Panasonic DMRES20D Freeview issues.

Mooly

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:hiya: New to this forum and looking for a bit of help with a Panasonic DMRES20D. Since the changes to Freeview (Split NIT) have had 3 items fail, a Daewoo (we all know about), a Sony IDTV and my Panasonic.
I am an electronics tech and have my suspicions as to whats happened with the Pana, but Panasonic will not discuss the matter.
The problem is an inability to recognise and store all channels and MUX's. I am on Winter Hill which is "unusual" in that as well as the main channels 56,60,63,66,67,68 there are two fill in channels at 40 and 43.
The problems happened on all equipment at the same time. On the Pana I have tried everything from factory resets to isolating and tuning each MUX separately. The result is that it's not possible to get all channels stored, usually missing BBC1/2 etc and BBC4 or else by "juggling" the RF input as it scans to isolate various MUX's can get these but then missing other channels.
So the question, I am convinced this is a software issue due to an inability to recognise the new "Format" correctly but what do you guys think. Anyone else had problems.
Thanks
 
I am on Winter Hill which is "unusual" in that as well as the main channels 56,60,63,66,67,68 there are two fill in channels at 40 and 43.


The problems happened on all equipment at the same time.

I am convinced this is a software issue due to an inability to recognise the new "Format" correctly but what do you guys think. Anyone else had problems.
Thanks

Welcome to the forum.

That the problem occurred on all your equipment at the same time strongly suggests that your aerial installation has been compromised in some way.
[ Poor bottom connections / Broken elements / Water in Downlead / Corroded upper connections / aerial rotated and misdirected.... etc

Also Winter Hill is not broadcasting any channels on 40 and 43 ... so you must be picking up another transmitter.

In any case, before doing any scans - do a complete scan without any aerial connected to completely empty the channel placeholders.

I am quite sure it will NOT be a software issue.
 
I am also on winter hill and as gav says there are no channel in the 40 range , they are what you said earlier between 56 and 68

I have just scanned manually these individual channels from 40 upwards and definitely nothing at 40 or 43 , they start at 56 and go up to 68 as you said earlier. tested using a goodmans lcd tv , a toshiba lcd tv and a sony 970b recorder

I have a sony idtv too and have had no problems with it either , although I know some freeview boxes have failed due to those new changes , like the daewoo for instance

I would make sure you have no other devices in the aerial chain sending out any rf channels above 40 , like a sky box , an old freeview ondigi box , humax pvr etc

try using a clean aerial feed into each device , with no other boxes in that feed so that you know its aerial only

lastly , I cannot say I have noticed any problems on any freeview boxes that I own , or any freeview recorders either , but a lot of my stuff is sony or toshiba or samsung etc
 
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I have a wideband aerial directed on Winter Hill.

My Panasonic DMRES20D is picking up all the channels on muxes between
56 and 68 as normal.

My other Panasonics are also receiving the channels as normal.

I also believe you have an aerial problem.
 
Hi,
Thanks for the replies, and bit more info on this problem.
Winter Hill has a "secondary" if thats the right word transmitter called Winter Hill B and this puts out on channels 40 and 43 as a fill in for I think 60 and 63 which are at low strength when received in certain areas. I believe it depends where in the primary service area you are as to whether you need ( or your receiver decides you need ) this. I am near Blackpool. All my receivers have used 40 and 43 from day one, and the signal strength on these is the highest of any of the MUX's. Will try and find out the history of this extra two MUX,s.
Heres the story, Daewoo DS608P had from early days stopped working on channel rescan, this was widely reported as down to split NIT problem.
Sony IDTV would not scan, sticks on 40%, contacted Sony and they confirm split NIT is problem. They have now put the affected models on the Sony website. Actually it's worse than that, I did a scan on this with no aerial connected to clear the memory before I realised the Sony was affected. Doing this has lost all MUX's and Sony have agreed to visit to update software manually (Laptop ?) as no O.A.D. now possible.
The Panasonic appears to find all the MUX's on a scan but appears not to store them, before the change there was no problem. Currently no BBC1 etc,
I also have a newish Sony HDD recorder and that's fine. I checked which channels were being used on this and that too uses 40 and 43. These come in at 98% strength, 60 and 63 come in at 70% and all the others around 85 to 90%
Somethings going on and it's all from the changes to the Freeview platform.
Will post any developments here hopefully.
And thanks for the interest/advice. Great Forum.
 
Me again,
Winter Hill B. Due to possible co channel interference with Llanddona in North Wales ch 60 and 63 are not directed toward the west of the primary service area from Winter Hill. This is where ch 40 and 43 come in. These transmit just to the west of the region and although "out of group" are picked up fine on group CD aerials.
And I am convinced that the rehashing of Freeview is to blame for the problem with the Panasonic, it's just too much of a coincidence.
 
Thanks for that :). I post a lot on another forum and always get caught by multiple posting there as well.
 
Me again,
Winter Hill B. Due to possible co channel interference with Llanddona in North Wales ch 60 and 63 are not directed toward the west of the primary service area from Winter Hill. This is where ch 40 and 43 come in. These transmit just to the west of the region and although "out of group" are picked up fine on group CD aerials.
And I am convinced that the rehashing of Freeview is to blame for the problem with the Panasonic, it's just too much of a coincidence.

As convinced as you may be, it is very likely that if there were a software problem, then it would have been predicted ... and it wasn't ...and there would be thousands of sufferers clamouring on these forums, and there isn't... so it seems reasonable to look to other causes first.

Channel 40 and 43 on the co-sited Winter Hill B transmitter are broadcasting Mux D and C respectively... which are duplicated on the main Winter Hill transmitter on Channels 60 and 63.

The scan is likely to pick up 40 and 43 first and so placeholders will be made for those muxes.
However, that should have no bearing on the muxes you imply are missing.
[i.e. Mux 1 and Mux B ]

It is likely that the problem is no more than that you can receive TOO many channels. [ Both Winter Hill transmitters ]

I'll emphasise again that you must do an 'empty scan' to clear out all your placeholders before attempting further scans or you will be wasting your time.
Resets do not achieve this.

Try a clean scan after such a clearout and report what muxes you do receive and which you don't.
 
Hi,
Right then, channel scan from a "clearout"
Just for info the Pana shows on the OSD the channel scan, ie 21 to 68, so you can see it "stop" at each MUX. This also makes it possible to quickly connect and disconect the aerial to try and get each MUX in turn if you want. The front panel display shows a running total of the services found. The number in brackets are the running total.
Full scan stops at Ch 40(19) 43(31) 56(37) 60(37) 63(37) 66(50) 67(50) 68(69)
So after this channels 40,43,56,66 are the only stored MUX's. CH68 which added to the total isn't there when you look at each program in turn. There are some "missing" channels now in the 800,s eg BBC4 on 815.
If I now "add new DVB service" 22 more are found, but no new MUX's.
Repeated this experiment twice -- same result.

Now do same again but only connect aerial when scan is past ch43. and now the MUX's stored are 56,60,63 and 66. Prog number 815 which was BBC4 above is now 4Music. Do an "add new service" again and no MUX's added, not even 40 and 43.
One more go, this time set to "shipping condition" and powered down, also I discharged the backup cap internally so this was a full as new switch on.
MUX's stored 56,66,67,68 only, now parliament and CBeebies BBC4 etc all in the 800's. Again add new service and no new channels found.
Hope that's not too confusing ;)
If ROYOLD is reading this have you got all channels on yours, eg UKTV History, Dave, Sky news etc . If you go into "check signal" and step through each program have you got all MUX's stored, 56,60,63,66,67 and 68.
I am still sure in my own mind this is a software issue, it's just too much of a coincidence that after being promted for a rescan following the changes it failed. I rechecked on the Sony HDD again the signal strengths as I was going from memory before, CH60 and 63 are low at 40 to 50 % , but 40 and 43 are sky high at 98% with all others not far behind.
That'll keep you guessing.
 
You are picking up both Winter Hill and Winter Hill B transmitters and as a result receiving too many channels and using up all your placeholders.

[ Specifically Mux C and D are being pulled in twice ]


Stop using the 'add new DVB service'

Always scan from an 'emptied' start.


Ideally you need to use an attenuator to pull channels 60 and 63 below the reception threshold... or contrive to miss them out when scanning.

Alternatively , scan whilst connected to someone else's aerial in the locality... and then do not rescan.

This channels per Mux table may be useful: Here
 
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Hi,
Thanks for replying again and thanks for the link. I don't think there's an easy answer to this somehow. I have spent in total 4 or 5 hours on this, with no real logic as to whats happening. I have tried attenuators going up in 3 db steps to 12 db. No change. I have tried "isolating" various MUXS's as well.
The big question is "Why has this trouble coincided with the change to Freeview". It was on this date the Pana flashed up message "new service found-rescan for channels" Never had any problems with rescans before and always had Ch40 and 43 stored MUX's.
I will hopefully try and find out more about this. Why is it putting all the CH67 programs in the 800's I wonder, when 40 and 43 have not been scanned.
Thanks again and I will update this if I find anymore out. By the way I did try a scan with an indoor aerial ( I know :), but what can you do !! ) , still the same result.
 
It really sounds as if the placeholders are not truly emptying.
Hi,
Thanks for replying again and thanks for the link. I don't think there's an easy answer to this somehow. I have spent in total 4 or 5 hours on this, with no real logic as to whats happening. I have tried attenuators going up in 3 db steps to 12 db. No change.

Do you know whether they proved enough to remove channels 60 and 63?


I have tried "isolating" various MUXS's as well.
Not specifically 60 and 63 if I correctly understand your account so far.
The big question is "Why has this trouble coincided with the change to Freeview". It was on this date the Pana flashed up message "new service found-rescan for channels" Never had any problems with rescans before and always had Ch40 and 43 stored MUX's.
Maybe your aerial was not picking up 60 and 63 before - but is now. There are lots of transmitting aerial changes going on currently.
I will hopefully try and find out more about this. Why is it putting all the CH67 programs in the 800's I wonder, when 40 and 43 have not been scanned.
I suspect because the placeholders have not been emptied from a previous scan .
This is a known problem which is why the blank scan approach is recommended.
Thanks again and I will update this if I find anymore out. By the way I did try a scan with an indoor aerial ( I know :), but what can you do !! ) , still the same result.

Check in the tuning menu to see which DVB software version you have.
 
Just glancing through this thread, it seems that Winter Hill A/B set's its own technical challenges. Maybe the engineers responsible for the implementation of the spilt-NIT upgrade have not fully understood it.
One would assume that the WH-B channels require their own version of the NIT, but is it within the capabilities of the transmitter to supply that, and the other four mux will be transmitting the same NIT in all directions, how is that useful to the receivers of 'B' broadcasts?
Maybe the OP is in a minority, using this particular receiver at such an affected location, but that does not prove he is unique there may be many users who have not yet rescanned, have not posted on forums, or who have not contacted the manufacturer or broadcaster.
As Gavtech finally pointed out, the installed firmware version may be important.
 
I have, in the last 15 mins checked my DMRES20D for all channels using the
"signal quality" option in SETUP and I have 86 channels on all six muxes using channels 56, 60, 63, 66, 67 and 68 from Winter Hill main transmitter. Noted that BBC Parliament is showing the Olympics as are channels 301 and 302.

I have never picked up channels 40 or 43 from WH "B" - maybe because of the position my aerial is directed from here in Oldham.

Signal quality on all channels is close to 10 apart from Channel 68 which is approx 8 (this is the worst channel and has always been lower than the others).

N.B. I haven't rescanned this machine for new channels for three months or so and have no intention of doing so just now. The rainy weather affects my signal quality so a rescan may lose me some channels until I can rescan in good weather.

Meantime my group B, 18 element aerial continues to provide me with 46 channels from 4 muxes in good quality whatever the weather. This is my old HTV aerial directed on Moel-y-Parc transmitter near Rhyl. Cannot receive Muxes C & D on Chans 30 and 34 because power is only 250W (its 1KW on the others).
 
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Hi,
Just a quick reply, not tried again yet.
Thanks ROYOLD for checking. This is an NIT issue, am more convinced than ever now. Firmware is 1.13
Tried yesterday from a "clearout" -- good expression that :thumbsup:, and discharged the internal back up cap as well.
As it now stands Ch 40 and 43 and 56,66,67,68 are present BUT the channel positions are wrong -- all the progs on ch 67 are stored with numbers in the 800's.
NVingo I think could be spot on with his comments, and as Gavtech says, I am getting Winter Hill A and B together but thats the way it's always been in this area. The receivers seem to sort out the MUX's (they did should I say) and although the scan stops at 60 and 63 they should be ignored.

Weird things are happening for sure.
 
Have Sony sorted out your TV yet?
 
Hi,
Thats a long a story as well, it's getting there. If I knew how to link to other threads you could read all about it ;) it's very interesting- I am not alone ! It's in the "CRT Television" forum which to be honest I can't find. I didn't start the thread, found it by chance. Enter SONY KD32DX200U in the search box and it's one of two similar sounding threads that comes up -- the one with loads of postings. Just looked it's called "Sony DX50 cannot retune the IDTV"
 
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like royold I am on the south east side of winter hill so we dont see this winter hill b transmitter , just the standard one with the standard muxes , as detailed earlier

as for your tv thread , its here ( copy and paste the thread in question )

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=804605

and here http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803934

crt tv forum is here http://www.avforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=42

must check if my sony idtv crt is affected , probably is but I havent noticed a problem with it
its a KD28DL11U
 
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Thanks for that, if you scan the Sony and it just stops part way through, just press exit. Nothing else, so you don't lose the MUX's stored.
 
Hope you don't view this as a thread hijack...it is about a DMRES20D DTT problem ;)

Not mine, but a neighbour. It was working fine until about 10 days ago, now no picture on any DTT source, although guide etc is all good. Analogue OK, same signal feeds a Pana TV via the DMR and this works perfectly on DTT. Tried a re-scan, grabbed loads of signal on loads of channels...but no picture on any of them, just black, and the info bar keeps popping up.

Could someone please confirm that a DMRES20D should be working fine (assuming a solid signal) on the latest iteration of DTT broadcasts please?

Cheers!
 
Hope you don't view this as a thread hijack...it is about a DMRES20D DTT problem ;)

Not mine, but a neighbour. It was working fine until about 10 days ago, now no picture on any DTT source, although guide etc is all good. Analogue OK, same signal feeds a Pana TV via the DMR and this works perfectly on DTT. Tried a re-scan, grabbed loads of signal on loads of channels...but no picture on any of them, just black, and the info bar keeps popping up.

Could someone please confirm that a DMRES20D should be working fine (assuming a solid signal) on the latest iteration of DTT broadcasts please?

Cheers!

I doubt there will be any problem with reception, especially as channels are indicated as being present... and a rescan was only forced, presumably due to the black screen problem in the first place.

Firstly, I assume you will have done a power reset just to clear the small possibility of an incorrectly latched video mute.... otherwise one wonders at the capacitor in the Tuner supply problem [ although I would not expect it to be able to tune at all if this was the problem ] ... or a blown switching chip.

I assume that AV signals fed in still display OK?
 
Thanks for that.

When I first came to it, it was a bit upset, had no guide data and wouldn't go into 'signal strength' mode so I did a rescan. After this, it appeared as it should, apart from having no picture of course.

Analogue tuner works fine, it replays DVDs fine too, so it's looking as if it's a proper fault, rather than a 'feature', as it where.

I'll give the thing a full reset/rescan as a last resort - if that fails, I'll recommend the owner to claim on their extended warranty and get it repaired.

Cheers.
 
Hi,
Not hijacking the thread at all -- I started it for DTT issues on the DMRES20 which I have not had answered yet.
Agree with trying the full reset. Select "shipping condition" in the menu and this will do a full reset. Give it time to power down (can't remember if it goes into standby on it's own or whether you have to put it to standby) just give it a minute from the reset and see what happens. and then pull the plug out for a minute or so. When you plug it back in it should automatically switch on and begin auto searching. Again just give it a minute from re powering to see if it does come on itself.
I am interested -- let me know what happens.
 
Could someone please confirm that a DMRES20D should be working fine (assuming a solid signal) on the latest iteration of DTT broadcasts please?

Cheers!

Working fine for me on Mendip and the welsh transmitter.
 

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