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Panasonic AE700 and vertical banding: what is it? any one have any examples?

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by MAD ANDY, Jan 18, 2005.

  1. MAD ANDY

    MAD ANDY
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    It appears the Panasonic AE700 is the only pj coming within budget, throw distance/screen size and with the features I need plus superb reviews :thumbsup:

    if only it was always that easy :(

    I keep seeing this vertical banding being splashed about, but cant find a definitive answer as to what it actually is or any specific picture examples - can anyone help before I buy one!

    Also noticed the AE700 comes with an RGB scart socket yet one review I read showing a pic from behind didnt have it, is the scart standard?

    Any positive reviews on the AE700 also greatly appreciated! :)

    cheers
     
  2. AVSreaper

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  3. Oakleyspatz

    Oakleyspatz
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    The pic may have been of the US version where they do not use our scart system, they use just S video and Component . Oh and HDMI/DVI too !
     
  4. explicitlyrics

    explicitlyrics
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    As far as I can tell, hardly anybody hasnoticed the VB in ages and ages! I think I have at last seen it, but even now I am not sure, even after knowing what I am looking for (even testing it in the situations it is vulnerable - low texture, pale scenes).

    If possible get a demo, if not then I would go for it, you can read the reviews till the cows come home and never get anywhere. I bought mine blind and wouldnt trade it for the world (well maybe :p), but im completely happy! :)
     
  5. MAD ANDY

    MAD ANDY
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    yeah read about it having the HDMI port, sounds better to have that than DVI so pleased with that :D

    explicitlyrics - how do you find the noise of the fan? as my current Sanyo PLC-XW15 is quite noisy at 39dB but read at 26dB the AE700 is almost silent, yet if 39dB is quite noisy, how can only 13dB less be silient?
     
  6. Dunkwho

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    Ok ... have a look against my name for a thread about VB on a 700 that I started a few weeks back. Basically VB is when you can see faint dark lines running vertically on the screen evenly spaced (width dependant on your image size of course :) ). This is something that caused me alot of concern with the 700 I purchased at the end of Novemeber. After a lot of research, promises of resolving the problem by using the flicker adjust etc I contacted the supplier and arranged a return of the unit - I took some photos, enclosed a CD with the pics on, and posted it back. They were very good - hooked it up, spent ages trying to recreate it but decided they couldn't see it ... and swapped the unit out for another anyway because of the clear evidence I'd shown in the pics. The new unit also shows VB - arguably more faintly and I'm convinced that they practically disappear after 30mins use ...

    That all sounds negative - it shouldn't be. I appreciate the PJ for what it is - I'm a bugger for things like this, if theres some hint of a problem I can't help myself disappearing off looking for it then worrying about it. I've accepted this very very (VERY!) slight draw back with the 700 and love using it everytime it comes on. I use my panasonic TV happily (even with darker patches if I go up that same tunnel looking for them), I enjoy my integra type-R every day I commute to and from work even with the short comings (its not a ferrari ... no where near - it doesn't cost ferrari money) ... I hope I'm getting my point across. Nothing else fits my requirement for throw distance & mounting options and gives a picture anywhere near this unit. I can use it in the daylight (obviously blacks aren't as black ! :) ) ... its great! My brother in law (kinda ... will be soon!) has ordered the same unit as is overjoyed with his too. Its got VB if you play the right scene and look hard - my opinion is that its something inescapable with LCD projectors, DLP has rainbows - LCD has VB until you get to huge money (see ferrari comment). I dragged the AE100 out to compare the other day, see if thats got VB etc ... the image quality is sooo poor on the 100 compared to the 700 that you couldn't see VB, the screendoor\chickenwire is so prominent.

    Set your expectations correctly, see one of these great PJs running if you can arrange to before you buy.

    Sorry for the ramble :)

    Duncan.
     
  7. Matt_H

    Matt_H
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    As Dunc's 'kinda will be soon brother-in-law' I wholeheartedly agree with his comments. You can - just - see VB if you look hard enough at the right scene, on both our 700's, but if you actually watch the film rather than trying to spot the inadequecies, you probably won't see it.

    You have to remember that these are 'budget' projectors, you can pay upwards of £20k for the latest 3 chip DLP PJ's, but for a little more than 1/20th of this money you can get a 100" plus screen in your own living room! How fabulous is that! I for one love the cinematic experience these cheap PJ's can give you for CRT TV money! The picture is brilliant 95% of the time, to get the other 5%, well, you need to spend more of your hard earned!

    There are some PJ's that people notice VB less on, like the Sanyo Z3, so if its lens/throw meets your requirements, try it out, but I seriously doubt you'll notice much difference between most of the popular PJ's at this price point.

    Also, I sit with the unit about 2ft from my head, and can hardly hear it when I'm watching a film.

    Matt
     
  8. pez

    pez
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    virtually no banding here to speak of, just this brightness flicker.

    pez
     
  9. silentbob

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    OK, in my experience - VB on the panasonic units is symptom of something else.

    If I leave my PJ in standby for any length of time (say over 20 minutes) and then begin to use it again without first removing mains power (or using the switch) for around 40mins first - the PJ's image will suffer from a weird issue that I will attempt to descibe below.

    It's as if the display is 'semi' interlaces, OR that the refresh rate has been dropped. The image shows less detail and exhibits a sort of shimmerimg effect over the horizonal axis.

    Now, this effect is actually quite obvious from within a metres viewing distance (although the drop in detail is also evident from further away) - but a side effect of this is that VB becomes readily apparent in the usual places (even in some not so usual).

    I must stress that once a power cycles is performed properly, this artifact completely disappears.

    I am convinced that this problem is present to a lesser or greater degree on ALL Panny 700's and is related / the cause of VB.
     
  10. paulfoley

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    I concur what Silent Bob has said. I tried everything to rid my Panny of VB - HTPC, RFI Filters, Flicker Tweaks, DVI Player, etc. All of these helped but I never eliminated it until I started switching off the mains from the PJ after every viewing (after cool down obviously). I havent seen any VB on it in months !

    :rotfl:
     
  11. pez

    pez
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    As well as VB (which ive only just noticed! i always thought it was my free screen being stretched a bit!), ive also noticed something that i also see on my mobile phone LCD screen - something that looks like waves running across it on certain colours. Any ideas what that would be?

    That brightness flicker is still my biggest gripe (the one that panasonic says isnt there).

    pez
     
  12. Darwock

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    Also backed up by a demo I did to a friend once, having forgotten to turn off at the mains the night before. He spotted the VB instantly. Nobody else I'd ever showed it to had seen it.

    And as a consequence of seeing it at it's worst, he also noticed it when it was really faint because he was looking for it.
     
  13. MAD ANDY

    MAD ANDY
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    thanks for that, you can certainly see them in the first shot! how did you rid them in the second?

    yeah I used to feel the same about my 400bhp Sierra Cosworth (and that -was- quicker than a ferrari ;) cost more to run too! :( ) but yeah I know what you mean :)

    yeah thats my issue too

    hmm... not so sure I would agree with that, my Sanyo PLC-XW15 is LCD and does suffer from screendoor, but definitely doesnt have a single vertical banding line at all... in fact apart from the screenwire its perfect, even impressed with the pic quality using composite DOH! in fact check out the link in my sig for some pics of my setup including some screen shots, and even though taken with a 1.3mp camcorder hence ignore quality, defo no vertical lines on the screen

    only reason I am interested in upgrading is for a clearer picture with no screendoor and a quieter fan, as at 39dB sitting with it about 1.5ft above my head its quite noisy!

    Download the zip link above, my panny looks like the second screen
     
  14. MikeRJ

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    Likewise, never noticed any banding at all on my ultra budget Epson, just a bit of screen door.

    Does anyone have a good link that explains exactly what the cause of VB is?
     
  15. Mole69

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    I work in a shop where we have a PT-AE700 running from a Pana SA-XR70 amp, sending out an HDMI feed to the projector. The XR70 is being fed from a Pana DVD-S97 dvd player via the HDMI output, so the signal path is completely digital. and yep, the vertical bands are clear to see. Thought we may have had a dud, but it seems not.
     
  16. paulfoley

    paulfoley
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    Mole69. Can you try this - after each power down in the evening disconnect from the mains. Let us all know what its like the next day. Should be better but you may have to do the flicker tweak as well?

    :thumbsup:
     
  17. roym

    roym
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    i have the 700 and it suffered from vb, i then started to power off at the rocker switch after using it. it works a treat no vb from the moment i start watching. the other night i forgot to switch off at the rocker switch and the next viewing i had bad vb for about the fisrt 30 minutes so it pays to switch off.

    p.s. the picture from this pj is fantastic!
     
  18. doink

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    The decibal scale is logarithmic.
     
  19. MAD ANDY

    MAD ANDY
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    yeah cheers for that :thumbsup: ...... er... what does it mean?
     
  20. 3wrLcs

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    MAD andy

    I purchased a 700 a couple of weeks ago because of the throw ratio, positive reviews and a friend has one that is virtually VB free. I now have a total of 12 hours of use, 10 on a table cloth and since yesterday 2 hours on a proper screen. On the table cloth I had no obvious VB, however on a proper screen whilst the overall picture was much improved the is some obvious VB. I guess that choosing Master and Commander to watch provided a very stiff test due to the amount of cloudy/foggy scenes. I went into the purchase with my eyes open and believing that if I had the problem I would be able to tweak it out. However, now I'm not so sure, on scenes without VB the picture using a S97 DVD is fantastic but when the VB is present I do have some concern. I've tried the flicker tweak to no affect and I've never left the unit in standby always powering off.

    Unfortunatley as the screen was out of stock when I ordered the PJ I have had the 700 for more than 7 days so can't return it under the distance selling regulations. If I could I would. I've contacted the shop where I purchased the unit from and hope the will show mercy on me and take it back.

    3wrLcs
     
  21. MAD ANDY

    MAD ANDY
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    ah... was gonna say have you tried this :(

    yeah thats a good point, although not too sure how close to this you are, but bear in mind its 7 -working- days which may help if you havent included two weekends :)
     
  22. John7

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    I have a new AE700

    On first use, out of the box, no VB

    Projector was left on standby overnight. Powered up the following day to show a friend....OMG!...serious VB

    Powered off after cooldown (turned off rocker switch) Fired up last night - no VB at all!

    Seems that this PJ needs to be powered off between uses?

    Other than that, the picture quality of this PJ is awesome - i have no complaints whatsoever (HDMI feed from Pio 868)
     
  23. doink

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    In essence it just means its Nonlinear.
     
  24. WonkyEwok

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    Every 3db (or maybe 6, I can't remember :blush: ) is a doubling in amplitude of the signal. So for a -12dB difference the signal is 16 times smaller (12/3 = 4, and 2^4 = 16). (Alternatively, every 10dB is 10* the amplitude, which works out identical to the 3dB method). Our ears aren't linear, though, so the sound isn't 16 times quieter but it should be a significant difference. I can't remember the formula for ears' response :blush: but if you search for 'decibel' you should find stuff.
     
  25. Craig Armstrong

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    Also note that the 7 working day cooling off period can extend to three months and 7 working days if certain information is not given to you at time of order or on delivery - check out Office for Fair Trading guidance on this point ;)
     
  26. Craig Armstrong

    Craig Armstrong
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    Oh, and I should add that I think the AE700 and AE500 have the same fan decibel rating - even on low lamp mose the AE500's noise annoyed me during quieter scenes. It was mounted approx five feet in front of me, mounted to the ceiling. This was in part due to the fact that it was darwing/blowing air from a side vent and I could quieten it by placing a cut away plastic box to try and funnel air from the from the front of the PJ, which was not ideal. My HS50 is quieter to my ears.
     
  27. AVSreaper

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    I did not create this zip. It was posted a while back on this forum. If my memory serves, I believe it was an AE500 and it was before and after the flicker tweak. I just posted it to show what the effect looks like. I think this is one of the best demonstrations of VB since you can compare before/after. I hope it helped.

    AVSreaper
     
  28. explicitlyrics

    explicitlyrics
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    yes, it is an old zip archive, the second picture is after the 'flicker tweak' has been applied. This has fixed most peoples problems with this projector.
     
  29. 3wrLcs

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    I've tried both versions of the flicker tweak (stop flicker on the 3 individual colours and stop on green and set other 2 to same value) and still suffer, the second tweak did seem to improve things a bit though. I watched first contact yesterday and due to the nature of the film there was little VB however, master and commander is still pretty ropey.

    I'm still hopeful that things will improve with more hours on the clock or the dealer will have some ideas.

    3wrLcs
     
  30. MAD ANDY

    MAD ANDY
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    yeah funnily enough I read that earlier, with some info I dont remember receiving in the past either and hence could have played this trick lol
     

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