable !!!!

    I am really puzzelled by the whole thing though because the fault is not there on my non prog scan s735 dvd player is not there on some sky channels, but on others is the equivalent of watching the old japanese "monkey" program sky sports and news are unwatchable at times as is bbc 1 but at others times its perfect.

    Maybe I have a diffrent fault but looking back at the posts it seems a number of other sufferers have the denon 3802/ panasonic problem. Will keep u posted but if it cannot be resolved It is something I am unable to live with and
     
  27. sharper

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    Hi All (All the gangs on this thread)

    The delay IS noticeable on some recorded $Ky + material. Just stop the recording and start again.

    We have had for 3 weeks now and yes we have noticed a "slight" delay but this not a problem and has not spoiled our pleasure viewing the Panny plasma.

    Notice!! The Fast And The Furies R2 is so bad for lip sync as to be funny.

    OK What prog scan DVD player to get? :confused:


    Denon 3800 ??
    Philips 963
    Tosh 520
    Sony SE what is this machine ?

    Cant afford Arcam :mad: Spent to many pennies on plasma
     
  28. alex f

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    Hi,

    I don't think its a fault, it only happens on certain material and definately on fast and furious.
    I watched saving private ryan last night on dvd and it was perfect.

    I think its the odd program and the odd dvd, it just happens to look worse on plasmas. Lets face it, tv quality has a long way to go before it's perfect, we can spot quality(or lack of it) better than joe public with one speaker and a normal tv so it's not going to get better untill plasmas are the norm.
    The more I watch the plasma the more i adapt to it and it looks better each time i watch, the change from a 50hz tv to a plasma takes some getting used to and you need to accept that some dvd discs have more faults than others which the plasma will exaggerate?

    Cheers

    Alex
     
  29. Joe Fernand

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    Mark

    First off I dont sell the Consumer versions of the Panasonic displays so dont have any long term experience or customer feedback on them - you may well have a rogue panel but I doubt it would have an intermittent problem that shows up on the same DVD every time you play it!

    Re your argument that the plasma display has an inherent fault and that you are taking it up with Panasonic I would expect them to ask you to run your audio via the panel and its clip on speakers and see if there is still a delay - after all they can only guarantee that the on-board audio and video are in sync.

    What you are saying is that if you take the audio out from your source and run it through an audio processor (Denon 3802) and then take the video out from your source and run it through a video processor (TH-50PHD30BX?) there is the possibility that the audio and video wont be in sync - whose fault is that?

    As you have already noticed the degree of delay is source and disc/transmission dependent - who's fault is that?

    You also say its not reasonable to introduce a delay to the audio - try and tell that to a studio engineer working in video edit studio; R22flyer already pointed out that he gets annoyed when working on his digital edit suite and has to introduce timing changes - does that mean his edit suite is faulty or simply that the video processor is working harder and takes longer to do its job than the audio processor.

    I cannot see how your dealer or Panasonic or Denon is going to resolve your problem with absolute accuracy for every disc and broadcast without introducing a bit of kit that can be adjusted very time you see an error. Hopefully there is something in the Denon 3802 set up that will allow you and your dealer to minimise this problem and possibly even call up audio timing delays as and when required.

    Best regards

    Joe

    PS ONKYO AV amps dont cost a fortune but as they have targeted the AV market for quite a few years in the US maybe they are ahead of some manufacturers in recognising this issue when customers start to split the audio and the video signal through separate processors.

    Have a look in the Forum on the TAG website - you will constantly see TAG owners who use projectors asking for more and more timing delay options as they try to keep the audio and video in sync.
     
  30. markbuffyfan

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    Hello joe thanks for the reply, Im sorry if in someway i caused offence in any way, its unintentional, maybe im just a little bit to emotional over the whole issue because 10 grand is a lot of money for me to spend on something which has a problem never mentioned before it was purchased. I am in my place of work a buyer and law of contract says goods must be fit for the purpose for which they are bought. I bought the amp and screen as a package so either one or the other is not working in real time and therfore under contract law it qualifies as a system fault rather than a unitary problem.

    The more I think about this and read the other postings Im convinced my panel is faulty because the problem is intermittant. If it was there all the time on all the channels i would agree that its a sync issue and that it could be delayed with an outside processor and sorted out .

    However, it drifts and can be anything from nothing at all to barely out of sync to upto a around a half second out, even during the same program no external processor will sort out a variable length problem so im sure its about the sync flags that are transmitted between audio and video. ( could be either unit) . Problem is if i take the signal to portable tv its back in sync all the time. so i know its not the broadcast or the cable box.

    I do not have the add on speakers Joe could i connect up a pair of hifi speakers to try this out or would that bugger up something ??? the one's im thinking of are 6 ohm.

    I have never seen the problem on my dvd !!! which is on the coponet input so im wondering if the s video input is the problem. Im expecting a sync blster cable today so i can use the vga input with rgb output that may even sort it out ???. who knows not i thats for sure

    My dealer sound and vision are being very good with me about this and are trying to contact panasonic but the tech person in the know there is on holiday. I have every confidense within the grounds of reasonableness that sound and vision will resolve it for me. All i really want is something that works for the money i have paid and if its a change of amp or what have you then so be it so long as it doesent cost me more.

    Does anyone no if this problem is unique to panasonic or do pioneer etc suffer from it.

    will keep the thread posted with events as they occur.
     

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