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Panasonic 2012 models with Lumagen

HD Elvis

Established Member
Given that the TPS Meet up thread and the VT50 thread have been taken up with much discussion around Lumagens and also taking the Mod's point around keeping things on track, I thought I would create a thread for the purposes of discussing Panny's 2012 models linked to a Lumagen in order to mull over the various advantages, or not, this would have for some owners.

I realise there is an area to specifically discuss video processors and scalers which can be found here Video Scalers and Video Processing | AVForums.com - UK Online however it would appear quite a few members would like to specifically discuss Panasonic's 2012 Plasma Displays in conjunction with Lumagens and therefore maybe there is a need for a unique thread here to discuss. Feel free to delete Mods, if you disagree.:smashin:

I'll start off, why is it a Lumagen seems to be so important in eeking out the very last bit of quality to the Panny 50 range when they were never really needed to the same extent for the KRP/Kuro range?:D;)
 
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Scooby2000

Distinguished Member
Given that the TPS Meet up thread and the VT50 thread have been taken up with much discussion around Lumagens and also taking the Mod's point around keeping things on track, I thought I would create a thread for the purposes of discussing Panny's 2012 models linked to a Lumagen in order to mull over the various advantages, or not, this would have for some owners.

I realise there is an area to specifically discuss video processors and scalers which can be found here Video Scalers and Video Processing | AVForums.com - UK Online however it would appear quite a few members would like to specifically discuss Panasonic's 2012 Plasma Displays in conjunction with Lumagens and therefore maybe there is a need for a unique thread here to discuss. Feel free to delete Mods, if you disagree.:smashin:

I'll start off, why is it a Lumagen seems to be so important in eeking out the very last bit of quality to the Panny 50 range when they were never really needed to the same extent for the KRP/Kuro range?:D;)

:smashin: though context needs to be with plasma to stay in this forum.;)
 

Insanity202

Distinguished Member
Im wondering if there would be much difference in a dark room with an st with a luma and a vt with a luma.
 

Scooby2000

Distinguished Member
Im wondering if there would be much difference in a dark room with an st with a luma and a vt with a luma.

I think Bumptious will be posting answers to such questions at some point.;)
 

Insanity202

Distinguished Member
Scooby2000 said:
I think Bumptious will be posting answers to such questions at some point.;)

Awesome sauce!!!
 

Gordon @ Convergent AV

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Given that the TPS Meet up thread and the VT50 thread have been taken up with much discussion around Lumagens and also taking the Mod's point around keeping things on track, I thought I would create a thread for the purposes of discussing Panny's 2012 models linked to a Lumagen in order to mull over the various advantages, or not, this would have for some owners.

I realise there is an area to specifically discuss video processors and scalers which can be found here Video Scalers and Video Processing | AVForums.com - UK Online however it would appear quite a few members would like to specifically discuss Panasonic's 2012 Plasma Displays in conjunction with Lumagens and therefore maybe there is a need for a unique thread here to discuss. Feel free to delete Mods, if you disagree.:smashin:

I'll start off, why is it a Lumagen seems to be so important in eeking out the very last bit of quality to the Panny 50 range when they were never really needed to the same extent for the KRP/Kuro range?:D;)

actually they were needed on the Kuro's (if you wanted the best image quality)...it's just that i seemed to be the lone voice saying this....which is perhaps why i have quite a few customers with Kuro's and lumagens...and i would expect worldwide there are many more. In actual fact the cms in Kuros and indeed in all Pioneer tv's is rubbish and doesn't work properly...but no-one really seemed to mention that too much:D The Kuro CMS was a 1D CMS....it was a 6 point HUE control. What is actually needed is a 6 point hue,saturation and luminance control. That hue control in the pioneers, when used causes non linearities in the greyscale that are not correctable. Pioneer, in their infinite wisdom, chose to not bother to actually fix this error in the entire time they were producting tv's and instead put their multi-point rgb gamma control in the isf interface to try to mitigate the problems use of the cms caused. (band aid anyone!) There was a way to get delta errors for colour down low but it was not the correct or ideal way. (ie turning down or up colour control)

On another note. The panasonics have a CMS control that does affect hue, saturation and luminance. The nomenclature they use suggest that this control works in HSL colourspace. This is not ideal either though but it is miles better than what Kuro did. That means that if you use it to fix colour errors at one saturation point it is quite likely it will be wrong at others. I do not know this for a fact but it wouldn't be surprising. Lumagens CMS works in linear RGB colourspace and will not induce any such errors. The reason that tv manufacturers would choose to do this maths in HSL rather than RGB is that it takes up less processing resources I believe. lumagen themselves started their CMS project for RADIANCE in HSL space but stopped and went back to drawing board when they realised it was not going to result in the reference image quality they wanted to achieve.

It might also be wise to consider the use of a lumagen not just as a means to fix issues with calibrating a display but also a way to increase the performance of the sources plugged in to it. Lumagens have superior de-interlacing and scaling to any tv. They also can take SD from a SKyHD box and make it much better.

Hope that's some use
 
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Scooby2000

Distinguished Member
actually they were needed on the Kuro's (if you wanted the best image quality)...it's just that i seemed to be the lone voice saying this....which is perhaps why i have quite a few customers with Kuro's and lumagens...and i would expect worldwide there are many more. In actual fact the cms in Kuros and indeed in all Pioneer tv's is rubbish and doesn't work properly...but no-one really seemed to mention that too much:D There was a way to get delta errors for colour down low but it was not the correct or ideal way. (ie turning down or up colour control)

It might also be wise to consider the use of a lumagen not just as a means to fix issues with calibrating a display but also a way to increase the performance of the sources plugged in to it. Lumagens have superior de-interlacing and scaling to any tv. They also can take SD from a SKyHD box and make it much better.

Hope that's some use

Bumptious told me about this today, poor CMS but good at pixel level. Where as it's the opposite with this years Panasonics. He actually told me more but not for here.
 
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Insanity202

Distinguished Member
Scooby2000 said:
Bumptious told me about this today, poor XMAS but good at pixel level. Where as it's the opposite with this years Panasonics. He actually told me more but not for here.

Poor xmas??? Lol
 

SgtHowie

Established Member
Im wondering if there would be much difference in a dark room with an st with a luma and a vt with a luma.
I've been wondering the same thing. If the performance is close then the ST plus the box of tricks would make sense because when the next screen upgrade comes around the box carries over to it, meaning cheaper TVs forever!
 

HD Elvis

Established Member
actually they were needed on the Kuro's (if you wanted the best image quality)...it's just that i seemed to be the lone voice saying this....which is perhaps why i have quite a few customers with Kuro's and lumagens...and i would expect worldwide there are many more. In actual fact the cms in Kuros and indeed in all Pioneer tv's is rubbish and doesn't work properly...but no-one really seemed to mention that too much:D The Kuro CMS was a 1D CMS....it was a 6 point HUE control. What is actually needed is a 6 point hue,saturation and luminance control. That hue control in the pioneers, when used causes non linearities in the greyscale that are not correctable. Pioneer, in their infinite wisdom, chose to not bother to actually fix this error in the entire time they were producting tv's and instead put their multi-point rgb gamma control in the isf interface to try to mitigate the problems use of the cms caused. (band aid anyone!) There was a way to get delta errors for colour down low but it was not the correct or ideal way. (ie turning down or up colour control)

On another note. The panasonics have a CMS control that does affect hue, saturation and luminance. The nomenclature they use suggest that this control works in HSL colourspace. This is not ideal either though but it is miles better than what Kuro did. That means that if you use it to fix colour errors at one saturation point it is quite likely it will be wrong at others. I do not know this for a fact but it wouldn't be surprising. Lumagens CMS works in linear RGB colourspace and will not induce any such errors. The reason that tv manufacturers would choose to do this maths in HSL rather than RGB is that it takes up less processing resources I believe. lumagen themselves started their CMS project for RADIANCE in HSL space but stopped and went back to drawing board when they realised it was not going to result in the reference image quality they wanted to achieve.

It might also be wise to consider the use of a lumagen not just as a means to fix issues with calibrating a display but also a way to increase the performance of the sources plugged in to it. Lumagens have superior de-interlacing and scaling to any tv. They also can take SD from a SKyHD box and make it much better.

Hope that's some use

Very enlightening Gordon, it appears you were head of your time:) I am a very big fan of Pioneer Plasma's without being a fanboy and am happy to acknowledge any flaw they may have when its from a knowledgable source such as yourself. Its good to know the reason why many are talking about the merits of pairing a Lumagen with a VT50 etc is that they are just catching on to the benefits rather than then there being any specific requirement. Certainly no more than any other Plasma display or do you think the Panny's benefit in unique ways over the Kuro's other than colour management etc?
 
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Gordon @ Convergent AV

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
well the other main benefit you get with the 50's is that if you don't have a dark room environment, or like a brighter image, you can use the lumagen to alter one of the brighter presets to be colour accurate. The ISF presets in Pioneers were not really limited in light output so that was never so much of an issue with them.
 

HD Elvis

Established Member
Hopefully this will help people better understand the benefits of a Lumagen so that they can decide whether its worthwhile to them.
 

mancs

Banned
the kuro needs a lumagen more so than the pannys due to its poor 6 point adjustment:rolleyes: :D , dont think i will bother with a lumagen , too expensive, if the price was right would be a must but im struggling getting money together for a actual vt at the moment lol.may check one of them darbys though due to the price. Wonder if it(darby) adds lume as well as sharpness and depth?
 
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fluxo

Distinguished Member
actually they were needed on the Kuro's (if
you wanted the best image quality)...

That's an interesting post, Gordon.

Is it safe to assume the Lumagen can't bypass the Panasonic's CMS. In other words,
you still get errors from the CMS, but hope to do something to the input so that the
result after the errors is acceptable?

Also, is the Lumagen outputting 8 bits per colour channel? Internally a CMS can use
more bits, but how many bits are sent over HDMI? What I'm trying to get at here is
that you might make some very fine adjustments using the Lumagen, but is some of that
lost when the signal is sent over HDMI?

Finally, isn't the main reason for using a Lumagen with this year's Panasonics the
fact that picture modes with decent calibration controls have limited light output?
 

Scooby2000

Distinguished Member
the kuro needs a lumagen more so than the pannys due to its poor 6 point adjustment:rolleyes: :D , dont think i will bother with a lumagen , too expensive, if the price was right would be a must but im struggling getting money together for a actual vt at the moment lol.may check one of them darbys though due to the price. Wonder if it(darby) adds lume as well as sharpness and depth?

Just remember, you get what you pay for with tech.
 

nabby

Distinguished Member
I posted this in the TPS forum but perhaps it's more appropriate over here.

Right, I said I'd post my thoughts today having had my 55VT50 and Lumagen Mini 3D calibrated last week by Gordon, and here they are.

For me and my eyes, the main improvements are in the following areas:

1) People look like people should if they were standing right in front of you. Now if you'd said to me in advance of the calibration that this is not the case pre-calibration, I'd have probably thought. "What's the issue now? It looks pretty good to my eyes." But, the difference is big and as people now look like they should, I feel more drawn in to the image on screen.

2) Standard def material off my Apple TV and Sky box look far better. Anything I have watched with my daughter, the CBeebies addict, looks far closer to HD quality. I've bought shows on iTunes such as The Daily Show. If you've seen the quality of the iTunes downloads of this, you'll know that a bigger screen just highlights many issues with the picture, which is American SD quality. Post-calibration, the image quality of this type of source material is vastly improved.

3) 3D images have been enhanced. To my eyes colours look more vibrant and this helps to create a more involved 3D effect.

4) Surprisingly, Blu-ray images have more depth, more pop, more wow factor, whatever similar label you want to give it. I'm currently watching Season 2 of Modern Family on Blu-ray and the images are so lifelike now, compared to pre-calibration.

Now as Gordon has alluded to in a previous post, these are the improvements I can see. It wouldn't surprise me if I notice other things as I watch more TV, particularly the Olympics and football when the new season starts. However, to your eyes, the improvements may not be as dramatic or they may not be in the same areas.

I realise and accept that much of what I have written above is subjective and uses pretty "woolly" terms of description. The issue is that the improvements I can see are hard to put into writing.

Suffice to say, when Gordon showed me before and after measurements of my screen, the amendments he had made were translated into obvious and tangible improvements in on-screen image. The science side of what these improvements are can be found in Gordon's computer. The real world benefits can be seen in my living room.

Once again, many, many thanks to Gordon for his expertise and guidance and also to the rest of you on the forums for your thoughts and opinions, which are always worth reading at least once, even if I don't agree with you
 

stucarblne

Prominent Member
I have known for a good while that my KRP could be improved further with a Lumagen, hence why i want one, (and a darbee dablet) thingie now after reading very positive things about it if used subtlety at about 45% or thereabouts.

I know that is half off topic but the Panasonic plasma, tv or monitor is the next for me most likely. In the next year or two, hopefully no more than two if something catches my eye.

But these Lumagens will be super handy to have anyway as a future tool for helping with limitations on tv's - which there will be
 

Scooby2000

Distinguished Member
I have known for a good while that my KRP could be improved further with a Lumagen, hence why i want one, (and a darbee dablet) thingie now after reading very positive things about it if used subtlety at about 45% or thereabouts.

I know that is half off topic but the Panasonic plasma, tv or monitor is the next for me most likely. In the next year or two, hopefully no more than two if something catches my eye.

But these Lumagens will be super handy to have anyway as a future tool for helping with limitations on tv's - which there will be

Do you need the Darbee too? seems a waist to me.
 

stucarblne

Prominent Member
Scooby2000 said:
Do you need the Darbee too? seems a waist to me.

Don't know for sure yet, but the low price is attractive tbh.

If it could be combined with the Lumagen without any issues then for sure, but will need to wait to hear any reports of them being ok together first.

But i would like the Lumagen first because i would like to see the benefits of that first hand before anything though.

OT again but would yourself consider the darbee thingie if it was any good Scooby ? :thumbsup:
 

Scooby2000

Distinguished Member
Don't know for sure yet, but the low price is attractive tbh.

If it could be combined with the Lumagen without any issues then for sure, but will need to wait to hear any reports of them being ok together first.

But i would like the Lumagen first because i would like to see the benefits of that first hand before anything though.

OT again but would yourself consider the darbee thingie if it was any good Scooby ? :thumbsup:

No, doesn't interest me, 250 quid for what? If I had the money I'd go Lumigen but don't believe in a magic box you just plug in. I've not read a great deal about it if honest but what I have seen doesn't bother me, a Cal will do me then like I say a lumagen if I had the money.
 

stucarblne

Prominent Member
SgtHowie said:
I've been wondering the same thing. If the performance is close then the ST plus the box of tricks would make sense because when the next screen upgrade comes around the box carries over to it, meaning cheaper TVs forever!

Certainly more accurate tv's, that's a given
 

HD Elvis

Established Member
Realise this isn't a Lumagen but wonder whether anyone who tries a Darbee Darblett on the Vt50 will see more of the RHS stripe given the effect it has on the screen.
 

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