Panasonic - 1080p 24hz. Do they exist?

Discussion in 'Panasonic TVs Forum' started by rockissponge, Sep 10, 2007.

  1. rockissponge

    rockissponge
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    Hi guys,

    Simply put: I’m looking for a 50” Panasonic 1080p plasma, that can handle 24hz signals, to go with my PS3.

    I was hoping the TH-50PZ700 would satisfy my perfection. But alas, it appears to convert the signal to 60hz.

    Then I heard about the American TH-50PZ750 model. But again, seems like a 60hz switch is done.

    So I continued my quest, and researched on the net, and now feel like my head will explode with all the info/forum posts I’ve had to read through… and yet I still do not have a definite answer.

    I suspect there isn’t one that meets my requirements yet. If this is the case, do any of you guys know of one is due?

    (I just managed to get myself a new job today, and promised myself I’d order one as a ‘well done’ gift to me!)

    Thanks for your help.
     
  2. gavinhunt`

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    No, they don't at the momement at least if you want it stated black and white in the manual. There are some posts about the PZ70 taking a 24fps feeds and others saying its does fine without the capabilty with BR / HD DVD.

    I'd go and have a look and see if you can spot any judder.
     
  3. Andy_Jack

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    I don't honestly understand why it's so important. Blu-ray movies and games via my PS3 are superb and motion judder free. What exactly are you all looking for in this 24hz holy grail?
     
  4. Peabo

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    Isn't the upcoming PF10 supposed to support it?
     
  5. kingcobbler

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    I agree I wish this 24fs would sort itself out. Is it important or not.
     
  6. rockissponge

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    I understand the 24hz-confusion... I was actually all set on getting the PZ700, but then learnt of people moaning about judder, especially in fast moving/action packed films like Casino Royale.

    If I'm going to shell out almost £2k on a screen, I want it to be pretty perfect. I'm such a obsessive, the judder would just drive me mad I think... and it's more apparent in 50" screens as I understand it. Plus, my PS3 supports 24hz output now, so I'd like to make the most of it!

    I'm in no huge rush (good things come to those... etc...) so I guess I will keep my eye on the PF10 (thanks Peabo).

    Thanks for replying guys.
     
  7. doopydug

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    Have just watched Casino Royale tonight with my missus and we spotted no judder at all on the 50PZ700 from the PS3 - are there any scenes in particular that are known to show it up?
     
  8. CHFels

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    As you can see on another thread - the "42PZ70 - a few questions if I may" thread - Panasonic is now shipping the PZ70 with a manual that specifically ticks the 1080p/24 box. But what's important is that owners are not seeing judder. :thumbsup:

    CHFels
     
  9. scorrado123

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    Judging by what i've read on this site sounds like the TH-50PZ70 is the answer !?!
     
  10. Andy_Jack

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    What he says. I have no judder at forced 24fps while watching Casino Royale on my pz70.
     
  11. rockissponge

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    Wow... really? Those last few posts have got my interest! I'd order a PZ700 in the next few weeks if it does have 24hz support.

    CHFels - Can I download this new manual with the 24hz details from the UK Panasonic website? Is it only the 42" that includes this, as ideally I'd like to pick up the 50" Panny.

    The CRoyale scenes in question were from the opening chase scene in the building site, and the chase scene on the airport runways... basically, anything with super-quick pans.

    I really appreciate the advice guys.

    Edit - I've just been over to the Panny website (http://www.panasonic.co.uk/plasma-tv/index.htm) and noticed that there are now TH50PZ70s and TH50PZ700s... what's the deal with the extra '0'!? and then there are B and E versions... it really is far to complicated!

    Edit 2 - After looking at the manual for the TH-50PZ700B, there no mention of 24hz display (Page 46)
    I also checked out the '70' models vs the '700', and couldn't tell a difference. I think my obsession for 24hz is starting to fatigue me!

    (TH50PZ700B manual at: http://techdocs.panasonic.co.uk/doc...data/EU/TH42PZ700BA/OI/777248/TQB0E0387-2.pdf)
     
  12. choddo2006

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    The 70 is newer and cheaper, and slightly less capable

    but does appear to support 24fps.
     
  13. kingcobbler

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    Just to make it more complicated isn't there the impending release of the PZ750. Will this have the best bits from both Z70 (24fps support) and the PZ700 (sound, extra hdmi etc).
     
  14. AliG

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    This has been mentioned a few times on these forums but no-one seems to have any concrete evidence.

    Of note the extra hdmi on the PZ700 is at the front so not really useful as part of a permanent setup. If the elusive PZ750 does appear, I hope it has 3 HDMIs at the rear.:smashin:

    AliG
     
  15. SAYITASITIS

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    hdmi slot will still be the same, on the front of the pz750.seen it somewhere i
     
  16. rockissponge

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    Cool - will keep an eye out for the 750... I was under the impression this was a USA only model though.

    Also, thought I would share this new article on 24hz/1080p playback with you.

    From the article itself and the comments in the forums, I feel like I will stick to waiting for 24hz playback on my screen... so the quest continues!
     
  17. rockissponge

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    Quick question related to the OP.

    Are DVD's also recorded at 24hz, like BluRay discs?

    I've never noticed any stuttering when watching DVDs on my Standard def Tv, which I'm pretty sure is 50hz. So if I've never noticed the stutter here, I'm unlikely to notice it with a display that doesn't natively support 24hz playback... right?

    (It's just I've since found out Panny won't be releasing 24hz capable displays till late 2008, and I can't wait that long!)
     
  18. Otto J

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    It appears that there's still some confusion about Panasonic's 24 fps support here, as well as in danish forums... I'd like to try to clarify this once and for all. Since I haven't posted here much, I'll start by telling you a bit about my credentials: I am the owner of a danish company called AV Precision, and I'm the market-leading calibrator in this country. I'm ISF and JKP (Joe Kane) certified. I'm being very active in the danish market, trying to get knowledge about picture quality out to the consumers. I know what 2-3 judder looks like, and what it looks like when it's not there. I'm not just another one of those "hey, that looks fine to me" guys... (no offence). I believe I'm qualified to make a _definitive_ conclusion about this issue (I haven't followed this forum, so if someone else has already done this, I'm not trying to say anyone else isn't qualified to do so, I just see that there's still confusion).

    I have, with the help of a local dealer, tested 24 fps input on a brand-new production 50PZ700E, and a brand-new production 42PZ70EA, plus the new 37" LCD. Don't know the model number... The conclusion is the same for all three models, as it has been for every other Panasonic with 1080P input: ALL current Panasonic models that accepts 1080P/24 input, converts this to 1080P/60 internally, thus creating 2-3 judder. It makes NO difference whatsoever, whether you input 1080P/24 or 1080P/60 to Panasonic tv's.

    Now, how big is this issue? Well, depends who you are, I guess. To me, it's an issue on any 1080P tv, because proper playback of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray is the sole purpose of buying such a set. However, it's not an issue that's bigger than, say, improper color decoding, or any other things that might be wrong with your set. _Please_, don't go buying some semi-crappy (or all the way crappy) LCD set, just because I told you 24 fps is an issue... :) 24 fps or not, a Panny is still a darn good set for the money.

    The whole reason that there's been so much confusion about this, is that to a lot of people, it's not an issue, or just not that big a deal. A lot of people find 60 Hz playback of 24 Hz sources just fine. So, before you take Panasonic off your shortlist, try to take a look at an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray source on the set, to see if YOU find it an issue. It'll most likely be less of an issue to most people, than the MAJOR issues that 99% of the tv's have with decent color rendition.

    That said, I strongly believe any tv-maker that produces a 1080P set without proper playback of 1080P/24, should be kicked in the nuts. Seriously, Panasonic, how hard can it really be to just do it right?
     
  19. Otto J

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    Film is recorded at 24 Hz (usually). PAL is 50 Hz, so we speed the film up to 25 Hz, and double this up to 50 Hz. Hence, no judder - just a 4% speedup that most people don't notice.

    NTSC is another story, NTSC is 60 Hz. You can't speed the film up that much, so you apply what's called 2-3 pulldown. Frame A is showed 2 times, frame B 3 times, frame C 2 times etc. This introduces some judder, as each frame is showed on screen for a different period of time. This is objectionable to some people. Whether you play back an NTSC DVD, or play an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray at 60 Hz, the issue is exactly the same. It's not a new issue, region 1 DVD's has always had this issue (unless you use a scaler with 24 or 48 Hz output, but that's another story). The new part is basically that we're starting to see a solution, that hasn't been presented before: The HD sources are true 24 Hz systems, and some playback devices allow us to watch true 24 Hz.

    Wrong. If you follow the explanation above, you'll find that you would see a 2-3 judder that's similar to NTSC DVD's, but isn't present on PAL DVD's. You should try to get an opportunity to watch an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray on a Panny set, before deciding whether or not to buy.
     
  20. Bumtious

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    Totally agree

    Been banging on about this forever.
     
  21. Merefield

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    Just vote with your wallet and buy a Pioneer. Which i see some have!

    I suggest a combination of these reasons for lack of proper 24p support so far in most sets:

    1. Lack of consumer awareness
    2. Lack of consumer focus on HD-DVD/Blu-ray
    3. Greater expense of developing/sourcing supporting video circuitry and panels

    I've held off buying a screen until one of the mainstream brands properly supports 24p.

    It certainly has surprised me how long i've had to wait.

    Whilst the Kuro's are fantastic, i personally don't wish to spend the current price premium they attract.
     
  22. ripclaw

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    The commercial Panasonic panels can take a 24Hz signal via the VGA input. However, you'll need a device like the HDFury (http://www.hdfury.com) to send a signal from the HDMI output of your hi-def player to the HDFury to the Panny. Now, what I'm not sure about is how bad the judder will be, because I've read elsewhere that you have to send a multiple of 24Hz in order to totally eliminate judder. That's where the Pioneer plasmas are so good is that they take the 24Hz signal and triple it internally to 72Hz.
     
  23. Phill1978

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    with PS3 or xbox 360 1080p you not getting judder as they are 1080p 60hz/50hz right ?

    films dont bother me as much, whats worst is that LCD seems to lose so much low detail no ammount of gamma or brightness brings it back, and its so revealing and raw that anything other than a prefect native input is shown for too many flaws and then lcd adds some more.
     
  24. rockissponge

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    OttoJ, you're info is extremely helpful. Thank you so much for taking the time to post.

    As you can probably see from my original post, I also share your sentiments in regards to Panasonic not yet providing a 24hz panel. How difficult can it be?!

    When I heard it might be until late 2008 till they support true 24hz playback, I must say I wavered, and considered buying the PZ700. But your post is right... I'm going to be a patient guy and wait it out. Only then will I know I'm getting the absolute best from my Blu-Ray discs/PS3. Panasonic are a superb make of hardware, and I know I won't be disappointed.

    Thanks again, and to everyone else who has contributed.
     
  25. Otto J

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    Correct.

    I agree, and that's why I'm pointing out that even though Panasonic should be critiziced for their lack of proper 24 Hz, it doesn't change the fact that they make some of the best sets outthere (save for Pioneer and custom solutions). Basically, one could say that this says a lot about how bad most of the TV's on the market actually are... If you start sorting out all tv's that don't conform to just a few basic demands, you'll very quickly have less than a handful of tv's to choose from... (I guess that's why I'm a PJ-a-holic... :thumbsup:)
     
  26. JeffD

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    I have a number of Region 1 DVD's and a DVD player and CRT TV that state they support NTSC, so I assume the DVD are being displayed at 60Hz. I've never noticed any judder on any of the dics I own, so does this mean I would not have a problem with HD not being displayed at a multiple of 24Hz? An example of a R1 disc I have is the Matrix, if I understand right then it's action films like this I should notice the issue, if at all.
     
  27. NonPayingMember

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    Essentially correct. R1 DVDs and HD material have exactly the same 3:2 judder. R1 material is taken from 24fps film and put onto disc using a 3:2 sequence. HD material is 24fps film, on disc at 24fps, but eventually 3:2 by either the player or the display. The end result is the same, a 24 frame signal shown at 60Hz (except of course in the case where a TV does allow 24 to be shown using 2:2 or 3:3).

    Odds are, if you hadn't read this forum you would not notice any judder. Of course what doesn't help, is that there is more than one way to put judder on material. I see plenty of setups where I activate a 24 frame mode (usually with a VP) and there is still judder in the image which is directly from the material itself. So in many cases you might be looking at judder in a scene, and thinking a 24p mode display is going to remove it when actually it is not...
     
  28. ripclaw

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    Liam / Otto J, will sending a Panny 1080p24sf help eliminate judder?
     
  29. Chris5

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    Liam,

    The following query only relates to DVI input
    -------------------------------------------

    On various posts you have claimed that the 50PF9 supports 48Hz (via VP50). Previously I have asked you whether you have seen this for yourself or just quoteing the one post that someone else put up many months ago. I am a bit suspicious of this, so I'll ask again as it is important, have you confirmed it for yourself? I'm asking because I'm probably going to get a 58PF10 myself if it will play 24Hz or 48hz smoothly.
     
  30. NonPayingMember

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    1080p24 will AVOID rather than remove any judder that might have been introduced by a 3:2 telecine sequence. However only if the TV then replays this at a direct integer multiple of 24 i.e. 48Hz, 72Hz etc. The 3:2 telecine sequence used to get 24 frame film to 60Hz is what causes this particular kind of judder.
     

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