Panasonic DMR-XP12 HDD/DVD Recorder - High Def MPEG4 Recording?

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by Rasczak, Jan 18, 2008.

  1. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    Does anyone have any info on the upcoming Panasonic DMR-XP12 HDD/DVD Recorder? In particular I am interested in the apparent MPEG4 recording options:

    Sounds quite interesting. Panasonic have dabbled with MPEG4 recording on their DVD recorders before (the E100) but that turned out to be little more than a gimmick in the grand scheme of things especially as it was centred around the solid media slot. So I wonder if this will turn out to be different.

    The fact that MPEG4 content can be recorded to the HDD or DVD is encouraging. However too many unknowns at present:
    - Is it possible to record from the DVB tuner in MPEG4 (or is it just for the iLink connection)?
    - Can standard def material be recorded in high def in MPEG4 (obviously with the hope of capturing the SD picture with the highest PQ)?
    - What variant of MPEG4 is used? Is it AVC or a non-compatible variant?
    - What sort of recording times can be achieved on 4.7/8.5GB DVDR discs?
     
  2. Hal_loe

    Hal_loe
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    It sounds very similar to what they did before.

    Guess will have to wait for the full specs from Panasonic.

    Edit: Just had an indepth look and these are for the Japanese market....
     
  3. Gavtech

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    These machines [ ...there is a sister machine DMR XP22 which includes a VHS deck astonishingly ] seem to be unusually down market devices, especially for Japan.
    Their purpose seems to be a way of getting HD recording, but without using using HD media.
    They record in a 4X Long play mode MPEG4 AVC which allows 1.5 / 3 Hours per SL / DL disc.
    Obviously the DVD's it produces will be totally non standard and play nowhere else.

    The SD slot is likely to be used in a similar way as these two Bluray HD recorders... See:

    http://www.techtree.com/India/Worlds_First_Blu-ray_Disc_Recorders/551-76021-615.html

    .. which is to provide a link with existing SD devices, nothing more... and Panasonic have always maintained SD cards as so crippled as to be pointless.

    In your queries Rasczak you wondered about recording SD DVB sources in MPEG4. As these machines are not intended for this market, it is not applicable... but I can't see a great deal of point to that anyway?
    Most of the damage will already have been done by the MPEG2 delivery.
    Presumably you mean that recording in MPEG4 would be an improvement on the subsequent 2nd MPEG2 encoding that occurs in DVDR's?


    I am not unduly displeased that such devices are not coming here. I don't like this this 'blood out of a stone' approach, and hope it is not the way things are going to go. [All the signs are I will be disappointed. ]

    One tech journalist even stated..." With compression like that, the fuss about Blu-ray and HD DVD begins to look pointless."
    That struck me as a really dumb thing to say.
    We could compress HD down until it fitted onto a floppy... but of course what would be the point. There is always a price to play.

    The HD transmission and storage standards are already crippled by enormous compression, and I feel it devalues the whole future and point of Hidef to continually increase the compression further.

    I feel we should be looking to devices to reduce the compression... to do less... better.
     
  4. dicky

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  5. Gavtech

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  6. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    I am currently using anaging Panasonic EH60D which I find produces a superb recorded image from the DVB tuner and does everything I need it to on the recording side - very reliable, allows buffer times to be set before/after programmes, produces superb PQ in XP mode and has a fairly robust system against accidental subtitle recording. I record everything in XP mode and, for things I wish to keep, copy to my PC HDD for streaming around the house. I do no further re-encoding other than using TMPG Editor to make precise edits (which just re-encodes the surrounding frames).

    My interest in MPEG4 recording then is if it offers an equal (or better) recording quality but using less space. Now HDD space isn't a massive problem but if less can be used without any compromise to quality then it would be nice - if nothing else for laptop and portable video uses. Of course I could re-encode my current recordings but that would just add a third unnecessary encoding cycle. It would also make it easier to transfer 1hr plus files to the PC rather than split onto multiple DVD-RAMs/DVDRs.

    Disappointed to hear of the Japan only launch though - I agree the models look 'low specced' for such a release. Any idea when the new UK models will appear and what new features they will sport?
     
  7. marty2005

    marty2005
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    MPEG 4 allows more space to be recorded like what the LG's have been doing for years.

    GavTech you obviously know more than AVLand do !!!

    If they are being released in Japan only then why are AVLand getting them in stock?

    Nowhere on your 2 links does it say Japan only.
     
  8. marty2005

    marty2005
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    Just read a few blogs that said,

    "Sadly, neither is likely to be made available overseas."

    Yet AVLand tend to advertise stock early and get them so I can't see why they would make a mistake.

    Let's see what $ony brings to the table. XMB ?
     
  9. AVmaster

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    To my knowledge they are not the models planned for the UK, and the only HDD feature added for 2008/09 is MP3 ripping & storage, plus USB camcorder transfer.

    A the others have said. The Panasonic MPEG4 feature was for low resolution/filesize movies to be made mobile via SD cards to be played back on mobile equipment such as portable DVD players & MP3/AV devices.
     
  10. Rasczak

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    However the new models are sporting high def MPEG4 recording...
     
  11. marty2005

    marty2005
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    The hi-def will be for Japan not the UK since they can record from hd sources.

    In the UK model, you can't record hd if it's not there on the input.

    Maybe at last pana will play back divx/xvid in the uk?
     
  12. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    Indeed, but does iLink support HD input from (e.g.) a camcorder?
     
  13. Gavtech

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    As it happens, I routinely use an EH60D too.
    I was puzzled by your comment about 'accidental subtitle recording'?
    This is obviously a problem I have not encountered.

    Regarding TMPG, do you happen to have the latest version? [ V4 if I recollect? ... the version capable of dealing with HD material.] The reason I ask is I have only used a trial version (non HD) and was recently contemplating investing in it... but I was then faced with a choice of versions.
    I do not actually require HD capability yet, but wondered if it may be worth it in other ways.
    I can see now how it could be of use to you ... but would the lack of disc playability elsewhere not be a limitation... if you were to save any material to disc? [ but see below ]

    The information given so far on those machines does not make clear how it deals with SD material and / or whether it would be possible to re-encode say, HDD HD MPEG4 recordings into standard MPEG2 DVD's.
    It seems likely to me that would be possible... and maybe the only way that material can be stored on DVD. Perhaps they would not permit non standard MPEG4 onto a DVD.

    However I am non usefully speculating in the absence of hard information, and it appears for your kind of use that would have no bearing - if you are transferring to PC... except , would such a machine permit you to get MPEG4 OFF the hard disc.. if it was configured as I suggest it may be above?
    MPEG4 may be tied to the hard disc only. I tend to think that is likely the way they will do it... knowing Panasonic.
    I do not have any hard information at present. I would expect information to appear in March for a early summer release.
    I am not expecting any significant changes in model capability... and there may be even less.
    Removal of analogue connectors on front AV3 inputs is a possibility as we move inexorably to the analogue sunset.
    But again - this is just speculation... and is pointless... but it 's very hard to resist. :)
     
  14. AVmaster

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    I'm told that DIVX playback will be available on all but the basic non HDD model(s)
     
  15. NX3

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    Avmaster, any ideas when the uk get divx/xvid playback models?
     
  16. AVmaster

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    2 DIVX HDD models in March & another 2 to follow, that's aside from the non HDD models coming out first, although they apparently won't play DIVX.
    A good excuse to buy a HDD/DVD recorder really.
     
  17. marty2005

    marty2005
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    I think they have to include divx/xvid in the uk as every other manufacturer includes it and does not remove it specifically from the uk market.

    They say that divx is not important in the uk, yet every av device plays it back.

    Perhaps they were loosing sales and realised that divx is used in the uk but I do not know how they came to that conclusion in the first place.

    I think it was just cost cutting, using older chipsets without divx support.
     
  18. Gavtech

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    Hi Marty

    They may have held it back deliberately to provide a 'must buy' feature for the new range... knowing that there is little left to do in product development terms.

    Also I would assume that this feature is relatively negligible in cost terms to provide.

    What I am more interested in is not what they provide in the new range so much as what they remove.

    Panasonic have a long history of doing this - They take away a number of background features that one has come to automatically expect ... and usually they are so downplayed that one does not discover it until you go to use it and it simply is not there.

    However - It is so easy to get sucked into the pointless speculation game... so let's just wait and see.

    I guess you'll be pleased at least that they are finally getting their act together on DivX.
     
  19. marty2005

    marty2005
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    They haven't included divx for years though.

    I think they know that people are buying divx machines since people in the UK are internet savy.

    There isn't much more you can add to dvd recorders.

    Visualizations when playing back mp3's.
    Id Tags with pics.
    Ethernet so you can program your dvd recorder when away from home or on your pc.
    Play from dvd recorder to pc/tv with ethernet.
    Themes, config of display and colors.
    External hard disk to extend storeage.

    Just gotta try and get the manuals to see what it can do.
    And we won't know how fast it is until it is reviewed or someone gets one.

    Then there is gonna be a new Sony.

    I like my Sony hxd970 but the menus/osd is too plain, boring and small, almost 1980's.
     
  20. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    I'm a little out of touch on current DVD recorders (my EH60D was so good I knew it wouldn't need a replacement for years so lost touch with developments) - but my first DVB equipped DVD Recorder was the Sony GXD500. This model recorded 'burnt it' subtitles if you had them selected at the time - the Panasonic was much better by having the option in the Timer menu to record them or not. Whether these have been remedied in later models or not I don't know.

    Afraid not - only the SD version (that's all I need at present).

    Not really - rather than commit my recordings to disc for playability compatibility I archive them on the main PC's HDD and just stream them around the house now. As a PC gamer I have so much redundant PC tech around the house rebuilding a few HTPC/Media Hubs wasn't really too much of a problem. Naturally I have a robust backup procedure in case of failure but it means I can avoid the capacity limitations of DVD as well as keep files in their native format without having to re-encode to within the specs of DVD.

    Your probably right - I knew it was a long shot but I thought I would ask. XP MPEG2 is spot on TBH so it would be difficult for them to improve on that anyway especially with a (presumably) first gen encoder.

    Yeah, Panasonic do tend to be fairly conservative about sticking to specs. That said the AV Land list (which could well be wrong) did state "Record HD content to HDD or DVD" which would obviously suggest it would be possible (and non-standard).

    Speculation is great :) I don't suppose there is any as to when we might see a Panasonic HDD/Blu-ray recorder outside of Japan? It would be great for high capacity SD recording if nothing else!
     
  21. AVmaster

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    Not this year unless FreeSat or anyone else allow HD to be recorded as Sky certainly won't.
    As you say, the technology is already out there, but the problem is that HDD recording for longer SD recording is far cheaper than releasing a BluRay SD recorder that they wouldn't be able to gaurantee would record any UK HD format as it can't be tested. That's why the only BluRay recorder in the UK is in a Hitachi HD camcorder.
    Basically this means that we'll have to wait for a recordable HD source before any manufacturers can launch a reliable HD recorder.
     
  22. foneman

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    You CAN add more to DVD recorders, but this would either break various agreements, or be far to expensive in licence fees, and companies are too scared about making things that are too expensive, that they would not be bought....

    eg..
    copy from USB to HDD
    Ethernet you can use to copy to/from your PC...
    (you can get an add-on for the above, but you cannot include it 'inside' ..)

    twin Digital tuners on a DVD recorder

    One good thing they can add, is a 'DVD Menu Designer' that is as good as Nero on the PC... now there is a challenge for interface design, using only a remote control...

    - If you have not used a PC or Nero, think of making a fully animated menu like pre-recorded DVDs...
     

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