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Panasonic/HP to use DVD RAM/+RW

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by KDH, Jan 5, 2005.

  1. KDH

    KDH
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    CES announcement today

    http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/11166


    - Panasonic: HP and Panasonic are working together to make it easier for consumers to use DVD media between their digital consumer electronics and PCs by incorporating DVD+R and DVD-RAM formats into the companies' respective DVD products. By eliminating format issues and confusion about which media to use, both companies expect that consumer interest in DVD recording will grow significantly. The companies also plan to cooperate on developing products and solutions that support the Blu-ray Disc Association high-definition optical disc format. The goal is to create the overall best user experience in the growing recordable DVD market, as well as in the future Blu-ray Disc market."

    Presumably this means Panasonic DVD Recorders will also use +RW and HP will support RAM by using Super multi drives in PC's
     
  2. Kabelnet

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    Will......

    The odd thing about it is that the format of DVD-RAM (and DVD+/-R/RW) is a standard, therefore no cooperation is needed (in my opinion), only should keep the standards.
     
  3. KDH

    KDH
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    I'm sure we'll know more when the Panasonic announcement comes

    -CES info yet to go live at panasonic.com
     
  4. Rasczak

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    Odds are it is talking about support on the most basic level: i.e. read support for DVD-RAM in HP products and ditto for DVD+ in Panasonic products (already found in most of their range). But, as KDH says, we'll have to wait and see. Greater support for DVD-RAM can only be a good thing IMHO :clap:
     
  5. KDH

    KDH
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  6. Rasczak

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    Excellent news - the +R is somewhat irrelevant but the DVD-RW will, at least, stop the compatibility whingers. I'm surprised they didn't add DVD+RW recording as well - political reasons perhaps? No DVD+R DL yet either which would seem a good reason to go for DVD+R support. Still - all in all a very good development.

    Much more important is that LP (4 hour) mode is now Full Resolution:
    :clap:

    Looks like the new models are:
    DMR-ES10: Panasonic E55 replacement
    DMR-ES30V: Panasonic E75 replacement
    DMR-EH50: Panasonic E85 replacement
     
  7. HMHB

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    That LP mode full resolution will be incredible. Now I just need to find a room to put my E85 into so that I've got an excuse to buy one of these !
    I assume recordings made on this new machine would be compatible with my E85 and E55 ?
     
  8. Rasczak

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    The LP is full resolution (as opposed to unofficial resolutions like the JVC) so yes they will play on your existing recorders and any other VR equipment out there.
     
  9. KDH

    KDH
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  10. Rasczak

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    What I meant is it doesn't add anything to the machine. With DVD-R support you can already record onto the most compatible write-once media (DVD-R) - so is there any real benefit from allowing people to record onto less compatible media? Not really. DVD+R DL support would have been nice though - and it could be that Panasonic has added DVD+R support so that it can add DVD+R DL onto it's E500 replacement in September.

    DVD-RW support does bring a practical difference to the machine and thus is welcome - however :censored: the format is.

    I am still suprised Panasonic haven't gone the whole Super Multi Format route and added DVD+RW recording. It would hardly threaten RAM sales (which is why Panasonic have resisted DVD-RW support for so long) as Toshiba, JVC and Samsung have proven.

    Yes - that is not such a nice feature - but it won't apply on our models.
     
  11. KDH

    KDH
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    It could be we don't get +R support anyway-purely for the Yanks?
     
  12. Rasczak

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    I would have thought if the US gets it, Europe will too. DVD 'plus' is bigger here (EU) than in the US.
     
  13. PhilipL

    PhilipL
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    Hi

    Why oh why do these manufacturers keep adding to the confusion. There is no reason other than political that the Panasonic recorders do not support DVD-RW in VR mode as well as Video mode, and in adding +R support without +RW support has just added another piece of hardware to the pile that supports yet another combination of formats! The reason they do not of course is in doing so makes DVD-RAM as good as obsolete, and Panasonic are still wanting to cling onto their format, but adding support for DVD-RW and +R shows how Panasonic’s DVD-RAM is losing out to other formats. It isn't just Panasonic of course adding to the confusion.

    Lets see if I can think up all the variations of supported formats in DVD Recorders:

    Record to DVD-RAM and DVD-R only.
    Record to DVD-RAM, DVD-RW Video mode and VR mode and DVD-R.
    Record to DVD-RAM, DVD-RW Video mode, DVD-R and +R.
    Record to DVD-RW Video mode and VR mode, and DVD-R
    Record to DVD-RW Video mode and VR mode, +RW, DVD-R
    Record to DVD-RW Video mode, DVD-R, +RW and +R
    Record to DVD-RW Video mode and VR mode, DVD-R, +RW and +R

    Start throwing in varying degrees of support for Dual Layer DVD-R and Double Layer +R and that list could double in length.

    What a complete and utter mess, and all we need is quite simple:

    DVD-RW VR mode and Video mode, and DVD-R; this covers all the possible functionality that anyone really needs. The complete mess above is due to manufacturers greed. They managed to put this aside for the DVD Video single and dual layer physical formats and agreed on the logical and application layers with DVD Video become the biggest selling format of all time because of the united standard, you'd think they learn from their successes wouldn’t you?

    Regards

    Philip
     
  14. Rasczak

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    There are differing opinions on that. I think DVD-RAM (VR), DVD-RW (Video) and DVD-R support are all that are needed. After a month now with a Sony GXD500 if I ever have to own another DVD-RW VR recorder it is a thousand years too soon for my liking. And if we can't agree then I don't see why the producers who get licence revenue should agree. It is a bad situation from a consumers point of view - but BluRay is coming quick enough not to make it a big issue IMHO.

    Not at all. DVD-RAM recorders are still outselling the competition worldwide - indeed Panasonic has recently overtaken Sony as the top electrical retailer - story here - largely due to it's strong DVD recorder and plasma range. Adding DVD+R support is the logical step for adding DVD+R DL and DVD-R DL support (presumably) in the next generation machines - this is an essential requirement if they are to maintain their position as number 1. Adding DVD-RW Video support is understandable - Panny do lose sales by not having it. It's a shame they haven't added DVD+RW as well as that is the more popular/available of the two.

    Adding DVD-RW VR, however, would bring nothing but extra complications to the Panasonic machines: the need to finalise a VR recording and only 2x discs or above are foreign concepts to DVD recorders designed to be easy to use. Keep it simple - keep it DVD-RAM.
     
  15. PhilipL

    PhilipL
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    Hi

    I agree that would be an improvement over what we have now. However why have 3 formats when you can do the same with two?

    Hypothetically, the best one to get rid of is DVD-RAM, it isn't compatible with the majority of the hardware, is more expensive, and DVD-RW can do everything DVD-RAM can do and is even more compatible in the VR mode. It isn't rocket science; those are just the facts, plain and simple.

    We could just as easily say +RW and +R is all we need, provided it used VR mode in addition to the DVD Video, I would say scrap the +VR attempt at editing on +RW while making DVD Video compliant discs, as it is unreliable and error prone, and nobody wants "disc errors" and "unknown data" messages to signal yet another lost recording! Even Philips has scrapped it on their hard-drive models in favour of all recording going to the hard-drive.

    At least hopefully we can agree that DVD recordable is a complete mess with no signs of consolidation or standardisation. Yes we do have Blu-Ray on the way, but again, we have a competing format to go with it, history will repeat itself and the manufacturers pay with lower sales and higher manufacturing costs.

    You still talk the same old rubbish, finalising VR recordings provides an ISO bridge for backwards compatibility, and it isn't needed anymore, besides, users are already used to finalising CD-RW, CD-R, DVD-R, +R, so it isn't a new concept unless you are living on a different planet ;) What's the big deal about 2 speed media users are already encouraged to look for the speed of media to achieve the best high-speed dubbing back to DVDs, so again, hardly a foreign concept.

    Something you will never admit to, but there really is no need for DVD-RAM, except for Panasonic royality income of course. Show me a DVD-RAM disc, and I can show a cheaper more compatible DVD-RW disc that will do exactly the same. If I show you a DVD-RW disc, can you show me a DVD-RAM that disc that can do the same?

    That link to the BBC website tells us nothing about Panasonic's market share of DVD Recorders, just because you post a link to back up a statement, doesn't mean it will unless it actually refers to what you are talking about. :hiya:

    Regards

    Philip
     
  16. Rasczak

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    I disagree:
    - DVD-RW has no native Windows XP support
    - DVD-RW requires finalisation
    - DVD-RW requires multiple speed discs to be the market at once (how many Pioneer 3100/5100 users can use 4x DVD-RW media!)
    - Many DVD-RW machines give sluggish performance compared to their DVD-RAM counter-parts.
    - The format is less reliable than DVD-RAM. In 5 years I have never had a DVD-RAM not work. In one month I have had several DVD-RWs refuse to finalise (!). Quirks of the format indeed!
    - Formatting of a disc in two formats (VR or Video) creates confusion in itself

    DVD+RW VR mode would seem preferrable to DVD-RW VR if it existed. No finalisation, base speed of 2.4x for timeslip - potentially it could have worked. But as this never happened this is getting into the realms of fantasy.


    As I say - if we can't agree then why should the producers?
     
  17. Rasczak

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    Philip, when will you come down from the DVD-RW temple?

    Unless you want to play the disc on the PC when it is required or needs third party software to do :thumbsdow You may have infested your PC with applications from Pioneer to keep their format up with DVD+RW but I would prefer not to thanks ;)

    You just can't see the problems can you Philip. Goto a PC world store - all they have is 1x speed PC Line DVD-RW discs. There are no others. People do not understand why they can't buy these discs, put it in their machine and then not use the features. The situation is even worse for Sony users: to use timeslip they must be using 2x media (that is compatible) and not be using the HQ or HSP modes!?! You are complaining it is all too complicated - well DVD-RW just makes it MORE so!

    But the big thing against DVD-RW is availability - getting them online is fine - but that is useless if you have a recording that evening! In the last few weeks I have been shopping in Plymouth, Winchester, Dorchester and Southampton - one thing was consistant - apart from (incompatible) 1x PC Line discs no DVD-RWs were available in the Dixons, Currys, Comet or PC World stores I visited. And yes I was looking for them as I needed some for my GXD500. None were available. Plenty of DVD-RAM, plenty of DVD-R, plenty of DVD+RW/+R - but no DVD-RW. Food for thought.
     
  18. PhilipL

    PhilipL
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    Hi

    When will you come down of your DVD-RAM soap box :)

    The chances of playing a DVD-RAM disc on a computer is remote as DVD-RAM isn't compatible. It is kind of irrevant if you do not need software isn't it :)

    DVD-RW in VR mode will play on the majority of computers. In order to play DVD video you need an MPEG decoder, people get this from their DVD Player software, that in turn provides full support for UDF reading. All you need to watch your DVD-RW VR mode is DVD Player software.

    All you need to watch your DVD-RAM in VR mode is first to find a PC that has a drive capable of reading it, not very likely. If luck has it, we find a PC that can actually read DVD-RAM, and can see a nice VRO file on the computer, but it doesn't open, unsupported, not even recognised as a file type. So you still have to install some DVD Player software anyway. Sorry Raczak, DVD-RAM offers no advantage, even though Windows can see the VRO file, it ain't a lot of use.

    Oh, here is a little time saver tip for you. DVD-RW in VR mode does not require finalising :smashin:

    Lets recap, DVD-RW is cheaper, more compatible, supports both the VR mode for editing and time-slip just like DVD-RAM, and also supports the very compatible DVD Video format. No matter how you try, these are facts you just do not like, sorry not my fault, speak to Panasonic and ask them why DVD-RAM isn't compatible with the DVD Video specification that a billion DVD Players use, don't take it out on me, it's not my design mate. :oops:

    Laugh, the rare time I have ever seen DVD-RAM in the shops it was priced at £14.99 a disc!!! Likewise DVD-RW is just as rare at retail as DVD-RAM I agree, however my local Comet has on sale TDK 2x DVD-RW, but no DVD-RAM which was odd as they sell Panasonic recorders, but that's retail for you, they're more confused then anyone else.

    People buy DVD-RAM and DVD-RW on line at the fraction of cost, it is no wonder retail stores seldom stock it as they sell so little at the high mark ups.

    Regards

    Philip
     
  19. Rasczak

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    Yeah and I accept that. I acknowledge it and inform people of it. Ironically this very thread is about that support increasing though - so it is hardly the dark ages: Hitachi-LG, Samsung, Toshiba, Panasonic, Iomega. Now HP and from later this year LiteOn - even Pioneer's new ROM drives support it (there burners have for several generations now). So "remote" is misleading and wrong - these companies hold over 50% of the OEM market - support is increasing make compatibility less of an issue. But I accept it is still an issue which is why I tell people about it.

    But what about importing it? You need a programme with a UDF reader - as I say it requires third party support.

    It does require finalisation Philip, it does. You put a non-finalised disc in a DVD-ROM and it will not be recognised. You may have loaded your PC with loads of software to make that different but it doesn't alter the fact that without it a non-finalised DVD-RW is a coaster until formatted.

    And for the several readers who read my earlier post in another they already have the answer to this. Almost word for word what I predicted you would say :rotfl: Don't take this the wrong way Philip (it is meant as a compliment of sorts) - your one of the internet's great academics: you study the technical documentation and read all the websites - and are an asset to have about. But without the practical experience you get from using all these machines it useless. Which is why you don't understand the recent DVD-RW frustrations of Sony and Toshiba users :rolleyes: And is why you nail your colours so tightly to DVD-RW. There aren't many users here (bar Phelings :) ) who would want only DVD-RW in place of DVD-RAM. There have just been too many bad experiences of it.

    But I'll tell you something - do you know the really great thing about DVD-RAM? I have original DVD-RAM discs purchased in January 2000 that are still readable and recordable in my Panasonic E95 - they've worked with every RAM compatible burner and DVD recorder I have tested or owned. I also have a Maxell 5x DVD-RAM recordable and readable in my old Panasonic E20 - how many Pioneer 3100/5100 can use the latest DVD-RW 4x media? None! Sold down the river by your 'can-do-no-wrong' format Philip.

    Your right - packets of five discs - are priced around £14.99. They are available right now in your local store. Of course you can get both types of media cheaper online - but try buying in the shops and see which formats are actually available...
     
  20. Rasczak

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    Just flipping back to the new Panasonic range I can't seen any mention of Ethernet connectivity. I appreciate the the DMR-ES10 and DMR-EH50 are 'bottom' of their respective ranges but I would have thought the DMR-ES30V - with it's SD/PC Card slots - would also have had it. I hope they are not limiting it to their top-of-the-range models as who in hell wants two or more E500s kicking around the house! Surely the aim was one server (hence the 400GB) and lots of cheap terminals?
     
  21. HMHB

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    Good point, hopefully these ethernet ports will filter down the range.
     
  22. Rasczak

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    Reading the article again this is another positive feature of the new machines:
    That has been one of the biggest complaints about HDD/DVDR and so it's good to see it's been 'sorted'.

    So in summary then the new features of this years range are:
    - 4 hour full resolution recording (current models offer 3hrs)
    - 12 bit analog to digital encoder
    - Fast startup
    - DVD-RW (Video mode) recording
    - DVD+R recording
    - "Smart Wheel" remote control
    - 200x speed fast forward

    Quite a nice list of improvements - although it's the 4hr full resolution that is the best. Annoying thing is it's still four months before we see any of thus stuff - and even longer before the top end models come out.
     
  23. PhilipL

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    Hi

    Your wrong. Any UDF reader, including those that are part of DVD Playback software, do not require the disc finalised in VR mode. I would check out the UDF specifications at www.osta.org, or actually use DVD-RW in the VR mode to find out. Even if you do finalise DVD-RW in the VR mode it is needed one time only to include an ISO bridge and de-ice the whole disc to improve compatibility to the absolute maximum on old readers, after that you can continue recording or erasing on the DVD-RW and never have to finalise it again unless you erase the disc completely.

    Yes you need DVD Playback software to playback DVD-RW in the VR mode, but for DVD-RAM you need DVD Playback software that also supports VR mode, plus the more difficult requirement of having a DVD-ROM reader that works with DVD-RAM.

    Whilst I have had 100% success playing back DVD-RW in the VR mode at work, on work laptops for catching up on programs whilst travelling (a great perk) and at other peoples homes, I would have had 100% playback failure with DVD-RAM as none of those machines would recognise DVD-RAM, I know I have tried as have colleagues with DVD-RAM to their disappointment. Yes Windows might have a UDF reader, but like you continue to ignore and hate me reminding you, DVD-RAM will not work in 90% or more of existing DVD-ROM readers, and a Windows UDF reader can not change that! I’d rather be able to install a tiny bit of free software and have DVD-RW work, then to find I can’t play DVD-RAM at all, wouldn’t you? Yes readers may be cheap enough (unless they are half height readers for) but I can’t go replacing every PC I might want to play DVD-RAM in with a new reader on the off chance I will need it.

    Your argument about installing software is so weak to be laughable and you sound like a stuck record. Lets put it another way, I guess you never use Microsoft Word or any other word processor package, but instead use NotePad, because NotePad is included in the OS, and you don't know how to install software :lesson:

    Regards

    Philip
     
  24. Rasczak

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    Then I suggest everyone who is reading this thread simply tries it for themselves. For those with instant write software it may work, for those without it won't. Putting an unfinalised DVD-RW in my LG results in just one thing: the drive locking up and requiring me to use the manual lever to force the tray open. Ditto A Toshiba 1612 drive, ditto the NEC drive in my Dell laptop, ditto the Panasonic LF310 in my second PC etc etc As I've stated here and on other posts you can give long and boring lectures about UDF formats but it's totally irrelevant to the users here - who just want to insert the disc and play. To them DVD-RW is not a religion ;)

    And I've never denied that - infact I wrote a whole Guide on the subject :laugh: So it makes you look silly continuing to say it as though I am hiding it. It's even one of the sticky topics so it couldn't be more in people's faces!

    What did amuse me greatly though was whilst you were banging on about how the chances of a DVD-RAM working in any PC were "remote" I was holding not one but two conversations by PM with people just about to start following my PC Guide - they both put their DVD-RAMs in the machines and they played. :thumbsup: Just one night's examples of how PC RAM support isn't nearly as bad as you'd like us to believe.

    Why should I install instant write software that can cause so many problems? Just check the PC thread for the endless problems it can cause. No thanks! I'll stick with DVD-RAM as that is fully supported in Windows XP. ;)

    The only stuck record here is you Philip. Just have a look at countless recent posts: people are fed up with issues relating to DVD-RW. That in itself is fine - somepeople can live with these issues - but for you suggest we should dump the other formats and just have DVD-RW is ubsurd! Your on a different planet mate! :nono:
     
  25. PhilipL

    PhilipL
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    Hi

    You need UDF software to allow writing to DVD-RAM and DVD-RW using the UDF format. What do you think the drivers are you install from Panasonic, yep they are your "instant write" software :)

    Oh I see, so buying a DVD-RAM drive and installing its own UDF writers never causes a compatibility problem with other software on the computer?

    Laugh, I expect your DVD-RAM drivers are causing a conflict, the usual message if you do not have logical support for UDF (i.e. no readers installed) you receive an "Invalid function" message (check out the PC guide for reports of this).

    Also note that you are talking about logical support. If the disc gets stuck in the writer and needs an emergency eject that is a physical application error. Just because Windows no longer has the logical support, that doesn't affect the drives ability to read the disc, so you have rather a nasty bug on your system.

    Regards

    Philip
     
  26. Rasczak

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    As all you need to do is plug the drive in and not install any drivers then the answer is no - it doesn't normally cause any conflicts. Only if you have a problem reading do you install the DVD-RAM drivers!

    Oh indeed - perhaps Windows is the problem! I don't even use DVD-RAM with two of machines!

    My god I have a nasty bug on five different PCs :eek: - or are you just wrong Philip?
     
  27. HMHB

    HMHB
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    I think maybe we ought to agree that some people prefer RAM and others prefer -RW :)
    I personally have changed the whole house over to RAM as I just love the way it performs, but equally others will endorse the -RW format. I don't know enough technical details to comment one way or another.
     
  28. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    Noooo - don't say that - you'll upset his vision of DVD-RW as the be all and end all of life on Earth! :suicide: We must all love DVD-RW to bits or we're just totally insane :rolleyes:
     
  29. PhilipL

    PhilipL
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    Hi

    Exactly and I do, I don't knock DVD-RAM, all I try and do is correct mis-leading information from Rasczak on DVD-RW that he doesn't seem to use. Rasczak is a supporter of DVD-RAM, nothing wrong with that, but he doesn't get it write about the other formats, no one is an expert and we need to share information to build up a complete picture.

    Seriously for a moment, you must have a problem or something strange happening. You are taking a VR mode disc and trying it? You do realise if it is an unfinalised DVD Video disc in the Video mode, that is different kettle of fish altogether.

    Regards

    Philip
     
  30. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    Remember that statement as you read this post: a media he doesn't seem to use. Now to answer that claim I could just have posted several paragraphs rebutting it - but what good would that do - instead let me post some evidence (sorry for the size of these):

    Exhibit 1: top: Sony GXD500 DVD recorder, below it a Verbatim DVD+R DL (left) and a TDK Scratchproof DVD-RW (right). Second row down: DVD-RAM caddied and uncaddied. Third row down: DVD+R and DVD-R. To the right several DVD-RWs in their cases. They are sitting on today's Hampshire Chronicle with the time/date on the Sony:
    [​IMG]

    Exhibit 2: A stack of around 30(?) DVD-RWs the covers of which I couldn't be bothered to flip:
    [​IMG]

    Exhibit 3: A DVD-RW disc close up. Sorry about the poor photography but you can just see the DVD-RW at the bottom:
    [​IMG]

    If anyone doubts these photos then I am happy to provide a custom example: it takes around 3mins to take the photo, copy to RAM, and upload to the webspace.

    So in light of this next - utterly incorrect - statement:
    The answer is Rasczak supports ALL formats. He says what is good, he says what is bad. Those who have nailed their colours to individual formats can rarely show such a wide range of media.

    Obviously it is a VR disc and I know precisely what the problem is - it (or should I say they) are unfinalised!
     

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